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Only reason new champions seem OP (Generally)

Guy Fox Teemo··8 votes·836 views

Is because all off them have power outside of just being fed, they don't have super simplistic kits like Annie, they have complex kits with everything interacting with eachother, and thats a GOOD thing. They're better then most other champions because champions like Annie, Cho'gath, Mundo, Veigar, etc. Have for to simplistic kits to be balanced, its either give them a shit ton of stats or they won't be strong at all. Everything with older champions is all stats, none of them require much mechanical skill, you just kinda push the buttons with no real thought on when and how in a fight to use them, you just spam all and hope for the best. (Annie) So this causes them to be relatively weak to the newer champions because new champions, generally don't have super high scaling's, everything they do is all mixed together in some fun and unique way. They don't need just super high ass scaling's to do damage, they can just outplay you.

So please stop with all this "Overloaded" bull crap, simple champions just don't work and never will work, as they're to simple, and simple is hard to balance and you know that.

33 Comments

just a memory3 votes

Complexity =/= good design.

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

Better then a binary simple designs like annies.

P: Stun Q: Auto lock damage W: Instant Aoe Damage E: Stats, and some recoil damage. R: Aoe damage, (Bear only part of her kit thats unique)

just a memory2 votes

{quoted}

Better then a binary simple designs like annies.

Simplicity =/= Bad Design.

It is true that Annie is somewhat Binary 1v1, either she kills you in one round of spells or she does not, IF she can STUN you. However, being binary is not necessarily bad. Nor does it mean that there is not counterplay to Annie's abilities.

However, please remember it is a team game, and Annie is only 1 of 5 champions on a team. Her ultimate (with or without stun) is a game changing .

Annie's current design is a necessity in the game. Annie as-is is necessary because of mobility creep, because of all the Champions with dashes and multiple movement abilities, such as Kalistas, Yasuos, Lucians, Fizzes, etc... Annie is one of the few Champions left in the game who tell these champions to "SIT STILL" for at least 1 second. And it is all because she has a Targeted stun with a Passived Q.

Simplicity =/= Bad Design. Complexity =/= Good Design.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Complexity, when well thought out is a good , and considering Riot takes about 9 months for each champion now, I'd say there well thought out. So yes in my view on Riots side Complexity = Better Design, Simplicity can be good but thats generally a lot harder to achieve, even Velkoz is pretty complex when you compare him to others.

WarlockLaw1 votes

The thing with Annie is that she gets caught without her cd's up or her stun she dies to a lot. A lot of champions with basic designs have to be more cautious of being caught out.

Newer champs tend (keyword here) to have competing damage with older champs but with a good amount of mobility and at least 2 passive effects. The reason such champs get called "overloaded" is because they don't seem to sacrifice enough for what they CAN do.

When was the last time Karthus or Veigar or Brand were played mid consistently? Why isn't their strong late game and aoe teamfight presence strong enough to make up for their lack of mobility?

Prospector Pete2 votes

Fizz Zed Vayne Can all outplay you

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

From Zed onward I'd consider them all "New Champions" as in none of them have binary simple kits

50000000000000002 votes

Simple champs are hard to balance? Why? I'd say it's easier. Also, simple champions like Singed, Amumu, or Swain are pretty balanced and people don't QQ about them. Mechanical complexity isn't what makes a champion well-designed.

What you're saying is that utility makes the new champions seem overpowered. While utility allows comebacks, having a lot of utility and damage means that if they're ahead, they can't be shut down. And that's not a good design.

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

Singed and Swain aren't very good or popular at all in the current meta, you'll only see them doing well in lol elo (generally) Amumu is good because his ult is amazing. And no simple champs are harder to balance because they either have damage or no damage (Or tankiness etc.), theres no out play potential, if the champ doesn't have enough damage, or whatever of a certain stat there TERRIBLE, they don't come back and they don't do well, why is that? Because they're to simple to be good with, you can be a annie main but you can't really get better at annie that much more then a gold player if your challenger, in terms of mechanics. Because there to simple. Making it difficult to balance champions.

50000000000000002 votes

Well, this isn't FPS. Higher rank shouldn't solely mean better mechanics. Players should be rewarded for learning strategy just as much as improving mechanically. You know Annie Bot, but there are also people who main Taric in high elo successfully. Low mechanical skill cap isn't a bad thing, nor is it harder to balance.

