Both are immobile Both are deadly if an adc approaches them
Mordekaiser has no cc, Cho'gath has a ranged knock up Therefore, Cho'gath has 345 base ms, and mordekaiser has 325 base ms
balance in all things edit: if you didn't get it, riot has no reason for giving morde 325 base ms
Big Lincoln16 votesmord also has worse base stats than a couple ADCs and teemo
xd
Ahristocats11 votesthat's really sad, because it's something that should be fixed like right now but will never be fixed
Big Lincoln2 votesi remember @ both of us level 7, enemy Draven had more than 100 base HP than me and a little bit more armor
don't even get me started on graves
PermabannedGaren9 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3G4ELyza,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-16T00:19:15.098+0000)
i remember @ both of us level 7, enemy Draven had more than 100 base HP than me and a little bit more armor
don't even get me started on graves
And yet you are still much tankier than both of those champions in lane.
Mordekaiser's shield is far and away the best tank steroid in the game. A Mordekaiser with health and resistances is almost indestructible.
Backup4now2 votesYou've clearly never played mordekaiser, to suggest that building defense on him makes him indestructible in any way. You can go 6-tank item and you'll die only 2-3 seconds slower, I promise you that.
PermabannedGaren1 votesYou've clearly never played mordekaiser, to suggest that building defense on him makes him indestructible in any way. You can go 6-tank item and you'll die only 2-3 seconds slower, I promise you that.
His shield scales heavily with health and resistances. The health directly increases the size of the shield, and the resistances make it harder to break down. He also has a mechanic in his low cooldown E that lets him continuously refresh it, and his W and ult give him the ability to sustain back damage he does manage to take.
Mordekaiser statistically ranks among the top laners with the least amount of average damage taken consistently. Why do you think that is? It's because of his shield. While obviously not completely indestructible he is still probably the tankiest champion in the game when built defensively. More than a full tank Dr. Mundo.
This is the basic build, though Rylai's is so unappealing now I wonder if Triforce is better.
Backup4now1 votesI have tested it extensively. Once you go beyond mid-silver, where people actually build any resistance at all, tanky builds on mordekaiser drastically fall off. Theoretically (And I spent a LOT of time doing math with several different high-defense builds, including some with rylais or void staff but primarily tank), you could get 2.75 cd on E and land it on several people to max your shield, which with 4k health would be 1000 shield stacked with a potential 200 resistance every 2.75 seconds, for over 1k effective health per second; THEORETICALLY, this is better than mundo. Going that far in a build requires even more dedication to being tank than the build you propose, which will get annihilated in most teamfights.
IN PRACTICE, you will die before you get to use E a single time. You will get q-auto'd by nautilus, and you will die before the CC is over. If you manage to get an E off, you will probably only hit 1 or 2 people, and you will never get in melee range of anyone that you want to focus. Even with the build you suggest, the damage you deal will be so incredibly insignificant that you will not ever, EVER kill anyone at all, and you will generate next to no shield with your q, w, or r. You could drop a full rotation on an ADC and they will stand still and take it, and you will die to their right click. Even if you are never CCd, you will still not manage to accomplish anything except take more damage. This is only untrue if you are already really, really far ahead, at which point the build doesn't matter.
Mordekaiser's shield is for short trades and shrugging off small amounts of damage. This isn't season 2 where you will literally always have a full shield from all the AoE damage, and building only a void staff with full tank is a viable hyper-tank build.
Mordepool7 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3G4ELyza,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-16T00:13:18.264+0000)
mord also has worse base stats than a couple ADCs and teemo
xd
Overall worst base stats in the game
nergalsfang1 votesat what level?
PermabannedGaren9 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3G4ELyza,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-16T00:11:34.438+0000)
Both are immobile Both are deadly if an adc approaches them
Mordekaiser has no cc, Cho'gath has a ranged knock up Therefore, Cho'gath has 345 base ms, and mordekaiser has 325 base ms
balance in all things edit: if you didn't get it, riot has no reason for giving morde 325 base ms
Yet Cho'gath is worse than Mordekaiser right now.
