Why is it acceptable to leave a CHAMP stuck on 42% win rate while Ahri on 55% for couple of Seasons?

Wukong Airlines··71 votes·4,079 views

You see, Azir is almost forgotten, only his mains are playing him, yet they barely win 42% of their games. Meanwhile this full load of BS champ Ahri with unnecessary Q M.S steroid and 3 damage dealing dashes which you can use up to 3 seconds between each is on 54.6% win rate compared to her pick rate 18%.

There must be a VERY good reason why you've decided to kill one while keeping the other broken for many patches. I need an answer.

125 Comments

Revali74 votes

Azirs kit does to much

that's literally it.

Asayake 5150glow6 votes

{quoted}

Azirs kit does to much

that's literally it.

So does Orianna's, just from a little less range. They're really similar, and Ori only lacks a few things Azir has, and Ori doesn't have to put herself in danger in order to burst with R.

They both have medium-long range (Ori's is a little less) DPS, and while Azir's does a bit more in terms of DPS, Ori wins in burst/dps.

They both have 100-0 potential, except Azir needs to E in and R, which can be more powerful, but since it risks Azir, Ori's long range R is usually better. It can also be combo'd with a Zac or Malphite.

Orianna has worse escapes, but makes up for it by being tankier with her shield and passive resists. Azir can get a shield too, but then he has failed his escape (besides R). On the other hand, Ori's shield hurts you for getting in it's way. They can both kite you and turn it around, and while Azir's ult and DPS lets him do that a bit easier, Ori can also definitely do it.

They both have AoE, Ori's ball and Azir's Q+autos.

They both have good teamfighting+wombo's, except Azir's puts him at risk and puts him behind the enemy team - admittedly, with a wall in the way, but a wall is (usually) no substitute for teammates, which Ori's hiding behind.

They both have waveclear, Ori can kill minions very quickly from high range with 2 Q's and a W, while Azir can soldier them. Except Azir kinda leaves himself at risk because unless he keeps a W charge, he has no way to help himself (for the small windows of his short Q CD, anyway). Ori has her E to give her a shield, resists, and put her ball on herself.

Glory9718 votes

Nah in teamfight it's not impossible to focus ori and taker her down. Against a good azir that's impossible. He has a dash that no assassin could ever hope to follow up and his disgusting ultimate to keep himself safe. I am a former Azir main and even though i don't like him being gutted i know that he deserves it.

The Stabby Tabby11 votes

I want to tell you you're wrong, I wish I could.

I just want to play Azir again.

Zero Skill Tank31 votes

Orianna has worse escapes, but makes up for it by being tankier with her shield and passive resists.

That's an UNDERSTATEMENT of the year. How Orianna's shield "makes up for" Azir's ability to dash almost 2k god damn units and to create a wall IMPASSABLE for 90 or more percent of all champions?

Compared with Orianna, Azir is fucking Superman Prime of untouchability.

Asayake 5150glow4 votes

{quoted}

That's an UNDERSTATEMENT of the year. How Orianna's shield "makes up for" Azir's ability to dash almost 2k god damn units and to create a wall IMPASSABLE for 90 or more percent of all champions?

Compared with Orianna, Azir is fucking Superman Prime of untouchability.

Because Orianna will E+R+W+Q and now you're almost dead.

Meanwhile Azir needs to R+Q+dps you down, or W+Q+E away.

Azir wall might be impassable, but he won't kill you as quickly as an R+Q+W from Ori.

Troll for Trump9 votes

So Ori either has enough dmg to burst you with her combo or she doesn't.

Azir can burst or DPS you.

He scales up lategame, and can bully earlygame.

And, he has much better self-peel than Ori.

Blakiepug1 votes

{quoted}

Azirs kit does to much

that's literally it.

Not anymore it doesn't. Even compare 2016 Azir's kit to newer champions like Camille and Jhin and they do more than him. It's just a weird case of releasing a "high-skill cap" champion and when he started to excel in high elo, like he should given he was aimed at a higher skill cap, they nerfed him into oblivion.

Glory9714 votes

Cammille is an ad-bruiser and that's ok. Jhin is an adc. Azir is a poke-champion, DPS-Champion, Zoning-Champion, Engage-Champion, Disengage-Champion... wtf?= I know he is weak at the moment, but it's kit is still to versatile

Knoyle1 votes

Cammille is an ad-bruiser

I think you forgot Diver Assassin

chipndip13 votes

Divers ARE bruisers.

She has extremely potent sticking power and mobility in comparison to other divers, though.

Troll for Trump4 votes

She is a diver, but not an assassin.

