"lets remove this and that from vayne's kit! that'll balance her"

SwapShadows·Aug 31, 2015·36 votes·3,465 views

or people could realize that Vayne's main problem is that her ultimate is on a very low CD and it's practically up everytime she gets into a fight or tries to assassinate a solo farmer.

A lot of ADCs get punished pretty heavily if they waste their ultimates on small skirmishes and don't have it up for a upcoming teamfight but Vayne doesn't really suffer this problem.

tl;dr increase her ultimates CD so she can't snowball as easily and has to rely on surviving the laning phase like she always has.

61 Comments

Nameless VoiceAug 31, 201523 votes

I still say the main reason that Vayne is problematic is because Blade of the Ruined King is so good on her, both enhancing her strengths (on-hit damage, % health) and compensating for her weaknesses with sustain, peel, and burst.

SwapShadowsAug 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=37Lw7OAO,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-08-31T14:15:27.782+0000)

I still say the main reason that Vayne is problematic is because Blade of the Ruined King is so good on her, both enhancing her strengths (on-hit damage, % health) and compensating for her weaknesses with sustain, peel, and burst.

Very true but Vayne is in between kalista and other ADCs were she wants damage/crits but she also needs that early attack speed which is why botrk is amazing on her.

also helps her self peel or catch potential

A Miss FortuneSep 1, 20151 votes

No, Runaan's is secretly the best item on Vayne you just don't realize it yet.

Vayne item 3085

CppLAug 31, 201510 votes

No.Her problem is her W (silver bolts) wich has no counterplay.

SwapShadowsAug 31, 201518 votes

{quoted}

No.Her problem is her W (silver bolts) wich has no counterplay.

No actually it's not, she's always had that and she used to be considered quite balanced or underpowered because she had a weaker laning phase than most ADCs

foinhasAug 31, 201511 votes

True story.

Vayne wasn't such an issue when she was low tier in range champ. She now sits in medium tier, since the number of champs with less range/same is higher than those with more range. The "low range" excuse no longer works in her case

EndlessSorcererAug 31, 20152 votes

Vayne is low ranged because she has no abilities which can affect opponents beyond her autoattack range and, unlike Tristana and Twitch, doesn't have anything to extend her autoattack range.

Pretty much every other ADC can affect targets from well beyond their autoattack range, but Vayne can't. Even if she has the default AA range of 550, she can't do anything beyond that.

foinhasAug 31, 20151 votes

Vayne also have abilities. Plus, no adc rely uniquely on their skillshots to trade

EndlessSorcererAug 31, 20151 votes

They aren't reliant on them to trade, but it gives them an advantage for poking since Vayne won't always be in range to immediately retaliate.

Yes, Vayne has abilities. However, none of them let her affect a target from beyond her autoattack range. While her Q and passive can help her get in range, she is still limited to autoattack range to fight. That was the point of my argument.

Tails DollAug 31, 20152 votes

When you got a MS passive and a low gap closer with low cd, you dont need anything to extend your range.

Sniper 0Aug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No actually it's not, she's always had that and she used to be considered quite balanced or underpowered because she had a weaker laning phase than most ADCs

To be fair a lot of adc's have been nerfed since she was considered balanced. Nerfs to other viable picks make sleeper champs strong.

Lost In TimeAug 31, 20156 votes

{quoted}

No.Her problem is her W (silver bolts) wich has no counterplay.

Counterplay is forcing her to switch opponents so she never procs them

Oh, wait, you mean you wanted counter_build_? Not everything can be solved by itemization, especially when it's a L2P issue. Sorry!

AlphadefAug 31, 20151 votes

She can usually stick to the one target, and if forced to switch she can probably stack it on them either way. Besides, I want to see two people jumping in and out of her range actually do anything to her.

