Blaming “damage creep” for current balance issues missed an array of much larger problems at hand

HateDaddy··33 votes·11,333 views

Greetings,

As some of you know, I’ve been playing some league again (and if you don’t know me, relax! I’m merely an old boards spammer). I can confess to not being as informed about current game strategies, balance issues and the state of the game as I once was but I know a few things.

For quite awhile now, this Boards section has been known for having a hideously large mage and tank bias while being anti-AD more or less. The fact that damage creep even gets mentioned ignores that one of their favorite classes is partly responsible for this inane concept. Cognitive dissonance and the logic people bend to resolve it, my friends. Anyhow, I digress and now move on to some of my more refined points.

Damage Creep - is it real?

Theoretically, absolutely. The same way mobility creep is; the same way any other acceleration of one hyper-focused element of the game is when it leaves other elements it is entangled with in the dust. Unlike mobility creep though, damage hasn’t really accelerated to out of control levels in comparison to the other participating aspect of this two-headed coin: defensive values. There’s little doubt, defensive values have absolutely taken a hit over the years while keystones haven’t really panned our either. Indeed, offensive keystones have absolutely been the cause of several balance issues. That said, offensive values have had their fair share of hits over the years, too. That isn’t even mentioning how many offensive items - both AP and AD - have become more expensive, have worse build paths and quite frankly, aren’t really even viable. Narrowly focusing on damage as if it’s a culprit is disingenuous to your own argument since your argument is ultimately about balance. Damage has suffered, too - it just hasn’t suffered as much as defense. I should be clear though: individual, self-sustained defense. Because defensive utility items and tema defensive contributions like shields and %reduction on allies has been a nightmare for balance in recent years.

My interpretation of damage creep is that it’s a misunderstood and often time hive-minded upon phenomena that doesn’t hold water, lacks critical thinking, hasn’t had the skepticism from the community that it deserves and most importantly: is a symptom or a byproduct of much larger problems at hand. The narrow focus and tunnel vision on this one supposed aspect of the game because of it’s catchy nature and boards-trendy popularity has actually had some negative effects on many of you: you aren’t critically thinking about much bigger problems.

Does this mean damage has never been a problem? Absolutely not, damage has most certainly been a problem - it very well could even be a problem now. That’s especially true for burst damage, especially when many champions become very bursty when that’s not their intended design pattern (in the past, a full build ADC for example). However, this speaks to a much larger problem. Damage isn’t really causing these issues. As a byproduct, it becomes glaring and visually scoffing but in reality, damage creep isn’t a big problem, one of the problems mentioned above is: individual chanpions being independently durable. Sure, some champion me like Galio, Orn and a few others have such nasty built in steroids that they can accomplish this. But others rely on defensive items, but many of these items have been nerfed down and this has pigeon holed most into generic builds that get the few viable defensive items nerfed. Lack of individual defensive prowess through itemization. As I noted, this is not a problem for team utility defensive items but those don't always get used on front liners.

Another issue is that towers continue to become weaker, Baron has become easier to do and scaling across the board is so wonky right now that the best thing to do is pick up champions that excel in skirmishes and picks that also only need 1-2 items to snowball, many of these items being cheap to boot. Is this the fault of bruisers or assassins? Well, they might be a tad too strong but the real issue is that due to summoner rift balance adjustments that continue to accelerate game pace, the nerfed down ADC items and other factors, they’ve become a beneficiary of the current games dynamics and the cherished fruit that comes with it.

Let me be clear, these are the types of changes that cause long term problems and instead of adjusting these global changes, riot nerfs champions or classes of champions or sometimes, classes of items. Another problem is poor resource adjustment. The new champions are great and that’s a positive to the game every time something new and exciting comes out. But do these champions really need to be this complicated? Riot also fixates on certain design philosophies that make stretches of new champions abusable and absurd (ridiculous mobility plus the biblical three: 3 attacks procs insane damage from this spell!). This isn’t the fault of new champions though, this is riots failure to update older champions at an equal pace. Like really, how many times do you have to rework Ryze to realize his kit and it’s design can never work and it needs to be scraped entirely. Many of the reworks have also been poorly thought out, rushed and lack the same type of attention that they need - the attention of a new champion, for example. That’s not to say there haven’t been good reworks because there have, but the bad are most certainly more notable than the good.