For example, most of the new champions/reworks were overtuned at release, and even after series of nerfs they were strong. RekSai Ekko Azir Darius This means that they're harder to balance, not easier. They have a lot of stuff in their kits, and so nerfing one ability means that the champion might still be overpowered. On the other hand, Bard was very weak at release, both because people aren't used to playing him/with him, and because his numbers were undertuned. He got a bunch of buffs until he started seeing decent winrate. Still showing how complex champions are harder to balance.

Outplaying isn't just dashing around everywhere dodging skillshots and doing tons of burst damage. We're used to seeing outplay montage of Zed, Yasuo, Riven, Vayne, etc., but there's also CC, teamwork, positioning, etc. That's all outplaying. For example, Annie can counterplay spell shields by holding onto her Pyromania stacks up to 3, popping spell shield with one ability then stunning the enemy with another. That's outplaying. A grouped up enemy following Amumu can be baited into his ultimate followed by a bad teamfight. That's outplaying. A low health Singed baiting the enemy to follow him is outplaying. And for all of these examples, they can do it even if they're behind. A fed Riven/Yi/Katarina/Fiora noobstomping in 1v5 is technically outplaying, sure, but that's not the only kind of outplaying.

Anyway, back to balance. It's easier to balance an Annie than for example, Yasuo, because you can just nerf or buff Annie's problem ability. Maybe she's charging her stun too easily with her E? You can raise its CD or mana cost. Maybe her waveclear is too weak? You can buff her W damage. For Yasuo, it's a different story. After his Q cooldown became static 4 seconds instead of 5~4 seconds, that meant not only is it easier for Yasuo to charge his knockup, Yasuo players are now incentivized to put points into his other spells. Since he also gains CDR on his Q from his attack speed, that means that the developers also need to look at his itemization before buffing/nerfing him. Because his kit is more complex, it's more difficult to buff/nerf him correctly.

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

Nope, they aren't harder to balance.

1: Ekko was never really overpowered, people just didn't know how to play him, slightly overtuned on release (LIKE VERY SINGLE , other champion ever released (Besides velkoz). 2: The rest of you post has nothing to do, with what I'm talking about, I'm saying newer champions seem op compared to old ones because of their outplay potential and skill involved while almost all olds ones have been nerfed significantly in someway, because it's either damage or no damage. Which isn't health for the game. 3: They'res more to it then mechanical skill, but were just talking about the champions themselves, not a players skill level. 4: Complex champions are easier to balance, them being complex wouldn't make it difficult since they made the champion, and spent 9 months on it. It's not like they don't know there strengths and weakness's and they very well will right after they hit live since a couple 100,000 games. Is a insane amount of data. Anyways back to my point, there easier to balance because they have more leverage, they aren't just gonna become super OP or UP, because of a buff or nerf, because they have other ways of balancing other then just simple CD increase or Lower this damage.

There's a reason, aren't played in the lcs Amumu Brand Chogath Darius DrMundo Fiddlesticks Garen Malphite Katarina Nasus Riven Pantheon Rammus Shaco Singed Soraka Sona Talon Tryndamere Udyr Veigar Volibear Warwick XinZhao Zilean

They're to simple and easy to outplay, and unless they're super OP and strong because of recent changes, they'll never see play if that, maybe one game a year. (I May be wrong on a few, as I don't want LCS all the time.)

Tl;dr If the simple champions isn't blatantly overpowered, then there crap because of how easy they are to beat.

VardenSalad1 votes

Learning strategy.

WAHAHAHAHA. Have you seen the number of people who complain about getting blown up after walking through their unwarded jungle? Do you remember the number of people complaining about Veigar cage because staying away from him and making tanks and bruisers bait his CC was too hard?

People want to be able to get caught and instantly press a button for a get-out-of-jail-free card every single time. The amount of prep work and time put into drawing people into a trap, getting them low enough to assassinate them, clearing wards, roaming is all lost on people who want to play squishy champs and never die. Because Riot has never attempted to convince its playerbase that dying in this game is not the end of the world, people expect it to never happen no matter what champ or role they're playing.