AMYS GRAVEAug 31, 20153 votes

So you aren't allowed to spend more than one second within her range. God forbid any of her teammates have any cc at all to keep you there. Or think about the fact that she only needs two AA + condmen to proc silver bolts. Or remember that condemn comes with its own cc to ensure you can't get away. Or remember that her first core item comes with an active slow that ensures she can stick to you. Or remember that she can tumble to reposition as nessicary to ensure her silver bolts procs.

Vayne has so many tools to ensure her silver bolts procs that saying "just outplay her" is assuming that she is the only member of her team and is over simplifying the situation and is quite franky insulting.

Sakura MirageAug 31, 20156 votes

{quoted}

No.Her problem is her W (silver bolts) wich has no counterplay.

item 3143 item 3110 item 3075 summoner 3 there is always counterplay to every champion's abilities

ArkenStormAug 31, 201512 votes

if you need 3 items and a summoner spell just to counter one champion, something is wrong.

GorgannanAug 31, 20153 votes

You don't need all of them. He's showing all the options.

Many champions require 3 items to counter build including annie and malzahar.

ArkenStormAug 31, 20152 votes

except you really DO need all those items to counter vayne, at least partially counter.

And you bringing up annie and malz disproves my point how?

GorgannanAug 31, 20152 votes

Randuin's plus frozen heart would shut her down completely. Anyone can out damage a 35% - AS Vayne.

ArkenStormSep 1, 20151 votes

I'm not saying those items WOULDN'T shut her down, I'm saying that being required to have ALL those items to do so is a problem.

CansemaAug 31, 20155 votes

you say low CD... lets look at that Vayne : 100/85/70 Varus : 110/90/70 Urgot : 120/100/80 Twitch : 120/110/100 Sivir : 120/100/80 Tristana :100/85/70 Quinn :140/110/80 MissFortune :120/110/100 Lucian :110/100/90 KogMaw :2/1.5/1 Kalista :90/75/60 Jinx :90/75/60 Ezreal : 80 Draven :110/100/90 Corki :2 - 12/10/8 recharge Caitlyn : 90/75/60 Ashe : 100/90/80

maybe the fact that vaynes ult does more than give her increased damage.. maybe the stealth makes her stronger and her ult encourages dueling instead of execution or control..

too bad trists ult doesnt stick someone to a wall because of the impact.. sivir as we all know her nick name is 'scuttle crab' so.. but yeah.. vayne is designed to duel people.. she is well designed for what she does.

SEKAIAug 31, 20154 votes

Yeah, homogenise her, sit her in line with other ADCs. Except she isn't like other ADCs in the first place.

Keeping her aggressive play style, while making sure she wouldn't be too out of control while doing so is the way to go. I don't think removing features is a wrong move.

SwapShadowsAug 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, homogenise her, sit her in line with other ADCs.

Except she isn't like other ADCs in the first place.

Keeping her aggressive play style, while making sure she wouldn't be too out of control while doing so is the way to go.

right now her playstyle is a bit too aggressive due to her ability to use her ultimate in every fighting situation, increasing that CD would tone her snowballing down.

SEKAIAug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

right now her playstyle is a bit too aggressive due to her ability to use her ultimate in every fighting situation, increasing that CD would tone her snowballing down.

I would say, just slightly, enough to maybe hinder her a little but not change her. A couple like 5 seconds is all we need.

While applying the feature removals, 1 or 2 of them.

EDIT: Actually, don't even need 2 in this case, 1 should be cool.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 31, 20153 votes

Except her ult really isn't that powerful. Most of her power is in her 3 main abilities, rather than her ult. The reason why many other ADCs get punished for ulting in skirmishes is because their ults are major parts of their damage output.

Her real problem is that she has a safe early game, and a hypercarry-level late game, and that she is a tankbuster who can burst down both tanks and squishies equally quickly.

SwapShadowsAug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Except her ult really isn't that powerful. Most of her power is in her 3 main abilities, rather than her ult. The reason why many other ADCs get punished for ulting in skirmishes is because their ults are major parts of their damage output.