In reality, all of these much larger problems are for more damaging to leagues balance and popularity than this nonsense term “damage creep.” The damage is what you see but high damage didn’t make Riot rework ryze 17 times. High damage isn’t causing most of the problems in fact, it’s just a byproduct of the problems and feels the most

TL;DR FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT ENJOY READING In short, damage is likely a problem but it’s not causing the problems you see today. It’s bad defensive items for individual champions, horrible tower and objective mechanics that favor early game champions and snowballing and pisspoor champion kit rebalancing and resource management towards that. There are other problems I also haven’t mentioned, or frankly, I likely haven’t even noticed. I urge others to bring up other aspects that are contributing to this because of you do, that’s when you’ll actually have quality discussion rather than this non-sense circlejerk over “damage creep” and an argument that hasn’t evolved or progressed since it’s inception.

80 Comments

Tegash8 votes

I agree that damage creep is a symptom, not the problem itself, but you can't deny that it is a main factor in the game's volatility at present.

Hemulen Magi3 votes

Damage creep is a really big factor honestly. Damage creep and snowballing go pretty hand in hand, but early on even a Lulu with just item 3098 takes half a squishies health with a single short trade right now.

Tegash1 votes

The thing is, damage has been slowly ramping since the beginning of the game. Armor, meanwhile, hasn't changed since season 1.

There have been a couple SPECIFIC items that get tweaked ever so often (Thornmail, Frozen Heart, etc), but for the most part the stats remain the same, while the PASSIVES get weaker and COSTS remain prohibitive.

Meanwhile big AD items get cheaper and stronger, and the newer AD items (Lethality Items in particular) cost a pittance in compared to the stats that are supposed to counter them.

And on top of that, offensive runes keep getting buffed unless they overperform on several specific AD champions, and defensive runes keep getting gutted.

SwiftKitten884 votes

.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puEso0JSOVA

this is season 3 damage... at FASTER than normal speed.

THE END!!!

but really.. if u think damage creep isnt a thing.. your delusional.

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puEso0JSOVA

this is season 3 damage... at FASTER than normal speed.

THE END!!!

but really.. if u think damage creep isnt a thing.. your delusional.

That’s pretty much what early game damage would look like now, actually. Also, even if damage would seem slightly higher now, it speaks more to poor defensive prowess than it does to damage skyrocketing out of control. It’s true, current keystones/runes do not favor defensive champions the way older runes/masteries did. This isn’t damage creep. This isn’t damage being increased so much that it’s making defense worthless. This is just riot making defense worthless. I’ll use an example to clear this up:

It’s like taking somebodies bulletproof vest off. That vest might stop a bullet but your chest most certainly won’t. At that point, once the vest is removed, let’s be honest - just about any bullet is going to kill you. Did bullets and all the different types of guns become OP? No, they didn’t. Riot just crippled your ability to survive gunshots.

The Bad Touch7 votes

That's like saying death isn't the issue... lack of life is.

/facepalm

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zd8q2ws,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T22:56:57.273+0000)

That's like saying death isn't the issue... lack of life is.

/facepalm

No, it’s not. You’re isolating a fraction of the point I’m making without context but that’s okay, I’ll explain it for you. Your complaint is that damage creep is causing balance problems and that’s where you’re wrong. Damage creep is the byproduct of many other, much larger balance problems, like poor individual defense. This wasn’t caused by high insane damage, this was caused by riot making defense shit. Damage creep also didn’t cause riot to gut towers, make baron easier and introduce dragons into the game that gave more damage against champions and structures. Again, it’s a byproduct of the problem - not the thing that’s causing the problems.

The Bad Touch6 votes

The net result is exactly the same functionality wise. More defense or less damage... either change has the same result. It's just a pointless argument in semantics. Increasing defenses lowers damage, decreasing damage lowers damage.

You are effective arguing that (100/50)/(100/25)=.5 and (100/50)/(200/50)=.5 are not equal.

Either way people die twice as fast.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zd8q2ws,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-11T23:08:10.245+0000)

The net result is exactly the same functionality wise. More defense or less damage... either change has the same result.

Increases defenses lowers damage, decreasing damage lowers damage.