Also, you guys really need to accept that the reason Mordekaiser seems to be treated like shit by Riot is because, well, he is. Riot hates him because he's a failed design, just like Azir or Kalista. He will remain in his shitty state until a full rework, or until Riot decides to give him some small changes like Azir or Kalista are getting, to hold them over for a rework.
Ahristocats4 votesLOL WHAT???
Cho'gath is playable in high elo, can work the with the good build/runes
morde is straight up unplayable in laning phase, and can't do shit with no ms no mobility and cc in teamfight, he requieres your team to be full of cc which doesn't always happen in solo queue
please play cho'gath before saying this thanks mate
PermabannedGaren5 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3G4ELyza,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-01-16T09:07:04.263+0000)
LOL WHAT???
Cho'gath is playable in high elo, can work the with the good build/runes
morde is straight up unplayable in laning phase, and can't do shit with no ms no mobility and cc in teamfight, he requieres your team to be full of cc which doesn't always happen in solo queue
like please, oh my fucking god cho is worse than morde XD please play cho'gath before saying this thanks mate
http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/
Hm, 44.76% win rate in diamond, compared to Mordekaiser's 54.28%.
41.67% win rate in masters, compared to Morde's 46.15% (I never claimed Morde was actually good btw).
36.36% win rate in challenger, compared to Mordekaiser's 50%.
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Mordekaiser/
http://lolalytics.com/champion/Chogath/
Hmmm...
So who do you think plays Cho in high elo by the way? Because even the highest ranked Cho player in the world says he is garbage. At least, that's what I've heard. The data seems to support that.
Oh, and I did play Cho. Used to main him in season five. It's a shame he is hot garbage now.
Also, Mordekaiser unplayable in laning phase? He stat-checks most melees in lane with no effort. He just happens to be extremely susceptible to jungle ganks. You might want to play Mordekaiser.
Profirix1 votesAre you referring to Sawyerr?
PermabannedGaren1 votes[{quoted}](name=I Blame Adam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3G4ELyza,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-16T09:18:10.559+0000)
Are you referring to Sawyerr?
I don't know his name, it's just what I vaguely recall reading recently.
Profirix1 votesIt's a shame really, because his play rate is so low, I'm not even sure Riot is looking at any potential fixes for him. First champion I ever played, and first champion I really enjoy playing.
Orangesilk1 votesThere's the 3rd best Cho in the world, who invented what is currently Chos only viable build: Build as much MPen as possible, use as many secondary sources of magic damage as possible (Hextech, Thunderlords Decree, Ludens, Lyandries).
This means, try to do as much damage as possible without actually using Chos kit because it's hot garbage.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesAll it took was screwing over his W to make him garbage. sigh
The Deckowner4 voteschogath is actually not deadly at all when he gets close, both his q and w are ranged aoe.
Champion Skin1 votesWell there is his ult... and his E...
Though yes if the target has enough HP to survive Cho'gath R/burst then getting in melee range isn't all that scary.... more like Cho'gath should be scared of having the enemy getting close up in his face as the only way he has of getting them off himself is his Q which is unreliable... and if he misses it... then he is quite vulnerable to getting beaten to death by high damage champions like ADC's or Juggernauts or high damage fighters like Yi or Fiora (since his abilities has such long cooldowns he has quite a large window were he is quite helpless/useless)
Profirix1 votesHis E is a very outdated skill and needs to be replaced or substituted. It shouldn't take up an entire skill. It makes no sense on a primarily ranged caster who only needs to get in range to finish someone off with his ultimate. You essentially play with 3 skills all game, except when farming. His kit is obscenely outdated and I am amazed he has gone this long without a mini-rework.
Kingnewgameplus1 votesI feel like his e should become his passive and they give him a different E since his passive is pretty cancer.
Profirix1 votesWhile I agree for the most part, he needs that sustain because of how easily he is abused in lane. All of his skills cost over 70 mana and his mana pool is really bad. He cant use his skills to effectively farm at range because its too costly, but when he gets close, he just gets bullied by almost every top laner.
