I can't tell if this is for LCS, or for casuals

PhantomGG··60 votes·16,978 views

With how riot balances things this year, it has made both watching the lcs a snore fest, and playing casual absolute missery, and even playing ranked actual hell.

People witch hunt pro lcs and say "THE GAME IS BALANCED AROUND THE LCS" but my counter argument has always been "if this is true, than where are the pros who asked for these changes? Why are LCS view counts hurting instead of growing?"

I look at the casual scene and notice people quitting, and posting day by day anger threads, I notice the competitive players posting how things are horribly unbalanced and match maker being broken.

What I have come to a conclusion to that riot is balancing the game around "how they want it" and the way they "want it" Hurts both pro lcs play, competitive play, and casual play

For the LCS mistakes are far to punishing and can result in a insta gg. Not to mention with the safety and special abilities new runes offer, cool solo kills became impossible to accomplish unless player X was simply ten times better than player Z. We also see this growing in high elo.

For competitive play, suffers a lot of the same complaints LCS has, where small mistakes are to heavily punished but at the same time, to push for a more "team game theme" great players no longer feel like they impact the game. Unless you have amazing mechanics that are far above everyone else by miles, you can no longer solo carry a game. I use to say "if you want plat and you're in gold, you have to play on a near diamond level if you want any hope to climb" Than the other day while i'm playing with my diamond friends one says "I feel if you want any hope to climb in diamond you honestly have to play on a near master tier level" Basically what is being said, you have to execute each game to near perfection if you want to win your game simply because as all the streamers have been saying.

"A single player can't win you the game, but a single player can lose you the game" The removal of individual micro mechanics mattering in each game is frustrating to talented players, and if riot really wants to enfroce macro, than it becomes all the more frustrating, when you are a player that spends many hours studying strategy just to have it ruiend for a single player refuses to do the role he is required. Example you just need your adc to group so you can siege the tower, but instead the split push to get cs and get assasinated. Even though you were practically begging them to group.

Than for the casual scene, the largest complaint the casual scene has, was the removal of creative and diverse play styles. Many claim this is what made them love the game how you can play silly shit like AP shyvana or full AD katarina, and still be a legitmate champion. Many of the casual players just miss the silly and fun stuff you can do on league, yet riot has also removed those things.

My point i'm trying to make here is this.

Riot doesn't make changes that make any of the three sides happy.

Pro players hate how a single mistake loses you the game. Competitive players hate how individual skill feels like it no longer matters. Casual players hate how creativity feels removed from the game.

Riot has acrossed the board failed to make any of these sides happy, for they are enforcing what THEY want, and not what the player base wants.

And honestly if they continue going down this road, the moment a new and more appealing moba is created, they might actually take a serious hit. So all I have to say to Riot is this

Step up and stop the ego trip Focus on the customer needs not your own Or risk being killed off when a new and better moba comes out.

48 Comments

Kitten of Evil29 votes

I feel like they're trying to add risk and force interaction, to make LCS more interesting. But this doesn't work because LCS players are naturally risk-averse (since they get their paychecks off winning the game).

Pro players respond to damage creep by playing even MORE passively. But casuals can't count on teammates that play safe.

So what happens is the game becomes super boring to watch while lower elo games are destroyed by damage creep and reflex-testing.

LegitBusinessman12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3EnYy1Bm,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-05-25T04:07:29.635+0000)

I feel like they're trying to add risk and force interaction, to make LCS more interesting. But this doesn't work because LCS players are naturally risk-averse (since they get their paychecks off winning the game).

Pro players respond to damage creep by playing even MORE passively. But casuals can't count on teammates that play safe.

So what happens is the game becomes super boring to watch while lower elo games are destroyed by damage creep and reflex-testing.

Damn that's so succinct and I agree with every word. Bless.

Anomandarist1 votes

What if they made it so that a tower can only be damaged if its ally players are out of its range and increasing the damage of towers to champs, and gold for player kills are halved? More incentive to force tower dives that are riskier to take out opponents increasing interactivity, while reducing the negative consequences of dying to make riskier plays more enticing.