Her design makes her feel like she should be one, but she has no Burst. Not unless you do a really horrible build path, and, even then, it's way too delayed for an assassin. She has no escape route either, assuming you're using her E to dive in

crippler3835 votes

Because if at any point Azir is strong he's oppressive when played by good players.

Other people have and will point out this, but the man's kit only has the weakness of being hard. Other than his difficulty he brings to the table-

  1. waveclear
  2. poke
  3. zone control
  4. crowd control/peel/initiation
  5. terrain building
  6. dps
  7. burst
  8. mobility

that's basically everything you want in a team comp, let alone in one champion. Only thing he lacks is he's not a tank, but you have 4 other people to handle that for you.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Other people have and will point out this, but the man's kit only has the weakness of being hard

Same Riven Yasuo LeeSin

crippler3814 votes

Those champs have the weakness of being melee.

Being melee when trying to do damage is kind of hard, also they can't waveclear or siege safely.

They might be strong but nowhere near azir levels of overloaded.

Troll for Trump1 votes

The range is compensated with the mobility.

Against their matchups, they can waveclear relatively safely.

They have different pros/cons all of them are near azir levels of overloaded

Nuparu2 votes

For as much as I hate Lee, being overloaded is not his issue.

And you're grossly over exaggerating about the other two. None of them have the tools Azir has in his kit. When you're against a skilled Yasuo/Riven/Lee, you still have some options to play around it.

Azir? Nope. You were fucked unless you were a really highly skilled Zed or LeBlanc. That was the counterplay.

Troll for Trump2 votes

When you're against a skilled Yasuo/Riven/Lee, you still have some options to play around it.

Sorry, but no.

If you're against a skille Yas/Riven/Lee, you won't have any sort of option to play around them.

Nuparu2 votes

You'll be completely shit out of luck if you choose to be willfully ignorant of what they actually do. :)

Troll for Trump2 votes

It's not really being ignorant.

It's more ignorant to assume that everyone who complains about yas doesn't know jcksht about him.

Yes, even with the "counterplay," which isnt' much, Yas still has the initiative.

How about you actually start discussing something instead of making snide remarks?

Nuparu1 votes

I could, but from experience reading boards and seeing your posts enough, no amount of logic will ever break your idea that Yasuo is the most unbalanced character to ever exist.

Troll for Trump2 votes

And based on your posts.... you're kinda a douchebag.

crippler387 votes

Here's why I disagree.

TL;DR: Yasuo, Riven, and Lee Sin are strong. They are allowed to be strong because they're not at Azir's levels of overloaded. If Azir is strong and that player is good at him then there is not one single reason to not pick Azir. Azir lacks bad matchups that scale well into late game and is a late game monster. Azir engages and disengages multiple targets at once while providing an impassible wall that allies can walk through. Azir can shut down entire sections of the fight with his soldiers, ult, and passive. Azir provides a staging point for any siege, a rallying point for any siege, a DPS source for any fight, an AOE source for any fight, can keep himself safe and at a distance, and as a result Azir can make or break entire teams. No other champion in the game can provide as much as Azir, as safely as Azir, and as reliably as Azir, provided Azir is a strong character.

It's not the matchups that make azir great, it's the fact that if he's strong he's useful ALWAYS and forever.

Unless Azir happened to get stomped he could, as I said, do everything your team needed in a damage dealer.

Yasuo and Riven basically have to all in to get anything done, Riven is mobile for sure but she can only fight from melee range, which puts her at risk.

Yasuo's mobility requires enemies to work, meaning he has to go in or have someone he hasn't hit yet to get out with a piddly little dash. He has a single ranged attack in order to do anything and happens to have a wind wall to help shut down ranged harass so he can try to get in melee safer. Still requires himself to be in melee range.

Lee Sin has mobility sure, but that mobility requires him to have a ward or ally, the mainly reliable of which takes a slot that makes it so he needs to keep wards on his person, or he has to hit an enemy with a skillshot.

Compare to Azir, who can make his own mobility and has self peel that shuts down all but one type of mobility. Who has sustained damage similar to an adc while dealing magical damage which forces the enemy to build MR and AD, thus splitting their resistances (all mages do this, but Azir can pump out numbers like nobody's business from a safe distance away). Azir, who can create immovable objects and a flippin turret to secure an area. Azir, who can clear lanes entirely safely at all stages of the game while getting off pretty much free and safe poke as well.

Don't get me wrong, none of the champions you mentioned are weak, but I think you're mixing overloaded with hyper mobility.

Here's what Yas has.