Except it isn’t. That’s because damage creep has always implied that damage has skyrocketed while defense has plummeted. That simply isn’t true. Defense has simply been nerfed to shit while offensive values have more or less remained the same or slightly weakened as well. I agree with the idea that offensive keystones are ridiculous but that still isn’t the sole contributor to “damage creep.” And because damage creep gets used as a reason for all the problems like snowballing and game pace, it’s especially important to point out these small differences in philosophy. Because then we aren’t discussing what’s actually wrong and that diminishes the effectiveness of said discussion. And that makes any and all feedback we provide worse off.

The Bad Touch3 votes

You obviously haven't looked at Kai'Sa's ratios.

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bad Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zd8q2ws,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-07-12T00:47:27.805+0000)

You obviously haven't looked at Kai'Sa's ratios.

Kai’sa gets picked 5 times by both teams every game? Otherwise, you’re talking about one champion out of 100+

MrHaZeYo6 votes

You state you didn't read then proceed to argue the point?

Makes sense.

The Bad Touch1 votes

I didn't read the text wall no.

I'm also not responding to the text wall... nor was I having a conversation with you.

I'm talking to Hatedaddy so butt the fuck out.

MrHaZeYo5 votes

And yet the point your arguing is a point made in his wall of post.

You can't handle talking to more then one person at the same time?

DNFVixen1 votes

{quoted}

That’s pretty much what early game damage would look like now, actually. Also, even if damage would seem slightly higher now, it speaks more to poor defensive prowess than it does to damage skyrocketing out of control. It’s true, current keystones/runes do not favor defensive champions the way older runes/masteries did. This isn’t damage creep. This isn’t damage being increased so much that it’s making defense worthless. This is just riot making defense worthless. I’ll use an example to clear this up:

It’s like taking somebodies bulletproof vest off. That vest might stop a bullet but your chest most certainly won’t. At that point, once the vest is removed, let’s be honest - just about any bullet is going to kill you. Did bullets and all the different types of guns become OP? No, they didn’t. Riot just crippled your ability to survive gunshots.

Actually you might want to look at dmg ratios from season 3 to now, you will see almost nothing but dmg increases from season 5-now

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Idk man, I agree with what he said, back in S3 we used to build a Def item as ADCs or Mages and they made the difference.

Ralanr2 votes

Honestly idk why people stopped doing that, or why they lash out when I suggest it.

Feel Apathy4 votes

Cause people are idiots, literally.

The most "viable" builds always include items that boost you to 2k+ hp and 100 mr & armor at the same time.

There are some champions that cannot afford that sadly, due to movement speed restrictions or low numbers on lvl 5 spells, while others are perfectly fine like assassins building item 3026 item 3156 that both boost survivability and damage.

So if anything's wrong, it's player's mentality.

Literally 99% of these forums haven't played the game in its earliest stages, where LB and Kassawin were silencing and killing you in a rotation from 800+ range distance.

Malzahar dropping W>R and killing a full tank in s1.

Ap alistar dropping 5 people in a combo to 10% hp.

Ap gragas with the instant cask.

List goes on, people are **TERRIBLE **at the game and simply cannot accept it.

The "damage creep" is literally just nobody having the bonus +12 armor and +13 magic resist we used to have with the old system.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Nah the damage creep is a bit more severe.

Stuff like duskblade didnt exist, static shiv didnt deal 400 on a crit if i recall.....it didnt crit at all? And stormrazor wasnt a thing either.

So in some aspects the damage creep is real however its not the only thing happening, CDR has become way more abundant, resistances on runes as you mentioned AND champions have been lowered.

That coupled with stuff like maw barrier nerfed, MR removed from GA, resistances lowered and health removed from item 3102 .

Warmog health reduced, various armor items nerfed.

OP makes an excellent point, damage creep has happened, however defensive stats have been taking a ton of hits on the side as well which in turn makes the damage creep that much worse.

Cosnirak3 votes

Because Riot made numerous changes that made that less worth while. Banshee's and GA both now give primarily damage stats and both had their unique defensive effects nerfed. Many purely defensive items were nerfed. The actually real damage creep that has happened means buying 1 or 1.5 defensive items still doesn't save you most of the time so we're incentivized to just focus on buying more damage instead.

The point is that this isn't merely a shift in player choice or perspective, this is the result of Riot's actions and yes further adds to effective damage creep.

SugeMinPikk4 votes

Putting a lot more effort into your bait than usual

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Putting a lot more effort into your bait than usual

??