YoNightmare715 votes

I actually watch lcs and lol esports stuff to get to sleep, it's quite efficient.

P.S. This is not sarcasm.

LegitBusinessman10 votes

{quoted}

I actually watch lcs and lol esports stuff to get to sleep, it's quite efficient.

P.S. This is not sarcasm.

No BS I do the same thing. Pop a game on from LolEventVODs and I just fall asleep to the droning of the casters.

Automated Riven8 votes

This is why riot thinks the changes are working.

More views is good right?

Mannny2 votes

Pop a game on from LolEventVODs and I just fall asleep to the droning of the casters

I thought I was the only one who did this..

Velgam2 votes

Amazingly my brother does this as well when he can't sleep, tells me to come in and turn off his phone in about 2hrs.

dunder kill13 votes

When in doubt, take Bone Plating + Second Wind secondary. Guaranteed to turn your lane into a snoozefest as the only chance you have of dying is fucking up royally

Burn for me1 votes

This has nothing to do with YOU dying.

It has to do with your team being apes and going 2-13 by the 10 minute mark.

Salson9 votes

It's not balanced around anyone in particular.

The reason League is so 'hard' to balance is because they try to cater to everyone. Honesty, whenever I tried to do that in real life, I failed miserably.

Dota is considered 'more balanced' than league, yet has champs with 60%+ winrates for 90% of the playerbase.

Leetri2 votes

I'd love to see how the boards would react if Riot balanced like Valve does in Dota 2, I can already taste the salt from all the "why the f* does Garen have a 70% win rate in soloq?" posts.

Anatera8 votes

You forgot that they have some of the most extraordinary willful ignorance among gaming devs. And if they don't, then it's their fault for not communicating properly with the players.

LegitBusinessman8 votes

I watched every single LCS game this split and every single MSI all on vod. There were literally two games that made me butt clench. The one FNC v RNG game and the other was uh... 100T v TL I think? The only, ONLY one time in spring split during NA LCS i was like 'yo that was sick' was Dardochs sejuani ult flash predict and I'm not sure what game that even was.

I've been saying this for THREE EFFING YEARS. When you increase upfront damage, time to kill is shorter, and you have less opportunities for skill expression.

Normals are the worst quality, one sided stomp fests in 4 seasons. I haven't touched ranked this season and probably wont. LCS is boring to watch.

But why bother? This is the current dev team that shipped Zoe and didn't expect AP Galio buffs to be total bullshit. Have you seen Spear on PBE? Anyone who plays this game knows that item is going to be disgusting. The problem solving at the current state of the game is 'Throw damage at it to fix it'.

Stinrygar4 votes

{quoted}

I watched every single LCS game this split and every single MSI all on vod. There were literally two games that made me butt clench. The one FNC v RNG game and the other was uh... 100T v TL I think? The only, ONLY one time in spring split during NA LCS i was like 'yo that was sick' was Dardochs sejuani ult flash predict and I'm not sure what game that even was.

I've been saying this for THREE EFFING YEARS. When you increase upfront damage, time to kill is shorter, and you have less opportunities for skill expression.

Normals are the worst quality, one sided stomp fests in 4 seasons. I haven't touched ranked this season and probably wont. LCS is boring to watch.

But why bother? This is the current dev team that shipped Zoe and didn't expect AP Galio buffs to be total bullshit. Have you seen Spear on PBE? Anyone who plays this game knows that item is going to be disgusting. The problem solving at the current state of the game is 'Throw damage at it to fix it'.

this is true, good points

drawn out fights offer more skill expression, although they also favor ADCs more

Cavesloth7 votes

I think you are misinterpreting the data. Its not that they aren't making the changes for the LCS, its that they are so incredibly incompetent (or perhaps poorly lead, given most of these unpopular changes have happened since Tencent took over and could be forcing competent designers to make poor decisions based on their own inabilities and bias) that they TRY to make changes to make the LCS more watchable, but their basic understanding of human psychology is so poor that many of the changes they make have the opposite effect, let alone the argument could be made that making a MOBA a spectator sport is a fools errand.