-DPS/Burst damage from his crits

-Conditional mobility

-Conditional knockup and conditional suspend

-Self protection from about a single source of damage (give or take another depending on how much you hit him until the shield goes away or how strong your hit is)

-The ability to eliminate ranged abilities from the game, which does not bother melee attacks in any way shape or form and thus essentially exists to get Yas into melee so he can do his thing or to say 'no ranged people, you cannot hit me from safety'

-Passive double crit chance.

What Yasuo lacks.

-Any way to really engage or disengage for his team, this is because the tornado requires Yasuo to have targets. Azir has this.

-Any way to deal with melee attackers who are flat out stronger than him at murder, Yas can't run without a minion wave. Azir can do this.

-Poke or siege of any kind, he's melee so he has to go basically balls deep to do anything to anyone who isn't a tank. Very dangerous.

-No resource, limits his build path.

Now, don't get me wrong again, his ult is pretty good at getting him into range so he can do his thing and start shredding folks, but it's still conditional and still throws him into melee range with no way out besides the murder of him or the enemy. Also his crit passive, no matter how much you and everyone else might hate it, forces Yasuo to build critical hit damage. He needs to get online earlier than an ADC because he's melee, but with his kit if the man was allowed to not force a few of his items into crit items he'd be so much more annoying to deal with.

Plus Yasuo's abilities all scale horribly with CDR besides his Windwall, thus further making the player want to build in a certain way in order to try and maximize his kit. This makes it so Windwall is a much higher value of an ability to use and thus super important if it's down.

See Tank Yasuo for details.

Riven:

Pros:

-High mobility through 4 dashes

-Small AOE CC

-High damage

-Big, short lived, shield

-Execute AOE skillshot

-AD steroid.

-No Resource

Cons:

-Gets shutdown hard by anyone who happens to be better at bullying than her. (this happens with all melee champs though since they can't really farm safely outside of the few with long range spammable attacks, like mundo.)

-Only way to deal with poke is her dash shield

-All in only. If she's trying to kill you, she's going to blow everything except maybe her shield dash to do it.

-Only ranged skill is an ultimate

-No resource, meaning no tear items and items that give mana are less efficient on her.

Basically, she has to go on, which puts her at massive risk. She has only utility on one skill which is a melee range stun and no real tools to deal with coordinated efforts to eliminate her. She lives and dies by her ability to dash for that shield, and without that shield she's incredibly squishy since she has to build AD to be a threat.

Lee Sin.

Pros: -Has Peel in his ultimate and his slow

-Can engage with his ultimate if he performs it perfectly

-High damage early on, kinda meh damage later on

-Self sustain (provided he can remain in combat) for both energy and hp

-Small shields

-2 dashes, one of which being point and click to allies and the other being a skillshot

-Energy champion with efficient energy regeneration

Good at getting in, good at getting out provided he kept a ward around. Not super hard to do but again it limits what Lee sin must have in his item and trinket slots. Decent engage provided the stars align and good damage scalings.

Cons:

-Energy based champion, he has a limited pool to work with and in order to replenish that pool he has to limit his casting and auto attack which is risky in a fight. Unless he builds tanky of course but if he's doing that he's not going to oneshot you when you're full build.

-No zone control, Lee's only zone control is the fact he's there, that's not much.

-Engage and Disengage need the stars to align to be useful against more than one or two people. Lee can pick on average 1-2 people, Azir ult could pick your entire team. Granted that's an unfair comparison since Azir is overloaded AF but still.

-Is melee, despite his mobility he still gets most of his damage off from being melee.

-Lacks sustained damage, Lee is entirely CD reliant and lacks powerful steroids for his basic attacks, unlike Riven or Yasuo or Azir for example.

Basically, Lee can get his job done fast and relatively safe but he doesn't have much after that. Lee sin, once he blows his load, is a glorified melee creep until he gets his cooldowns back. Cooldowns aren't long no but there are better options for just straight up deleting a person safely.

All of the people you mentioned are strong, but they lack the utility combined with the constant damage potential that Azir has.

They can be strong without being the end all be all of anything ever. Azir, if he's strong, can do everything and anything with zero weaknesses provided the person playing him is doing a good job. I repeat, Azir's only remote weakness is he isn't beefy.

Sorry for the wall of text. If I said anything wrong then feel free to comment, and I genuinely enjoy discussing ideas so I would love it.

Troll for Trump2 votes

No, they are still overloaded.

Not as overloaded as Azir, but not every champ is Azir.

Not every champ is at the same lvl as those 3 either.

They are overloaded in comparison to other things in the game.