In my opinion, this game is currently at a point where the least number of champs are competitively viable and it is only moving farther away from parity.

50000000000000001 votes

My quote was

Players should be rewarded for learning strategy just as much as improving mechanically.

And based on what you said like warding and baiting spells, I'd say my point stands. People complaining about not learning because they don't try to learn has nothing to do with my point.

Big Lincoln2 votes

i actually think they are decently designed. some of them anyway

there's a good space for simple champions as long as they're appropriately limited. Chogath - low mobility, high mana costs, but very versatile despite his simple kit. one of my favorite champs to play, honestly

warpenguin5551 votes

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 also the fact that nobody know quite how to pay against them, and about half of that wont even try to learn so they come here and get pissed

and thats how QQ threads are born XD

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

Annie is OP. I would rather face Ekko, Kalista, and release Rek'sai than Annie. Fuck Annie.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Whenever I see some guy talk about how godly champs are for their mechanical skill I check their rank badge. I see no rank badge here.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

I'm Gold II if your wondering :)

Meep Man1 votes

That's my exact point. Their kits seem overloaded, but really the old kits actually should seem underloaded, yet on the same power level. This is actually a worse thing since that usually makes their kits very reliant on one thing. (Annie with Passive Tibbers and Amumu with ultimate in general although Amumu is pretty balanced I'd say)

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

I get what your trying to say but i don't really agree with it. Just because a champion isn't overloaded doesn't mean they loose reliability when not fed. Take your Annie example, you think she's useless when not fed or even behind? No matter how poorly you do with Annie she always has an instant aoe stun that provides massive utility for her team.

Also look at people like Azir and Ekko who are supposedly extremely overloaded yet the are both performing terribly. Its seems like just because your overloaded doesn't make it any easier to win.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

I never said a champion has to be overloaded, I said they need complexity to add levers of balance, a champion who's soley balanced on how high there cds are, or just damage, isn't good and doesn't tend to work out well they either become over powered of incredibly weak. Due to them needing harsh nerfs as they get to many rewards for no skill involved at all.

And where did you get Ekko and Azir are under performing? These guys are pick or ban in LCS, there kits are just difficult to master and when 60% of ranked players are bronze, They don't have the skill to do well with them making there stats look like shit. And no it doesn't make it easier to win it makes it HARDER, but gives you more rewards for doing well, you shouldn't be able decimate a whole team like annie does, by just face rolling theres no skill you just mash and hope you do damage.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Azir/Middle <- Azir http://champion.gg/champion/Ekko/Middle <-Ekko

You should know that the LCS is played on several patches behind, the most recent being 5.16 when were getting ready for 5.18

You said over loaded champions are easier to win with than binary champions because they can do more while behind, in which isn't particularly true. Azir and Ekko are considered extremely overloaded for midlaners while Annie is considered binary. Yet Annie wins more often them with a simpler kit which this whole thread is about stating isn't possible because they don't have as much impact while behind as a overloaded champion does. Which is no true.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

If you read the post, like actually read it you could see the text "So please stop with all this "Overloaded" bull crap" Don't make up things I didn't say. And no I didn't say there easier to win with I never said that, I said there better champions because of the complexity and depth in them, adding to more outplay potential. Meaning this champion kinda sucks if you aren't good with them, but if you are it adds so much more rewards, for you actually playing WELL, not just playing annie, and mashing face, and hoping for this best. Please stop making up things, and so what they are playing on different patchs? The champions have been changed much and Azir has been at an extremlly low win rate since release, in SOLO QUEUE.

People don't know how to play Azir and they don't know how to play Ekko causing for more losses because inexperienced players jump right in. And yes annie wins more often because it's easier to pull off, while Azir can do A WHOLE lot more then annie can during the course of a game, its much more difficult to pull off.

I have over 3000 games played over the course of almost 3 years, I don't like using this argument but by the looks of your account you don't seem to be a very experienced player, so I don't think you have much say in this argument as you haven't even fully experienced what every champion does fully.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

You don't have to "pull that card" with me. You been playing for 3 years and still don't know where to find basic statistics on champions or what patch the LCS is on. And since you look up my profile I decided to take a look at yours, 3000 games and only silver $ and I'm not experienced enough?

