I honestly feel like Keystones were a mistake.

HateDaddy··70 votes·2,889 views

Of all the changes this season to the different classes of champions, the itemization changes and even dynamic queue: none of this bothered me too much. Sure, the ADC rework was frustrating but I expect an entire class rework to throw balance out of whack a few patches. Same with the current Mage update taking place now, I expect the next few patches to be a bit whacky. And while I'm not super fond of dynamic queue, I do like that I get my top two roles every game. So I've learned to live with a lot, as you can see.

But to me, the one thing that was an absolute mistake that should simply be reverted are keystones. Initially I thought they would be cool but I realize now the reason we were so content with the old masteries is that they gave extra stats for a desired setup and were bland - but they weren't exactly game changing. And that sounds boring but had anyone ever thought of the alternative?

These masteries have basically only had about 3-4 be competitively good. No-Funderlords, Grasp of the Unkillable tanks that 100-0 you, Windspeakers and Fervor. You had some abuse cases like warlords but overall, these 4 masteries have been the most dominant, bond of stone had a short run. I actually think strength of ages is exactly what keystones should have been, a scaling keystone that didn't give immediate power but made your build pathes feel more flexible.

There are so many variables to consider when balancing this game and the only thing keystones have done is add another complex variable to several complex variables. They have warped the meta, they have warped what's strong and weak, they have given champions who ordinarily didn't have burst damage in their rotation an extra spell that added random damage. They gave champions who were balanced around the idea of not having sustain being a weakness. They were balanced around the idea of a champion being DPS focused, not random burst every 20 seconds. These masteries have thrown so many things out of whack because it's made several classes extremely oppressive (most notably ADCs and tanks) while leaving many of the other classes feel weaker because they can't abuse the masteries as well (mages, fighters).

I honestly think they need to be scraped next season. Just throw them out, they warp the game so much in ways you can't even feasibly balance around without making major class changes. Rethink them, I like scaling masteries like strength of ages that aren't immediately powerful and they don't just give more random damage tacked onto something at once or for the duration of a prolonged attack. Scaling is what makes them interesting and doesn't warp the game because scaling isn't assured and because of that it's not as immediately powerful.

53 Comments

Keevalroy8 votes

Nice to see people are finally realizing how much of an issue they are. "UGGH! The old masteries were boooooring though!" At least they were healthy and balanced while not causing knee-jerk reaction buffs/nerfs to champions who were otherwise fine, in addition to offering more freedom instead of this cookie-cutter bullshit.

Edit: Not to mention completely breaking some champions and rendering others with a feeling of uselessness.

Buff Jax please5 votes

Completely agree...your mastery choice should never influence the game that much, it is especially obvious when leveling a smurf around 14-20. You get matched with people who have a keystone because they are level 18 but you don't have one yet and lose lane by default.

Creas4 votes

I think the new masteries added too much power, and they didnt rebalance the rest of the game in it. Thunderlords basacly is a extra spell, but champs still have the same starting health as before thunderlords. So everybody just die quicker. Fervor of battle also adds so much extra damage to certain high attack speed champs that master yi can just go tank and still have much damage with it. It just unbalanced the game so much because they added the masteries without rebalancing all the champs.

Paroe4 votes

the keystones are either hilariously broken (Warlords, fervor, thunderlords, grasp) or worthless (deathfire touch, windspeaker, the rest). Its silly and strange just HOW much disparity there is...

i honestly feel that deathfire touch and thunderlords need to have thier scalings swapped. If it had good AP scaling it would do so, so much better considering that its fairly difficult to maintain and it does very little damage, where thunderlords scaling off of AD would make it even more favorible on AD casters because while the masteries are less combat oriented, the bonus is just that much better.

WhatDidYouSee1 votes

Death fire touch works on a lot of champions really. Jhin Varus Brand Malz etc. Windspeakers are really good on several supports, and with the new Athenes it's pretty good IMO.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Death fire touch works on a lot of champions really. Jhin Varus Brand Malz etc. Windspeakers are really good on several supports, and with the new Athenes it's pretty good IMO.