KZ Engel5 votes

they're not changing the game for the lcs players, they're changing it for the lcs audience

lcs audience probably comprises mostly of whales, so they want to appease those

PhantomGG5 votes

To answer each question and point

First: Only if Riot refuses to fix their problems, and only if a legitimately good game that is SPECIFICALLY a moba gets made.

Only a shooter can kill a shooter: Halo vs Cod=Cod won Only a battle royale can kill a battle royale= Pub g vs Fortnite = Fortnite won Dota vs League = Sorta ended in a tie towards leagues favor due to them having very different mechanics and people appreciating the depth of Dota, while others prefer leagues more simplistic approach in map design.

But point is, for a game to die, two factors must happen.

1-The developers of the game must be making a long list of mistakes that upset the fans. 2-A new and better game that is within the same genre, gets created so it can steal and convert fans in mass waves.

If you look at the most recent example. Pub G vs Fortnite this is exactly what happened. Pub G was making a LONGGGGGGGG list of mistakes, that were never being adressed and fixed. The biggest example, being the PC to console transfer, they were introducing greedy money plans and just doing a lot of things that just generally were pissing off a large group of their fans.

Fort nite than comes along, avoids the large list of mistakes Their competitor was doing, and than do a near flawless across the board versions of mobile, ps4 and so on. Everything that Pub G was getting wrong, Fortnite was getting right. While Fortnite is not without it's flaws, it was very clear they were making a concious effort to avoid the mistakes of pub G. And because of that, Pub G is a dying game that might not be able to sustain itself in the long run. Fort Nite didn't kill pub G, it fucking murdered it.

Riot really needs to look at the story of pub g vs fort nite and realize, it can still very easily happen to them

as for the games you mentioned

HOTS: was a half assed game pumped out by blizzard in hopes of making a quick buck off MOBA lovers. No one, not even blizzard had the realistic expectations that it would hit dota or league numbers

Battlerite?: Same story as HOTS, a half assed game with no future.

Smite?: Very healthy community still going strong, problem it had, is it has a clear niche audience focus group and won't appeal to anyone outside of it basically the focus group is people who want a MOBA experience like league or dota but through a third person view with 3D graphics. Now that paragon is gone, they don't even have a real competitor anymore.

DOTA2? Strong community, great in depth, honestly what keeps people from playing DOTA is the intense learning curve, the stubborn rivalry of people refusing to even give the oppissite game a chance and a few other factors. The real reason these games haven't killed one another is largely thanks to the fact that both games have very loyal audiences and that both games are pretty different with their own unique traits they bring to the table. League is Enjoyment in simplicity , Dota is complexity and depth. Fact is DOTA does take more skill to play, and this is coming from a avid league lover who doesn't even have DOTA downloaded anymore.

That being said. What does a game have to be, to kill league?

1- Simple, not simpler but simply new player friendly, in the same way fort nite is to it's new players

2- Address the core flaws that League has with itemization and classifications

3- Learn to focus on quality not quanity with champions being released

4- a fresh coat of paint (better graphics but not over the top)

5- Focus on seperating the good players from the bad players, basically allow people who are good at the game or even above average, the ability to carry their shitter teamates.

6- A ranked mode that actually WORKS

7- Have the same view point and graphics style as league and dota (you're perspectives in how you see the screen)

If a new moba was to accomplish those components, with the state league currently is, League I have without a doubt, would take a serious hit in the numbers. A very serious hit. But the moba would have to be made at a stratagic date, when the game is on a low point, just like fort nite was.

And Yes Fortnite did release their game at the exact point PUB G was at a low point on purpose, this wasn't an accident, this was to hit them where it hurts while they were on their knees.

This is effectively how you kill your competitors.