You're only comparing them to Azir, and not everything else in the game; a comparison between two types of overloadedness.

Azir:

-DPS is conditional; you have to stand near his soldiers. Yes, he does get the chance to reposition them, but not always

-Squishiness

--mobility is telegraphed, partially negated by shurima shuffling.

-He is a hypercarry, but his early game bullying isn't the most oppressive, for what he's laning against.

crippler382 votes

Of course I'm comparing them to Azir, that's who I'm talking about isn't it?

I personally don't think Yasuo and Riven are overloaded really because even if their abilities are useful and multi part, they're only really good for damage and getting in to do damage.

I rate utility too highly maybe though.

On to Azir, the fun part.

  1. conditional dps, he can move those soldiers every 4 seconds and spawn one every 3.6 seconds (40% cdr, easy to get on Azir.), plus he can push you into them with his wall while stabbing you if he really wanted to.

  2. Course he's squishy, not gonna argue this, man's got range tho so that mitigates it somewhat.

  3. Mobility is slightly telegraphed but hey, he has a mobility skill that he can two part go one way then swoop another, better than no mobility skill.

  4. He used to be oppressive as all hell in the early game since he can spawn a soldier to farm, spawn another one when he wants to poke you, send those soldiers in and then stab you. That or spawn soldier, poke, stab, poke again for thunderlords.

Again, they probably are overloaded to all hell, I just rate utility more than damage or mobility since CC is awesome you know?

Troll for Trump2 votes

You call them strong, and not overloaded; i'm arguing they're overloaded, because of how much better their kits are in comparison with other champs

Oh, and forgot to mention Azir has no way to sustain himself; this is big, as Lee has innate sustain, Yas can get Warlord's lifesteal, and Riven gets lifesteal. It's more of a problem between AP and AD itemization, but Azir being AP is a part of his kit.

Just for being AD, a champ has a wider array of itemization than AP champs.

NineTailedMystic14 votes

Because Azir absolutely destroyed pro play and solo Q if you could play him. His kit is not healthy for the game.

which you can use up to 3 seconds between each is on 54.6% win rate compared to her pick rate 18%.

Wat. Using her first R give her 10 seconds to use the other two, and there's a static 1s CD between each.

grug12 votes

lol azir, screw that guy.

the king of low winrates Ryze 37 and dropping hgnngngngh

Wukong Airlines36 votes

The thing is.. Ryze will always get his guaranteed seasonal rework, but who knows if Azir will.

Viktor Von Lazer4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shaykh al Jabal,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Fgee66t,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-16T10:29:51.001+0000)

The thing is.. Ryze will always get his guaranteed seasonal rework, but who knows if Azir will.

The thing is your post is wrong. Azir mains get about a 52% winrate for those who actually main him. Just look at lolking,net and you'll see the break down by games played. That statistic 42% takes into account people who try him out and fail. Just go to Azir mains and ask them how long it took for them to get good at the champion... the answer is going to be anywhere from 50 to 200 games. Which is about the time Azir's winrate for games played starts reaching around the 50% mark. The champion isn't garbage, the summoners are. ATM to play azir you need to invest in Azir , and that mean playing and feed from anywhere from 50 to 200 games. You can't really have it both ways. EIther you change the champion to make him easier to play which may be the death of Azir and just some new champion. Or leave him as is and those who want to put the effort to learn -how to shuffle and Dive, how to attack move and kit with his soldiers, how to zone and keep safe effectively. So many basic skills when playing 1 champion, it's like being a mage, an assassin and an adc in 1. And all that work isn't even taking into consideration the actual game! ... CSing perfectly cause you're item dependent and need to hit certain power spikes, warding cause you're vulnerable pre lvl 3 and without your ult up. When to roam, when to follow. It takes a lot of concentration to be good at EVERYTHING which is not what THE Emperor requests of you... but DEMANDS of you. Do you think flying over walls and shuffling enemies back into a turret is going to happen over night for the average player? No, but it's these sort of plays Azir is BALANCED around. You either ruin a champion that people main to make him more accessible to others who might still sux at him because of how much is required to play him, OR you you leave him as is.

Riot is trying to find the middle ground at the moment, they don't want to change Azir so much that he doesn't feel like the same champion, but they do want to make him a bit more accessible.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Ryze does too much too tbh.

Arakadia6 votes

He offers damage, a root, and a team wide TP that is hard to organize. Thats not too much.

Maybe he has too many mechanics in his kit, but he can't do very much besides tp his team, root an enemy, and do damage.

Troll for Trump2 votes

It doesn't seem like a lot, but he pulls it off reliably.