I've tried Deathfire Touch on champions like Kha'Zix and Vladimir. On the former, it is viable if you think that you will end up having long trades with enemies, since his Q actually procs the most powerful version of Deathfire Touch. However, since Kha'Zix is an assassin, Thunderlord's Decree is generally better because he will just want to burst someone down. It is important to remember that DFT scales better with AD than AP (despite dealing magic damage) and Kha'Zix can end up getting a lot of AD.

On Vlad, Deathfire Touch is better than Thunderlord's Decree not only because of his Q being single-target, non DoT, but also because Vladimir can apply it to the entire enemy team during a teamfight and do a lot more damage than if he were to go with Thunderlord's Decree.

Snake Town3 votes

{quoted}

These masteries have basically only had about 3-4 be competitively good.

idk I've seen all of them but stormrider's used competitively, but lets be real wtf even is that mastery.

Honestly I like the idea of them a lot, I would like to see a more utility based one replace stormrider's though because champs like bard don't really benefit much from any of them.

EDIT: wow okay I guess people use stormrider's lol, I've just never personally seen anyone use it in game before

Worldwyrm6 votes

I used Stormraider's on Nasus earlier. The enemy team was pretty mad. Big doge went fast.

Rook Loux13 votes

T. lords is op on bard

BioticBrony3 votes

But AP Bard Mid is the best :(

Thunderlords made him a viable midlaner.

Snake Town1 votes

I mean its definitely the best, but it's only really applicable for the early game, once people get a few items you're damage falls off substantially and it really isn't that useful

Rook Loux1 votes

Bard is a support, he really shouldn't have damage. However, he does have a lot of damage with his meeps that have theoretically infinite scaling

Snake Town1 votes

I totally agree, I'm just saying that since Tlords scales with ap and ad, and seeing that bard barely builds much ap, there doesn't seem to be a mastery that synergies very well with him all game.

Aazzlano1 votes

Thunderlords has a significant base damage and it hardly scales off of AP anyway. Also, his meep autos count as two hits so a stun and a single auto procs spellthief 3x, the aa damage, the meep damage, the q damage, and the thunderlords damage.

Snake Town1 votes

Well yeah I know how bard works, I main him

Aazzlano1 votes

....and Thunderlords is extremely powerful on Bard. To say there isn't a mastery that synergizes with him is just flat out wrong. Thunderlords is taken for the BASE damage, not the scaling.

Daxterr1 votes

{quoted}

T. lords is op on bard

If you get item 3145 on bard you can use thunderlords in 1 hit. =)

WhatDidYouSee4 votes

Stormraiders is good on quite a few champions or good against specific team comps. Ryze/Nasus/Fiddle/Talon/against team comps with little hard CC or only slows. I tried it on Rengar, just do a drive by kill and run off flashing mastery emote.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

Stormraiders is good on quite a few champions or good against specific team comps. Ryze/Nasus/Fiddle/Talon/against team comps with little hard CC or only slows. I tried it on Rengar, just do a drive by kill and run off flashing mastery emote.

Hasn't Faker used Stormraider's on Ryze?

I've tried it myself but I honestly doesn't feel it to be impactful. I like Thunderlord's more. It's my personal preference, though.

Wheatloaf1 votes

It's something that becomes useful once both you and your opponents are above a certain level of skill. Ryze's lack of escapes and quick burst play a big part in it.

WhatDidYouSee1 votes

I would hazard a guess that you aren't doing Ryze's combo to maximum efficiency, a good Ryze doesn't smash keyboard. I'm not sure what the combo is tho, don't play Ryze. And Thunderlords/Stormraiders depends on the opponent you're facing.

Asyde1 votes

{quoted}

Stormraiders is good on quite a few champions or good against specific team comps. Ryze/Nasus/Fiddle/Talon/against team comps with little hard CC or only slows. I tried it on Rengar, just do a drive by kill and run off flashing mastery emote.

Stormraiders Ekko is really fun to play. (particularly if your AP Ekko).

Go in for the burst, pop your passive and run your way out of there with like 700+ movespeed.

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Stormraider's Surge is hilarious on some assassins and burst mages if you already have the damage to gib someone. It's quite nice on Nasus too when you are fighting squishy targets.

I've seen Rengar take it and the movement speed after bursting a target is hilarious when combined with his ultimate's movement speed.