Leonerdo3 votes

A pretty good theory. A little patronizing as usual though. Good to have you back.

Currently, I'm waiting to see how much the "nerf Conqueuror -> get tanks back into the game" plan works out. If that doesn't suffice, then I'll agree that perhaps defensive options just aren't good enough to compete with all the offensive multiplier items out there right now.

It probably doesn't help that all the "defensive options" for carries include a ton of AD/AP. Because god forbid an ADC ever forgoes damage to build somthing like a Randuin's (when versus a fed Yasuo).

Just my two cents. Everyone seems to have their own theory, though, assuming they've dug deeper than "damage is too high".

xJLx MCHammer3 votes

I wont respond to the text wall completely. I also don't this it's fair for the OP for me to just pick out specific parts of his argument. Ultimately, there is a damage creep. it's real. To deny that is idiotic. No, it's not a by product of a hive mind.

Most of what you listed including the issue regarding towers and baron is a "byproduct" of damage creep. Damage has been increase by a large margin. The bigger issue is, Riot has purposely allowed more champions/abilities to have %HP damage. This allows Riot to better control damage on a larger scale. Riot has also increase damage dealt to turret (for AP champions, tanks..etc) which in turn feeds the damage creep.

See OP, the problem with your analysis is that you tried to separate damage increase with defense increase. You said it yourself, "It’s bad defensive items for individual champions"

This is what damage creep is. When you increase damage while every other stat doesn't get compensated. You do that enough and you start building up what people call damage creep. Look at individual changes like Poppy on patch notes http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Poppy There is a patch where they out of nowhere increased her damage, but lowered her defensive stats. If all other variables stated the same (Items, towers..etc), this results into a small damage creep. There was a post a few week ago, someone who complied a list of changes that increase and decreased damage. There was a significant more changes that increased the damage. This was for both items and champions.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zd8q2ws,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-07-12T04:07:18.055+0000)

I wont respond to the text wall completely. I also don't this it's fair for the OP for me to just pick out specific parts of his argument. Ultimately, there is a damage creep. it's real. To deny that is idiotic. No, it's not a by product of a hive mind.

Most of what you listed including the issue regarding towers and baron is a "byproduct" of damage creep. Damage has been increase by a large margin. The bigger issue is, Riot has purposely allowed more champions/abilities to have %HP damage. This allows Riot to better control damage on a larger scale. Riot has also increase damage dealt to turret (for AP champions, tanks..etc) which in turn feeds the damage creep.

See OP, the problem with your analysis is that you tried to separate damage increase with defense increase. You said it yourself, "It’s bad defensive items for individual champions"

This is what damage creep is. When you increase damage while every other stat doesn't get compensated. You do that enough and you start building up what people call damage creep. Look at individual changes like Poppy on patch notes http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Poppy There is a patch where they out of nowhere increased her damage, but lowered her defensive stats. If all other variables stated the same (Items, towers..etc), this results into a small damage creep. There was a post a few week ago, someone who complied a list of changes that increase and decreased damage. There was a significant more changes that increased the damage. This was for both items and champions.

The thing is, this is a point where we start arguing about a semantical title of a phenomna. In reality, we probably agree on almost everything that has transpired and the problems it has led to balance-wise. However, as I previously stated in some replies, I believe labeling this “damage creep” as one overall, overarching theme actually reduces the effectiveness of the argument against the current state of balance itself.

All things being equal, when we refer to these phenomena’s of a certain stat or aspect leaving other parts of the game in the dust, as you and I have pointed out, you can’t define it in isolation. With “damage creep,” we are have to be mindful that damage is a two headed coin. Damage and Defense. This obviously applies to towers, objectives, champions and monsters. However, I am not willing to label this damage creep because it’s not something new outpacing the old - it’s the same entity having two different forms of expression (damage and defense) having one that is more clearly favored than the other. One is treated well (damage), the other is treated poorly (defense). I know what you’re thinking, “but HateDaddy, that IS damage creep!” Is it though? You can’t have one without the other and unlike something as narrow as mobility, as in mobility creep, damage and defense are constructs of every single process of this game. Sure, it’s “damage creep,” but what it ultimately is in a more accurate version is Riot wanting a faster game and reducing defense. This isn’t the fault of damage anymore than it’s the failure of defense, this is something Riot is completely intending to do, whereas something like mobility creep isn’t. Because of that, I believe that labeling this as a single construct and ignoring the two-headed coin and all the variables attached to (calling all of the above damage creep) both dilutes our arguements and discussions because it attempts to simplify something that has several complicated variables and as a result, reduces the effectiveness of our feedback.

