Let's talk magic penetration and Tanks

PhantomGG··4 votes·1,207 views

Maokai +item 3065 +item 3111 +item 3193+standard health stacking items =no mage can touch me

At the moment, mages lack any real answer to this. For you see, what seperates mages from AD based champions, is that AD based champions despite what people say, are pretty good at killing tanks. The reason for this, is largely because, AD based champions are capable of relying on 2 forms of damage. Casting spells/abilities and auto attacks while many of them having passive abilities to help them kill tanks faster. Vayne W Zed passive Fiora her entire fucking kit is designed to kill tanks Yasuo Ultimate and crit based MasterYi true damage Jhin 4th shot KogMaw his everything. Now this isn't necessary about "are these champions great killing tanks" this is more so about, they can handle tanks better than mages, for they have more than 1 way to deal damage. A mage however, and even AP assassins are hard core destroyed by a team that is mostly made up of tanks. The large reason for this is because, unlike their AD counter parts who can rely on both autos and spells, a mage can only rely on a spell combo rotation. So if some baddie on the enemy team is stacking magic resist items and health, a mage will do quite laughable damage to said person. The easiest solution an AP champion has for this? Well, simply get fed before the tank does. (far easier said than done)

Now frankly this is caused by 1 major thing, while build diversity has improved on mages vs what it use to be a year or so ago, it still has yet to improve to the level it could be at.

item 3135 item 3020 item 3151 are the only magic penetration items in the game while item 3001 can realisticly only be bought by tanks or supoprts or as a late game defensive item for mages if they feel they need one

Now let us look at the options AD counter parts have. For the sake of saving time and to avoid debates, I will be focusing on the counter parts of mages, assasins and fighters.

item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 item 3153 item 3147 item 3142 item 3814

Now I know what people say, and yes it's true, Lethality is better for killing squishy targets. However..to say if a Zed who has the following build.

Zed BUILD: item 3117 item 3147 item 3142 item 3036 item 3071 item 3153

To say that the 36 Lethality at level 18 wasn't doing any work to help him kill Maokai , would be a lie. Infact at this point unless the maoki was stacking every armor item in the game onto himself, the zed should be able to handle the maoki now in a one v one scenario just fine. Now zed is also not the only person who can go this build. Talon JarvanIV Kayn Rengar Riven Irelia are all capable of building simmiliar and it DOES help a lot. (key word simmiliar, i'm aware each champ has his or her own needs and situatinos on each game ask for their own build)

Granted though the difference was assassins and fighters really needed these items, for it was getting to the point they were useless champions for they would just fall off so hard, so fast. Which is what brought the demand for Riot to invent more options. Now what made the difference here is that lethality also helped these characters be good at fighting both squishies and tanks, and it took a while for Riot to find a math formula they were satisfied with that pleased both us and them in terms of balance. However mages can easily avoid this problem

Mages also differ though in the sense that mages have and always will be in many metas a very viable class, but the issue stands, that tanks simply destroy mages, and mages are in need of build variety options to handle it. One of the major joys that items provide to this game is to give players a way to problem solve difficult situations. If scenario A is happening than what is the most optimal solution in how to solve it? Items help give you answers, they add to that problem solving equation Which is why, an item that focuses on shredding magic resist while doing lack luster damage to squishies, would be so very helpful for mages while giving them a choice.

"do i want to nuke the adc, or do i want to shred the tank?"

14 Comments

Best princess EU3 votes

{quoted}

Maokai +item 3065 +item 3111 +item 3193+standard health stacking items =no mage can touch me

maokai counters mages

{quoted}

At the moment, mages lack any real answer to this.

mages are not supposed to kill tanks period play hypercarry AP if you want to, riot should not imbalance the game because you don't want to pick Vladimir Karthus Azir

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

maokai counters mages

mages are not supposed to kill tanks period play hypercarry AP if you want to, riot should not imbalance the game because you don't want to pick Vladimir Karthus Azir

This basically. Mages are designed to Burst, which isn't really that great against High Health targets. Your best bet at melting Tanks as AP is pretty much a DPS battle mage like Vlad, Swain, Kathus, Ryze, Cass, etc.

Arguably you could address items like Liandry's which are suppose to counter %HP stacking. But those items are going to be balanced around their greatest abusers. (The DPS tank melters I just mentioned.)

HeresyHorus3 votes

maokai counters mages mages are not supposed to kill tanks period

Who doesnt counter Mages ?

Mages are "supposed" to counter ADCs, but when any ADC can kill u with 3 Crit autos under 1.5 sec before u have the chance to aim ur shit or even before ur skills can finish their cast animations and travel time to actually hit the ADC ... who counters who ?

want to pick Vladimir Karthus Azir

Karthus does not work period.

Checj my ARAM games this day, i randomed Karthus ( with a full AP team except MonkeyKing ) agaisnt DrMundo Rammus Teemo with item 3022 item 3065 item 3091 I coumdnt even lower Teemo below 40% hp before he killed me 1v1 even tho i had item 3020 item 3151 item 3135 item 3027 item 3040 , i needed 2 guys help to kil him.

and all of us ( 4 AP champs ) couldn't kill neither DrMundo nor Rammus when we tried to focus 1 of them at a time.

Karthus is out of that list for sure.

Best princess EU3 votes

{quoted}

Who doesnt counter Mages ?

who else has 8 sec cd %max hp healing that gets reduced by 4 sec each times he gets hit by a spell?

{quoted}

Mages are "supposed" to counter ADCs, but when any ADC can kill u with 3 Crit autos under 1.5 sec before u have the chance to aim ur shit or even before ur skills can finish their cast animations and travel time to actually hit the ADC ... who counters who ?