Her real problem is that she has a safe early game, and a hypercarry-level late game, and that she is a tankbuster who can burst down both tanks and squishies equally quickly.

I don't understand how people can think that her ultimate isn't that strong.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 31, 20151 votes

It's strong, but compared to Kalista (who's ult is a huge knockup), Sivir (who's ult is her major engage tool), Trist (who's ult is a Condemn that can hit multiple people), Corki/Kog (who's ults are long range, low CD poke), or Lucian (who's ult is a drive-by), it's pretty meh.

OOOOHHHHBABYSep 1, 20151 votes

Because its sustained based, not burst based

HayRossAug 31, 20153 votes

The ultimate's cooldown should be increased. It's FINAL hour, not EVERY hour.

PennsAug 31, 20152 votes

This wont do shit to balance her kek are u a Vayne main?

SwapShadowsAug 31, 20153 votes

{quoted}

This wont do shit to balance her kek are u a Vayne main?

No it's just the most realistic way of balancing her that anyone with good gameknowledge can come up with.

sorry that your game knowledge is bad.

PennsAug 31, 20154 votes

Your* :^) And how exactly does this balance her in any way? Its a short steroid that buffs her passive and gives her short stealth, nothing too big. It doesnt give her 800 range aoe autos either, the low cooldown is deserved. Vaynes balance problems are anywhere but in her ult lol.

SwapShadowsAug 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Your* :^) And how exactly does this balance her in any way? Its a short steroid that buffs her passive and gives her short stealth, nothing too big. It doesnt give her 800 range aoe autos either, the low cooldown is deserved. Vaynes balance problems are anywhere but in her ult lol.

No offence but that sounds incredibly stupid. Her ultimate is THE reason she is the best dueling ADC in the game and it's what makes her Vayne. Im quite shocked that someone would think her ultimate is "nothing too big" when it gives her both combat and defensive upgrades.

also fixed the typo thx

PennsAug 31, 20152 votes

I never said its not strong, its just not overpowered. The stealth is neglectable and countered by detection, the MS and AD are pretty good, nothing you would have to nerf to really change much about her current state. What makes Vayne Vayne is her W which you cant directly itemize against and her Q which gives her infinite mobility and bonus damage, not her ult that makes her look cool and do more damage for a few seconds lel. Apart from that Vayne ult doesnt even HAVE low CD lol. Ashe basically has the same, Cait has lower cd, Ezreal, Graves, Jinx, Kalista, Tristana, Varus,.. They all have around the same cooldown, whyd you want to nerf that?

SwapShadowsAug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I never said its not strong, its just not overpowered. The stealth is neglectable and countered by detection, the MS and AD are pretty good, nothing you would have to nerf to really change much about her current state. What makes Vayne Vayne is her W which you cant directly itemize against and her Q which gives her infinite mobility and bonus damage, not her ult that makes her look cool and do more damage for a few seconds lel. Apart from that Vayne ult doesnt even HAVE low CD lol. Ashe basically has the same, Cait has lower cd, Ezreal, Graves, Jinx, Kalista, Tristana, Varus,.. They all have around the same cooldown, whyd you want to nerf that?

no but you just said it's not that great of an ultimate in your first post.

get your thoughts together

PennsAug 31, 20152 votes

You said "Vaynes main problem is her low CD ultimate" and "a lot of ADCs get punished because theirs is higher" which isnt true whatsoever. Get your thoughts together kek. rekt

ParessAug 31, 20151 votes

Her range. Bye

Br4ndonAug 31, 20151 votes

I'm not a big fan of abilities like Vayne's ult.

Just an ability that gives stats. How do you interact with that? She presses R and gets 3500~g worth of stats plus a stealth.

The best you can do is attempt to run if youre alone and not far enough ahead of her that you can possibly duel her. Or hope that you can chain CC her for 12 seconds.