That would be 20 bucks for the business lesson I Just gave you.

Oh, and the moment you can buy them out and shut down the game.

HUE HUE HUE EA

KlydeFrog1 votes

First off none of the mobas are the same. I would call smite and league more related then dota. And 2 hots isnt half assed sorry for having a more objective based team based game then league.

MuffledGarbage4 votes

When the company that made HOTS(blizzard) literally has 2 people balancing the game in it's entirety, the game is half-assed

The game was thrown together by blizzard in a matter of MONTHS

League and Dota 2 at least were released around the Same-ish time with the Same-ish fundamental premise which made them practically the same game on release(to new consumers)

Blizzard did ONE WEEK of total tiny-commercial ads(the kind on clickbait news articles) for HOTS

League and Dota 2 got MONTHS of tiny-commercial ads on the clickbait news articles, on youtube with free popularity and hype coming from Youtubers and with the facebook page

HonestJohnTheCon4 votes

While I disagree with some of your points, most notably citing angry forum posts as proof that the game is declining, I agree with the general point of the post that Riot needs to step it up. They need a wake-up call.

+1

PhantomGG8 votes

{quoted}

While I disagree with some of your points, most notably citing angry forum posts as proof that the game is declining, I agree with the general point of the post that Riot needs to step it up. They need a wake-up call.

+1

the main point i'm trying to point out, is that literally all three community of players are just pissed off right now.

Leto GT3 votes

They're actively trying to reduce toxicity in the game though shortening the games and shifting the game to be less reliant on teammates. Look at all the recent changes. Pretty much trying to force ppl in 1vs1 stomps and hard carry situations with no chance of come back. All the items and champion designs are based on that. I don't know if you've have checked the new upcoming items, they're all about increasing carry potential.

I believe the fact that laners are helping their junglers for the scuttles was not expected. I'm expecting further tweaks on his spawn timer.

So I believe it has nothing to do with lcs or casual. Just trying to tackle those things riot think are the source of the toxicity.

Oakleaf Ranger1 votes

[{quoted}](name=wG Got2Cool,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3EnYy1Bm,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-05-24T23:29:19.562+0000)

They're actively trying to reduce toxicity in the game though shortening the games and shifting the game to be less reliant on teammates. Look at all the recent changes. Pretty much trying to force ppl in 1vs1 stomps and hard carry situations with no chance of come back. All the items and champion designs are based on that. I don't know if you've have checked the new upcoming items, they're all about increasing carry potential.

I believe the fact that laners are helping their junglers for the scuttles was not expected. I'm expecting further tweaks on his spawn timer.

So I believe it has nothing to do with lcs or casual. Just trying to tackle those things riot think are the source of the toxicity.

Oh riot said they intentionally pushed the game more team oriented and admitted they pushed team oriented play too much. Changes which were hated by the majority because it led to less individual impact.

I really blame riot for creating this mess by stopping the class updates after the tank and support updates. They got new toys and changes to better fit their playstyle while the carry classes are still using outdated toys and lacked methods that cant compete with them.

If you look at who benefits the most from next two patches (give me that new spear item already), you would think this the mid season unofficial carry class update that was needed.

Seriously give me that spear item already.

kurufal3 votes

The reason LOL is such a popular eSport is because the players themselves can enjoy the game and have a chance to play at a very high level. It's not something you can do in traditional sports and the closer they get to state the more people they will lose interest. The game is clearly dying because they are catering to the LCS.

4262873 votes

LCS view counts fall because having a predictable meta becomes boring....and being boring in the entertainment industry isnt a good idea.

AirKingNeo2 votes

neither

Moogu2 votes

yeah this game is finally being killed off by riot. no really surprising. time to move on

Demented Gag2 votes

I agree with most of the things you said, but was there really a time when you could play AD Katarina or AP Shyvana and not be considered a troll? And why can't you play them now in the same manner as before? Did Riot removed some of their AD/AP scaling, or is it because of the new runes? A genuine question.