Doesn't Bard work really well with Thunderlord's to augment his harass?

Strength of the Ages is a staple for many junglers too.

Honestly, I think the only really weak one is Bond of Stone.

BluePolarizer2 votes

I would only ever get Stormraiders on Hecarim, Nasus or Rengar.

Hecarim because if you burst 1 squishy with it, the MS steroid also gives you a big AD steroid (up to like 30-40, like a level 11 Vayne Final Hour) and Master Yi style slow resist that allows you to clean up everyone else.

Nasus because if you E-Q a squishy you are no longer kiteable and get to do another Q.

Rengar because instead of trading 1 for 1 in most assassinations you now trade 1 for 0.

Every other assassin or fighter doesnt do enough damage or actually needs the early burst more than MS.

resumed1 votes

it's really good on mordekaiser as well, to make up for his lack of cc

Spaceman5pff1 votes

I honestly don't think bond of stone is weak at all. I like to take it instead of Grasp when I am playing a non-bully toplaner into a bully toplaner, especially after the changes made it harder to stack up a proc. I also generally take it on tanky supports instead of Strength of Ages since it gets tough to grab the last few stacks as support.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Stormraiders is great for ryze/galio/vlad/ niche and fun moments.

Pros just don't use it cause stormraiders is more of a soloQ keystone when they're already premade and can rely on their team more.

Although there were a few matches where a patheon took stormraiders before and had a lot of success because he could stick onto enemies easier and dodge counter attacks faster after he engaged.

Teridax683 votes

I agree that keystone masteries have significantly warped the game. Average damage feels way too high early on precisely because of Thunderlord's / Grasp, and in the end we're back to the same issue with old masteries, in that all of these effects are mostly geared towards the early game and add little in the way of interesting gameplay later on.

To be honest, though, I don't think reverting to the old mastery system or implementing scaling masteries is the way to go, and I feel that at this point the best course of action would be to scrap the mastery system entirely: it adds a lot of complexity but only very little real gameplay or choice (there's usually a set mastery path for any given champion, or subset of champions, so you're not really choosing masteries for a champion so much as remembering which setup's optimal for them), still struggles with providing visible power, and makes the game significantly more difficult to balance when it's got a lot of moving parts already. It also just creates yet another barrier to entry for newer players through both its complexity and level requirement, in a game that should be trying as hard as possible to improve its new player experience. If the value of masteries comes from customization and access to unique stats and effects, I'd much rather start every game with the total gold value of masteries as additional gold, which I could then spend freely on the stats and effects I'd want, and/or with stat compensations given to champions who have become dependent over time on certain masteries to function.

The above reasoning also applies to runes too. If every champion started the game with +9 armor, +12 magic resist and enough gold for 2 extra basic items, or just ~1k extra starting gold, we'd have just about as much choice in which stats to fill out on at the start of the game, if not more (there'd be an extra layer of choice in sacrificing raw stats for unique item effects, for example).

Atanchan2 votes

I pretty much agree with this.

Although I can live with masteries and I do actually like the keystones, as most of them nowadays do actually act as "mini-abilities" rather than +stats and they fill a similar spot as summoner spells, where they can aid in the definition of a play style or put a focus on a strategy.

Runes, on the other hand, I would just love to see scrapped entirely. They really don't add anything to the game besides reducing the starting stats of champions until you shove ridiculous amounts of IP into the furnace, nor do the way they're set up really allow them to be changed into anything besides that. I'd be more than happy with just the mastery tree being our pre-game set up.

ABlueQuaker3 votes

Keystones are actually fine now. AD Carries usually run Fervor or Warlord's. Mages run Deathfire or Thunderlord's. Junglers like to go Strength of Ages. Top laners go Grasp of the Undying. Tank Supports run Bond of Stone. Mage Supports run Windspeaker's.

They all have their roles and champions. The only thing that dictates the popularity of Keystones is what champions are popular at the time.

I use all Keystones on a regular or semi-regular basis.

Old Man Teeto2 votes

Season is a little heavy on the damage, it's why bruisers kinda died since you don't survive to do much with a 50/50 split of damage/tank.