LuggAug 31, 20151 votes

Riot really needs to lower her starting base stats in AS and AD and have it scale back up to normal by level 11. That way she is actually weak early but still has a good mid and monster late game.

BisaknospAug 31, 20151 votes

lol the ult is not the problem what did you smoke

SwapShadowsAug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

lol the ult is not the problem what did you smoke

Just being 100% honest, if you seriously think that Vayne's ultimate is not one of her strongest suits then you're not very educated on the game.

enhances her mobility, self-peel, gap closing potential, escape, attack damage and it gives her a stealth that you can hold for a long time if you don't auto after Qing.

Now that you've been informed that should help you realize why it needs to be on a longer CD

DracosKasuAug 31, 20151 votes

The problem is if they nerf vayne, they need to do the same to Kalista, Tristana and Jinx. Those are currently the best of the adc

bakenhunterAug 31, 20151 votes

I'll admit her ult is very strong, the AD steroid blows Twitch 's out of the water and gives her near instant invisibility and better chasing power, all for less mana and on a lower CD.

ShadowParkerAug 31, 20151 votes

Personally. I think her ult's actually pretty weak. The cooldown on it is fine. What I want to see though, is her ult get buffs, while the rest of her gets nerfed. She's super strong even without her ultimate, where it should be she's strong during her ultimate, not without it.

chide da junglerAug 31, 20151 votes

Rather than breaking a single aspect of Vayne, she could easily be adjusted by adding minor nerfs on a few things. Like increase CD on Q combined with a slightly lower stealth duration on Q during ult.

SPICYXLAug 31, 20151 votes

Or you could realize that Vayne is not the problem. It's because EVERY SINGLE adc that could stomp her into the ground in lane got nerfed, and thus she rose to the top. It just works like that.

Vegas DadAug 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Or you could realize that Vayne is not the problem. It's because EVERY SINGLE adc that could stomp her into the ground in lane got nerfed, and thus she rose to the top. It just works like that.

No it is vayne and has been for ages she really should not have stealth on top of everything else she has always been the top of the food chain who wins every 1 v 1 period the only option was an extremely lopsided lane phase which isn't balance in anyway shape or form.

Vegas DadAug 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

or people could realize that Vayne's main problem is that her ultimate is on a very low CD and it's practically up everytime she gets into a fight or tries to assassinate a solo farmer.

A lot of ADCs get punished pretty heavily if they waste their ultimates on small skirmishes and don't have it up for a upcoming teamfight but Vayne doesn't really suffer this problem.

tl;dr increase her ultimates CD so she can't snowball as easily and has to rely on surviving the laning phase like she always has.

Or her kit is overloaded having stealth on ult plus tumble plus condem makes for an obnoxiously strong toolkit for offense and defense compared to other adc's. She is ultra safe and agro just remove stealth from her ult.

chipndip1Sep 1, 20151 votes

Vayne's issue is that she's literally 1/2 adc, yet 1/2 assassin. Her ult comes up and she gets stealth and a ton of movement towards enemies. That and her Silver Bolts adding true damage while she's fighting allows her to always land the first hit and quickly deal with people in 1v1 scenarios (ESPECIALLY if they're near walls). At the same time, she's ranged, so she doesn't have to pounce like assassins do. She simply has to aim and kite like adcs do. Seeing how she's primarily an adc, they need to nerf the assassin-like qualities of her kit: her tumble could be put on a longer cd or her ult could be put on a longer cd. Her passive movement towards champs with/without Final Hour could possibly be looked at as well. Basically, leave the damages alone but look at the utility aspect of her kit that allows her to easily utilize her damage...in my opinion.

The LovelessSep 1, 20151 votes

She was intended to be a solo lane assassin. That's what they had in mind for her, but I think this was before right-clickers became community-enforced bot laners.

She should maintain that huntress identity, but I agree with the OP that if anything HAD to be changed, it's a CD bump on her ult.