PhantomGG4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demented Gag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3EnYy1Bm,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2018-05-25T09:54:23.422+0000)

I agree with most of the things you said, but was there really a time when you could play AD Katarina or AP Shyvana and not be considered a troll? And why can't you play them now in the same manner as before? Did Riot removed some of their AD/AP scaling, or is it because of the new runes? A genuine question.

-Most champions had their ap ratios removed in favor of their stronger element. For example Evelyn once upona time was actually an AD assassin not an AP. She always swapped back and forth depending on meta demands. But in the rework her ad was completely removed.

-Duo hybrid builds had items taken from them. Example the orignal tri force, was one more i think, can't remember

-Players just legit got better and stopped falling for gimics. People give silver a lot of shit but in all honesty, if you're not boosted, the honest silver player is equivalent to what gold was two years ago. Same thing can be said for every elo.

All though it looks like riot has considered looking at options to bring back "duo styles" One example is the fact they never do anything to nerf AD kennen, the other is the fact they literally just buffed AP shyvana out of nowhere.

Their is probably someone with a more detailed answer, but i hope this one helps for now.

DeathBurst2 votes

Riot is balancing the game mostly for high Plat unless it creates a problem somewhere else, with an occasional Patch or two dedicated for Pro Play.

The game is NOT primarily balanced NEITHER for Pro or Casual, but for high Plat.

Stinrygar2 votes

I thought the shut down gold change was good but in the end, I think it's more RNG. I'm not so convinced anymore.

LVL99 Helper TK2 votes

every single sentence in this thread is 100 percent on point. I hope Riot sees this and does some serious self reflections but who am I kidding, they're so far up their own asses at this point, pulling them out might be impossible.

Serika Zero1 votes

topic relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MXNyiMGb28

ps: riot balances the game around what it gives the most revenue in $$$ while you might disagree with it, psychology plays a huge role in it

ps2: i disagree with your stance of: its impossible to carry games. Or that you have to play close to perfection to climb. Even in the example you gave:

Example you just need your adc to group so you can siege the tower, but instead the split push to get cs and get assasinated.

you can, you know, WATCH THE MINIMAP and follow the adc on it. If you aren't doing it, at least the support should.

So, mistake nr1: adc goes to farm mistake nr2: support doesn't go with the adc mistake nr3: the rest of you (top, mid, jungle) also don't go with the adc.

Look, if 1 player decides to do stuff a bit differently, the 4 of you that are presumable so amazingly good, can just play around that player. But, no, its not just 1 player making a mistake, there are 3 mistakes made by all players in the team. AND, IN THE ENEMY TEAM, THE PLAYER THAT ASSASSINATES THE ADC IS ACTUALLY CARING.

Because they must make the decision to go, and try to assassinate the adc without fully knowing if that adc has back-up or not.

ps3: the fact that one player goes on his random own, while both teams are sort of equal in power and that causing the game to be lost has been happening since I started playing this game (season 3) and its not something new. And has been happening at silver elo and above (i never was bronze to know what happened there).

Thefrostyviking1 votes

OP you really think a new MOBA might come out and actually hurt lol?

Just look at all the recent ones, i myself find this quite questionable.

Paragon, shutting down and actually refunding everything after whatever royal screwup they pulled.

HOTS, has apparently gone and crippled two of their classes but mainly their specialists resulting in massive discontent. '

Battlerite? You mean the game dedicated to Aram? Well sure if thats you thing <.<'

Smite? I actually have no idea, game seems cool but since i havent played it and my friends who did told me it wasnt all that great i can only assume its not that popular given that no one ever seem to mention it anywhere.

DOTA2? These fellows are marching to the beat of their own drums, which does keep their fans happy but at the same time i have repeatedly been told that several of their champs constantly sit at like 60%+ winrates for weeks if not months.

And thats for the general playerbase, not the mains.

Those and a even worse tutorial for new players+more complex game than league has results in a game that has a lot of elitists and a lack of new players who actually stick around.