Kingnewgameplus1 votesWell that's why I'm hoping they'll replace the E with something good to justify those mana costs. Mana cost can be a legit weakness of a champion.
The Deckowner1 votesCho's E does negligible damage, and his ult does a flat amount of true damage which isn't going to one shot you even when you are squishy. His W is actually harder to land in melee range as well as his q.
Champion Skin1 votesCho's E damage isn't actually that bad?... it just seems that way since it is usually the skill maxed last so obviously it will deal last damage If at the equal level then it is around this Q = 4 X E and W = 3 X E... so it does actually deal decent damage (it is even AoE) however with Cho'gath slow attack speed and poor ability to stick to a target he is unlikely to be able to get off many auto attacks... so yeah it is pretty bad most of the time (though not because the numbers are all that low)
The Deckowner1 votesChoGath E at max rank has the same base damage as his Q at rank 1 with less than 1/3 of the ap scaling. It is very shitty damage.
Orangesilk2 votesCho'Gath has always had consistency issues, so he usually levels up his skills in order of consistency: W-Q-E, you want the damage that you're leveling to be the one that you're most likely to land.
I mean, that was supposed to be the idea before the arbitrary W nerf Riot did. Now it's just a mess where none of his skills are consistent and some players (Meaning, the highest ranked Cho streamers in the world) actually level Q first because it's actually easier to land than the W.
Mostro Gallo1 votesI personally always maxed Q first because I like living life on the edge.
What exactly happened to W that made it hard to land?
Orangesilk1 votesThe same thing they did to Annies W, it no longer acquires targets when its cast, but now it damages people who have been in there through the animation.
Now, for Annie this was the least consistent ability anyways in a kit filled with point-n-clicks and she casts it on a stunned target so it didn't change a lot for her.
For Cho it used to be his most consistent ability, and almost a prerequisite to land his Q, so now he's in a BAD place.
This nerf was arbitrary, because Riot wanted to be consistent with the Annie changes. And compensation is nowhere to be seen.
Orangesilk4 votesWell hey, if Morde gets in melee range most of his damage is guaranteed point and clicks anyways.
After Cho'Gaths nerfs his W and Q are so inconsistent that even at melee range a highly mobile champion can dodge and reduce your damage to 0. Cho'Gath is in a terrible, terrible state right now, and if he didn't have his base MS, he'd be EVEN worse.
Cho'Gath isn't gated by lack of CC and range like Morde is, hell, it's a completely different kit. Cho'Gath is gated by outplayability, anyone with 4 braincells can dodge his Q. It used to be that his W was a consistent source of damage even if his Q missed, so he had at least that going for him, but after the nerf all he's got is 2 ranged abilities with CC and range that are actually so inconsistent that they are shit.
Trust me Morde players, you don't want Riot to decide Morde would be more healthy if he had more range but was inconsistent as shit.
Profirix2 votesAgreed. If you play anyone over silver rank, Cho'Gath's effectiveness completely disappears. His threat is not consistent.
R0XTAR2 votesover 150 mord bugs. champion update is more like it for what he needs.
Ahristocats2 votesOverall an update is what he needs
what he needs right now for his mains to actually be able to do something is real base stats
Asayake 5150glow2 votesMorde was much, much, much better against other fighters/tanks/bruisers pre-gutting.
Plus, anything is deadly if an ADC approaches it. That's why they kite backwards.
Ruin Lance2 votesexcept cho'gath is just god awful and mordekaiser is still decent in the hands of an experienced morde player
Ahristocats1 votesand cho is decent in the hands of an experienced morde
that's comming from a cho'gath player
Sire Hippington2 votesAnd yet morde actually performs better than cho these days... Cho may have cc and more base ms, but his kit is far less reliable(the somewhat recent W change 100% fucked him). If morde gets in 600 range, he can already apply E and R, which both can't really miss, and if an allie reaches his opponents, he can even use W reliably. This makes morde atleast a good counter vs lowish ranged opponents. Cho gets countered pretty hard by as much as tier two boots.