But that not the point of the conversation. Yolu are claiming simple champions do not work, and over the coarse many simple champions such as Ryze, Fiora, Garen, ect had to be reworked for doing to well and being considered anti fun. Your own example from the original post isn't even good because you claim Annie is some how inferior to the new champs because of how simple she is. This is just not true its the reason she has remained a reliant competitive pick and solo q champion since the begging.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

1: I know exactly where to find all the statistics I don't even know why thats relevant to the conversation.

2: Yes Annie is infact inferior to many champions, because she's limited, she only stays a powerhouse currently because of how absurd her stats, are like I said, if you pay attention to anything I say at ALL, Simple champions are difficult to balance because the are either OP, or UP. Even then annie can be easily out played and only stays relevant in the LCS, as a support because every 5 minutes she can flash tibbers destroying a team, besides that she's never played.

3: Yes, I have over 3000 games (actually more now that I think about it probably 3400) 2300 of them were in normals , 1000 of them have been ranked, about 500 last year about 600 this year. I'm sorry I'm a slow learner and but either way thats irrelevant , I obviously know more about the game then you and have had MUCH more experience, so I'm not going to even continue this since you don't seem to be educated enough to talk about this topic, you probably haven't even played all the champions at least once.

So yes simple champions just flat out around almost all the time don't work, their the champions that flip between being an instant pick or ban, or a champion never seeing daylight.

Also, yes LCS is played several patchs behind, but none of those patchs if I remember would have any changes to drastically change whether the champions good or not. Azir and Ekko are incredibly you just seem to go off pure stats rather then actually playing and watching how good the champion can be.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

You asked how was Azir and Ekko are weak, it takes 5 seconds to find out Azir is currently the worst rated mind laner with a 41% win rate and ekko is alomst in the bottom 5.

What is with this simple champions are hard to balance statement you keep nagging on? Name one "complex" Champion that is easy to balance, and is not either too strong or too weak.

Also having three thousand games and still being sivler doesn't make you more knowledge able about the game. In fact it implies the opposite, since you have had this much time and still can't climb above average. Being that silver 5 is the current average of the majority of the player base, you've had this much time and still cant get beyond mediocre?

And what good does it do to discuss a champs strength as seen on the LCS when they are playing on patches that don't have current live balance changes in affect. Does no good to talk about the strength of a champion being played on a previous version of the game.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

I'm done lol, you don't seem to know anything about the Ranked system and how it works, and how champions work in this game. You'll learn when you get better, :), rather not have an argument against someone who holds no merit or say in something they don't know enough about.

YCitizenSnipsY1 votes

I'm sorry but just cant take somebody thats been bronze/silver for 3 years discrediting my game knowledge serious. Before you go slinging insults around I think you should get a better understanding of the ranked system and how champions work if you've put in three years and are still average. People can climb to diamond in less than 100 games, you have put in 1000 and still have nothing to show for it.

If you were half the expert on champion design and balance you seem to think you are I'm sure you could at least play one of these "complex" champions with all there additional benefits to enough success to actually achieve something.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

Your funny Lol, Discrediting your game knowledge lol, you probably think YI is OP. xD

Lugg1 votes

I understand where you are coming from, but you have it completely backwards. Simple is easy to balance, that's why it's simple. Overloaded is way harder to balance because they have so many more options to play around other champions.

Look at Ekko as an example. He has so much in his kit, that you have to basically make one of his abilities completely useless to get him anywhere close to balanced. When a champ has an answer to everything you can throw at him/her, you have to make a weakness that can be exploited.

Catastrop1 votes

OP literally said champions before Zed's release aren't considered new champions so they're all simple, meanwhile Draven Elise Syndra Khazix Zyra Jayce. I'm not saying I disagree with you(also not saying I agree with you), but you should re-think your idea of "Every champion before Zed is simple."

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

Yes, champions before Zed aren't very new. Also say it with me you can do it "GENERALLY" binary champions. GEN-ER-A-LLY

XLC1 votes

I really, really want to post this on every single 'QQ no skill' champ thread... (Annie vlad etc) (tl;dr rage inducing champs slightly healthy to give new players a chance.)

Slightly off-topic, but...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

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