He's oppressive, especially in laning phase at top lane

Arakadia2 votes

Absolutely. He should be forced to mid lane imo.

However he doesn't offer his team much. Nor do too much.

Seenan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shaykh al Jabal,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3Fgee66t,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-04-16T10:29:51.001+0000)

The thing is.. Ryze will always get his guaranteed seasonal rework, but who knows if Azir will.

Similarly to Cassiopeia, machine gun DPS mages are hard to get right/balance, and in Ryze' case, to master.

greekvandaL4 votes

well at least Azir even tho disgusting took skill. Ryze hovers his mouse over your model and you are dead while he runs away with 600+ movespeed.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

Azir presses W and bullies you out of lane. Denying ryze needs skill is just absurd or you have never played ryze against competent opponents.

Glory974 votes

Yeah lane bullying is pretty easy with azir. But what if i told you there is more you need to do with azirs kit to be good?

THE RlVER KlNG7 votes

There has and always will be champions that Riot flat out refuses to nerf no matter how disgusting they are. And even if they do it's some piddly tap to an effect or ability that no one was even complaining about.

I love the boards mentality where some champions are toxic and unfun and deserve to be gutted, but the moment you bring up someone like Ahri or Lulu or Janna or Jhin when he was strong etc. you get a legion of mains downvoting you, calling you biased, and saying 'it's just the meta' or 'they're just fun to play' whilst ignoring bloated win/play/ban rates across elos. That mentality is gross and insulting and should stop.

macromite2 votes

to be fair two of those are supports. and no one gives a dip about supports.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Then you don't realize that supports are the most powerful class in the game

And some are allowed to be broken just because they bitch about everything and a lot of Rioters on the balance team main support

macromite4 votes

You see, Supports are A: not a class, it is a position, and B: Enchanter, (the support class containing janna and lulu) is not the most powerful class in the game. if anything overall it is a very weak class. having a few outliers with high potential is really not a problem when the rest of them are generally hot garbage.

THE RlVER KlNG7 votes

Enchanters are a weak class? That's why they have some of the highest win rates in the game with high pick rates as well? That's why they have to be nerfed out of solo lanes and even then are oppressive when they go bot, forcing out melee picks? The class Ivern belongs too, and how he shows that an enchanter with a jungle budget is strong as hell, pushing a 60% win rate at times?

You make me laugh.

macromite1 votes

they are less strong than easy.

IF they were really strong they wouldn't be in the duo lane.

THE RlVER KlNG3 votes

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard

nice table7 votes

azir mains aren't winning only 42% of their games, only noobies are losing over 50% of their games on azir and anyone with experience on him is winning over half their games.

source: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/azir/platinum

RainXBlade6 votes

Azir suffers with Yasuo as having a heavily overloaded kit where all variables are hard to balance and that if they touch one thing, it could potentially make them weaker or turn them into a monster of a champion. Azir however, suffers more from this because of the nature of his kit has. Here are the list of things Azir has:

  • Waveclear
  • DPS of an ADC and Burst dmg of a mage (Soldiers' DPS and easy TLD procs)
  • Zoning (Soldiers and ult)
  • Sieging power
  • Tank Shredding power (Rylai's + Liandry's)
  • Relatively good mobility
  • Utility (Tower passive)
  • Good range

The only thing Azir lacks here is durability, but that's easy to fix when other champions can build tank/bruiser items or Azir himself buys a couple of defensive items. Even a champion like Yasuo can't compete with Azir's kit.

If Riot were to buff anything from Azir's kit, it would make him impossible to fight against both in the LCS and Solo Q. Remember the time when Azir was in the meta? When I bought and used him a bunch of times, god I was disgusted at myself. This guy was more oppressive than any of the post-MYMU mages could ever be.

I used to main Azir before his nerfs and yeah, don't ask me how disgustingly powerful he was.

SirΤeemο6 votes

azir is the hardest champion of the game . mastering him you gonna be the winner on your games... comparing azir with ahri.. is like comparing a nissan micra with a ferrari .

PePsiLemoNN3 votes

Azir is a lane bully and also a lategame carry. I'd still rather face him than that bs lol

charge attack15 votes

{quoted}

Azir is a lane bully and also a lategame carry. I'd still rather face him than that bs lol

You'd really rather face Azir?

Do you enjoy eating 1K burst damage from 800 units away and getting slowed and if you don't move the fk out of his UNTARGETABLE soldiers range you will die. Oh you're gonna gank him? Good fking luck. He's about as slippery as Ahri with MORE burst, MORE dps, MORE range. Well, at least when he was good. That's why they had to gut him.

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