That beeing said, cho struggleing even more than morde is no reason to not give morde more base ms. Just leave balance between cho and morde out of this, as cho is actually in a worse spot right now.
Raid Boss Morde1 votesCho'Gath is still a relic of Riot's old designs. If he were made today or got a rework, he would most definitely have lowered movement speed. Cho'Gath not only has 345 Movement speed, he also has a strong slow within in his Q. Not saying he's broken or anything, he's far from it, but it does seem a little silly that Morde can't have higher movement speed when both delete you in melee range.
Darius is another decent example. Kills you if you're within 450 range because of an AoE pull, 2 slows, and still has 340 movement speed.
Big Lincoln11 voteswhy shouldn't melee have high movement speed
Anidan5 votesmelee alone isn't adequate reason for having a high movement speed. You have to take the whole kit into consideration. That said, he also shouldn't have the lowest tier of movement either. It tends to be that if you have high amounts of CC, you're slower to compensate and if you're reliant on being up close and personal then you have higher base speed to stay up in your enemy's face longer. Realistically, Cho's speed may or may not be fine, but Mordekaiser's speed is definitely too low for no real reason. He doesn't have enough CC or other options in a fight to justify being that slow. Melee doesn't have to be faster just because they're melee, but Morde should be faster than than he is.
Big Lincoln2 votesim just saying
has obnoxious kiting and can be hard to get away from - 340 ms
best stun in the entire game - 340 ms
not really much of a stretch that cho should have 345, mord should have 340 at the very least
TheDelighted3 votesVel koz has no way of escape, and is squishy and has an unreliable cc. Even at 340 ms he still feels a bit slow. Veigar just like cho is an old design with a few extra modern touches. They are immobile mages, in general immobile mages have high ms to compensate for the loss in mobility. You kind of compare apples with oranges here.
Sire Hippington3 votesMorde has no escape and no cc at all, and he needs to get close so right into dangerzone unlike vel.
Could you guys please stop acting like high range wasn't a fucking big deal in this game, and the only real answer for a range disadvantage is superior mobillity or somewhat reliable cc that allows you to close the gap.
Mostro Gallo1 votesYou're implying that 340 movement speed is a lot
Raid Boss Morde1 votesYeah, it is for a Juggernaut who has CC.
Mostro Gallo2 votesYou seem to have fabricated your own criteria for what a Juggernaut should and should not have in its arsenal. No where has Riot stated that Juggernauts should have very low base ms; however, they do have little to no reliable/dynamic forms of mobility. Do keep in mind, though, that high base movement does not necessarily translate to having efficient mobility--it goes so far beyond that. Reputable mobility falls into the realm of reliable gapclosers and on-demand dashes/blinks.
And aside from that, giving each Juggernaut exceptionally poor movement speed (by the way, it's a little disturbing that you think 340 ms is high ms) would be ridiculous from a thematic perspective. Could you imagine elite soldier's or warriors, like Darius or Garen--essentially athletes who are at the peak of their physical capabilities--struggling more than they already do to keep up with the rest of their adversaries and allies? Plus, with the exception of Modekaiser, Skarner and (soon) Warwick, no non-tank melee champion has less than 340 movement speed (someone feel free to fact check me on this, I could be wrong). And even then, both Warwick and Skarner have immense movement speed steroids in their kit, hence their low base ms stats.
Raid Boss Morde3 votesTrundle and Udyr, who are both Juggernauts, are faster than most melee champions in the game. I'd say it's a decent way of closing gaps, but it's still not a dash.
I don't think Riot cares about thematics when it comes to balancing kits, as Morde, who we're talking about, has 20 - 84 base armor, and Soraka has about 23 - 88. One is a giant, undead, overlord in armor, the other is some goat thing in a dress.
You are right about the "no less than 340" movement speed on melees though, which is a really strange way of balancing.
a special one1 votescho has really big cast times. and doesnt do as much dmg as morde
Papa Andrei2 votesAp tank cho would like to eat you now
Sire Hippington3 votesAp tank cho would like to eat you now..
...but sadly he doesn't get in range despite 345 base ms.