So now back to league.......sure Riot does screw up every now and then but they change things enough to keep them interesting and big issue´s tend to be solved.....eventually.

Many of their core problems like irrelevant supports and lack of identity difference between divers/tanks and different types of mages all used to cause massive hidden issue´s and yet all that is slowly being fixed.

Marksmen are staring their own rework in the eye.

Once all is said and done i think league is among the best, we just have to endure the occasional downpour of misery like the scuttler change but in return bigger things are slowly getting fixed.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Umm dude smite is 100% identical to league. Same champs same classea same maps. Actually you have to aim your aa. More game play maps. Hots is fine as well. Rotating maps more team based more objective based then league is so yah also people actually choose supp

Thefrostyviking2 votes

{quoted}

Umm dude smite is 100% identical to league. Same champs same classea same maps. Actually you have to aim your aa. More game play maps. Hots is fine as well. Rotating maps more team based more objective based then league is so yah also people actually choose supp

Smite 100% identical to lol? O_O

Are you kidding with me?

I have looked it up a bit, that game uses mythological characters as inspiration for their champions, so you have picks like Zeus, thor, Bellona, nyx, kali and other various gods from various religions.

Should be fairly different from lol i think? O_O

Hots is fine you say........i have been seeing endless complaints from its very own players about the "uniqueness" dying out with its support and specialist classes being nerfed like constantly whilst sieging being made more difficult when not grouping and other classes getting access to more waveclear in general.

People there are definitely a lot more unhappy than the ones here, somehow, a friend of mine told me its basically becoming some kinda battlerite ripoff but with a laning phase that lasts until either team gets confident enough to start contesting objectives.

Then just endless skirmishing and running around since losing even a single objective hurts and having to group to deal with a lost one is too damaging.

I dont know about others but for me the biggest things about HOTS were the changing maps and objectives, the much more relevant supports and the unique specialists.....with those later two gone its not quite as interesting anymore.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Umm smite and league are pretty much the same

IS1a35739310e64704643991 votes

just play smite. it's miles better than lol and more fun.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Stop crying. If this is your complaint go play heroes of the storm. Thats more teambased and more objective play

muted team chat1 votes

When it's 20+ min and your ADC goes bot over and over and over to farm waves, you know the game is over and you have wasted a half hour or more.

Flashes1 votes

This isn't ALWAYS true. Sometimes, they're pushing waves or managing them!

Face The Ban1 votes

Nothing to do with Riot, this fanbase is just absolutely cancerous and complain about everything, guess that's what happens to F2P games

ı Sona ı1 votes

I've watched some matches and I wonder if some of the teams who lose are just playing too clever? What happened to Malphite Top lane, Rammus jungle, Annie Mid Lane, Ashe ADC, Sona support?

Or Miss Fortune ADC, Morgana Support, Karthus Mid Lane, Amumu Jungle, Olaf top?

Strong team lineups with ample synergy, engage, and fire power.

AMX HaXoR1 votes

Nah the MOBA genre is dead m8 It`s all about battle royale now.

Burn for me1 votes

It's very simple why and you've already said it so here's the tl;dr

You can't win alone, but the moron Nunu jungler who gave the enemy Zed 5 kills in 10 minutes single handedly handed them the win. You know what you can do about it? Nothing. You're worthless just as that Nunu. Your impact is approaching 0 from the negative side.

This is what Riot has created. A "team" game that forces perfect communicative gameplay which doesn't exist in soloqueue, in any rank, where you can't solo win but definitely solo lose the game.

I'm done. I'm beyond done. I had a perfectly comfy 60% WR at around 100 games when all of a sudden the system decided to match me with mid Quinns, jungle Teemos and 2-minute-into-the-game AFKers. This never happened in the first 100 games. This "started" happening when I went from gold to Plat 5, where I'm currently stuck at a declining %WR and MMR. This won't stop. It's all in the algorithm. Don't even bother to try and suggest otherwise.

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