Mages are supposed to bring utility and burst period

they're not supposed to counter any kind of class they're a bunch of different champions

And ADCS will die in 0.75 sec if they stand in front of me as Syndra

{quoted}

Karthus does not work period.

I lol'ed

https://i.gyazo.com/f4abcb18b1c33ac601585b9329ac7ca6.png

{quoted}

Checj my ARAM games this day

first idc about aram second your games are not synonym of what should happen in the balance departement

HeresyHorus1 votes

First things first, know that i am totally against the idea of "Hard Countering" by picks or items.

I am fine with "Soft countering" as it can be circumvented by skill and it is necessary for champs variety.

who else has 8 sec cd %max hp healing that gets reduced by 4 sec each times he gets hit by a spell?

U are missing a bigger picture here.

While Maokai passive is indeed powerful , what else does he have ? ... and he needs to auto something to proc it.

DrMundo for example has his passive, Tenacity, % MR boost and his R and all of them are easier for him to proc than Maokai passive.

Mages are supposed to bring utility and burst

Almost everyone has utility, even those who are not supposed to have it ...

they're not supposed to counter any kind of class they're a bunch of different champions

Those are Supports who are supposed to be neutralizers/equalizers, not Mages.

And ADCS will die in 0.75 sec if they stand in front of me as Syndra

Syndra Veigar Annie ( not always ) are the only Mages i can see that do still work as intended, they are hogged tho by having item 3089 being shit as it is now.

All of them have the same problem Crit + Attack speed ADCs have which is "get out of my range or get bursted with no counterplay" ( but unlike ADCs, they do have other restrictions ) which is why people whine about them.

Knowing Riot tendency to nerf Mages, lets see how long they will remain functional.

Hint : Nullifying Orb rune.

I lol'ed

Posting an overall winrate is too shallow to hold credit, u need to look deeply at the details.

In general ( still too shallow but at least more reasonable than just posting that winrate ) Mages are good only against other Mages, and while Mages are still most popular in mid lane ( many things affect how popular a champ is other than performance ) no wonder Karthus have a balanced winrate against them.

first idc about aram

Ur opinion doesn't mean ARAM cant have a balance value.

second your games are not synonym of what should happen in the balance departement

U said Karthus works against Tanks right ?

So logically when i pick him into Tanks but he ends up not working it is cuz either i played him wrong or u thought wrong about him.

Tell me where did i play him wrong ? ... i got item 3020 item 3151item 3135, I landed my W ( didn't matter cuz of stacked Tenacity ) and many Qs on him ( cuz he made a straight Beeline toward my ass and didn't bother to dodge anything, tho i admit i have missed a couple of Qs but it happened cuz i was actually dodging his own Qs ) and when i finally got him below 80% and had a glimmer of hope, he used his R, healed up, sped up and catched up to me ( neither of us had summoner 4 ) then it was over.

Tell me, if Karthus truly counter Tanks as u said, where did i play him wrong ?

If not than that leaves us with the other logical answer.

I agree with u that Vladimir counters Tanks cuz of his damage + lifsteal ( dont know about Azir tho, never randomed him against Tanks before ) but Karthus ? ...

Also i am not a Mage main, i am an AD main and i know what ADCs ( melee/ranged ) can do to Tanks.

ReySolomon2 votes

I mean duskblade has oracle censor so why can't ludens have one?

PhantomGG2 votes

{quoted}

I mean duskblade has oracle censor so why can't ludens have one?

I feel this was designed in the nature assassins were designed to somewhat lose lane phase but be great roamers, but wards heavily counter them.

ReySolomon1 votes

{quoted}

I feel this was designed in the nature assassins were designed to somewhat lose lane phase but be great roamers, but wards heavily counter them.

Hmm, I didn't think of that.

Red Riding Cape2 votes

While I don't think that mages should be dominant against tanks, I do agree that there should at least be some option to deal with them. I don't think that this option should be optimal in most situations- just in ones where the enemy team is composed heavily of tanks. I would love to see Liandry's changed so that the % max HP damage is higher and instead of giving flat MR pen, the MR shred should be % based and over time, sort of like an AP black cleaver. It could either shred as the burn occurs, or it could just be the same as black cleaver but for magic damage. I don't know what the best option would be, but I think reworking Liandry's in some way similar to this would be a great idea.

GrievousFetus1 votes

Killing the tank is the ADC's job. Mages are not meant to kill tanks implicitly by design. You're basically upset scissors doesn't beat both paper and rock.

PhantomGG2 votes

{quoted}

Killing the tank is the ADC's job. Mages are not meant to kill tanks implicitly by design. You're basically upset scissors doesn't beat both paper and rock.

"you're basically upset"

I main zed bruh Zed I'm inlove with the fact my shitty mage counter parts for the first time ever aren't having fun. lol, i'm just not biased, simple as that. What I love in game does not mean everyone else is having fun with it.

GrievousFetus2 votes

I'm not sure why you would bring up AD assassins as a point of comparison when assassins are just as bad at killing tanks as mages are.

HeresyHorus1 votes

No, Assassins arent bad at killing Tanks.

Zed with item 3031 item 3046 item 3812 item 3147 item 3036 + situational busts tank with his ult almost as good as he busts squishies ( u dont need ult to bust squishies, just 2 autos ).

I can easily do a +2000 damage ults finishers ( cuz they flash away, otherwise i have no problem staying on them ) against Tanks when i set on them for its full duration pumping Crits on their sorry ass while lifestealing all their tiny damage ( item 3046 item 3812 ) like nothing.

RookPusher1 votes

Maokai's old VO's had a "wreckless mages" quote...why use him first?

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