Overall, they need to add some better, defensive options for keystones and even-row masteries. For some reason they gutted veterans scars insanely hard, it's unpicked now entirely, and there's pretty much zero other true defensive stat masteries that a non-tank committed champion would take. (Tough Skin, but it's a hard sell going into Resolve with anything but support/jungle/heavy tank)

Caítlyn2 votes

Warlords on Graves is retarded. I saw him healing for 500.

ZT Xperimentor3 votes

Warlords just shouldn't apply against minions & monsters; tired of nearly killing any ranged physical carry, they attack a minion twice and are back to full health.

ARequestOfDeath1 votes
ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Viable? They've been the ONLY irreplaceable class since season 2. Mages, tanks, assassins, supports, & fighters have all been repeatedly swapped out for eachother over the years as the meta changed; yet ranged physical carries have always been a staple of the team. They never needed these unbalanced masteries to function in the first place.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Apparently important enough to be a joke, but not enough to be known?

ARequestOfDeath2 votes

The main symbol/emote of Twitch.tv. It represents sarcasm, irony, puns, jokes, and trolls alike.

Jesus is Savior2 votes

They were a mistake, yes, but they'd never revert to the old masteries.... So I'd rather they keep them. They'll fuck it up even more if they remove them.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Vk5ixUE,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-05-13T10:59:54.914+0000)

They were a mistake, yes, but they'd never revert to the old masteries.... So I'd rather they keep them. They'll fuck it up even more if they remove them.

We can wait until the season 7 so that they will add new masteries.

Spoofghoul2 votes

they made tanks stronger what are u on m8 i want some of that

previous masteries were much better for tanks because they made you ALOT more tanky

9kPluzZ2 votes

"These masteries have basically only had about 3-4 be competitively good. " Wtf are you talking about? Literally all of them are used... Even in LCS JhinPantheon deathfire Alistar bond of stone 50/50 on adcs : fever/ warlords Most jg: strength of the ages, but many other options and storm raiders is getting really popular of fiddles

your full of shit mate, they are all used competitively.

NowTHISIsPodrcng2 votes

YES. thunderlords is glitchy af. I've had people use one ability and it goes off. I'm not talking about a DPS ability, but like a leblanc's q. just random shit like that. A Lee killed me with 1st q becuase thunderlords went off. WTF?

deadlychuck2 votes

Riot has repeated so many of the same mistakes that world of warcraft has made. By adding in these keystones, they are basically forcing you to go to the bottom of the tree, claiming they want the talents to feel like they are important. No, they shouldn't be actively important. They should sway a champion's base stats in a direction, based on what you (the player) wants, not synergize with your champion.

The on top of that, because of the limited number of keystones, they are actively limiting their design space, because any champion who doesn't have a good amount of synergy with any of the keystones is virtually worthless.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

started playing in s5. tho never even looked at the masteries of that season. they looked convulted. continued playing without them. and used s6 masteries when they came out. then i looked at videos of the old masteries where they gave you stats. i liked that more than the current playstyle focused ones. i mean i want to play a squishy champion but instead of going in the damage tree i wanna get tankiness.i can't do that here. everything compliments your kit. masteries don't add anything to your champion they just do things based off how you play which i really don't like. they don't fill your needs rather add things that might not be necessary in the game. and favor certain situations depending on which masteries you have instead of consistently giving you what you want tankiness or damage or utility.

Fovere1 votes

Some of the older masteries were powerful as well.

The keystones just put the power into single trade off abilities. I like the system, if the masteries are too powerful then they could be brought down a bit. Plenty of old masteries got nerfed as well.

And Ryze in particular loves stormraiders

Shenmue1 votes

balance what do you mean ?

tXQbsPrjN51 votes

Path of exiles keystones give both and buff and a nerf, which forces you to make a meaningful decision based on how you wish to play the game, and that's how league's keystones should've been designed. I dunno if he really is that simple but league's current keystones don't promote "different playstyles", which is what meddler said was the point of these keystones. Tacking on 200 magic damage on a Zed rotation doesn't change anything Zed's doing, it just makes him more obnoxious. Now if thunderlords gave you more burst in exchange for something, anything, then yes the keystones would actually serve a meaningful purpose.

L0ve Is Blue1 votes

R.I.P. Soraka who got totally sejuani'd because of the keystones

More from Gameplay

More by HateDaddy