I realize that was a lot to read and I’m sorry for that, but again, we both have the same ideas and belief systems. We are simply arriving to them via different routes.

ProfDrDeath3 votes

In this case, defensive itemization should probably involved defensive runes and masteries.

Damage, especially early game damage, seems too high (where non-defensive champions are concerned) because baseline defenses have been taking a pounding over the years.

Just compare S2 R/M to (end of) S7 R/M to RR nowadays.

S2 R/M had 36-138 bonus HP, 19 Armor (13 runes + 6 masteries), +14 or +3-29 MR on the defensive side. S7 R/M had 50 bonus HP, 2 reduced damage, 13 Armor and 12/1-27 MR, as well as a conditional 2-27 resistances for 2 seconds. S8 RR has 5 Armor, 40 HP, and bet 15 and 135 HP (which comes with a hefty trade-off in terms of damage).

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

In this case, defensive itemization should probably involved defensive runes and masteries.

Damage, especially early game damage, seems too high (where non-defensive champions are concerned) because baseline defenses have been taking a pounding over the years.

Just compare S2 R/M to (end of) S7 R/M to RR nowadays.

S2 R/M had 36-138 bonus HP, 19 Armor (13 runes + 6 masteries), +14 or +3-29 MR on the defensive side. S7 R/M had 50 bonus HP, 2 reduced damage, 13 Armor and 12/1-27 MR, as well as a conditional 2-27 resistances for 2 seconds. S8 RR has 5 Armor, 40 HP, and bet 15 and 135 HP (which comes with a hefty trade-off in terms of damage).

I think we should probably be a little more narrow in this case. Riot wants a faster game, which means they’ll like introduce snowball mechanics and weaker defense to accommodate that. In order for defense to be a bit better, the games need to slow down so that snowballing can be checked somewhat and defense can have its moments. In other words, we don’t need 20-25 minute games - we need 30-40, maybe even 35-45 minute games.

Cavesloth2 votes

They can HAVE their faster games, just ditch the snowball mechanics. Nobody likes this "I punched you first you lose the game... in 10-15min" meta. Nerf early damage, buff items. Boom old style league at a faster pace. Comebacks are possible, world peace and cold fusion are a thing and EEEEEVERRRYBODIES HAPPPPY.

Ralanr3 votes

The problem is that a faster pace requires them to introduce snowball mechanics and weaker defense, as HateDaddy just said.

Cavesloth1 votes

Weaker defense yes, snowball no. All you need to have faster games is already there, the infamous paper turrets.

Ralanr1 votes

That is a snowball.

Weaker turrets means they go down faster and push you forward more. That’s a snowball.

Cavesloth1 votes

Snowball refers to things that make a player that's ahead get further ahead faster. While the gold from FTB contributes to that, its not the towers health themselves. Most of the snowball comes from Runes giving you more and more damage/mobility/lifesteal from kills making it almost impossible for your opponent to catch up. Things like Dark Harvest, any of the runes with "hunter" in their name etc.

Ralanr1 votes

First tower gold.

Cavesloth1 votes

"While the gold from FTB contributes to that" FTB=First tower blood.

TwitchInMyPants2 votes

The post is overall good but I think you could've summarized most of those blocks of text for the average reader. You did make a list at the bottom but yeah, you still have to read the whole damn thing to see your reasons.

I do think you really downplay the impact of damage creep atm though. Things like weak towers and absurd neutral objectives are much bigger issues than higher damage, but I think if damage was reduced that would make dealing with some of those issues easier. It's easy to focus on the damage creep because its easy to pull old clips of the game and see the difference in pace. It does dramatically limit your choices early. And itemization does play into it given how many tank options are nerfed, but things like the baron buff being absurd, tower durability, or scuttle crab fights being absurd would feel less punishing if champions weren't killing each other (and in turn the objectives) so rapidly. Lowering damage does indirectly alleviate a lot of these issues.

They would obviously need to make more changes, comebacks are nerfed a lot by some of these changes and you wouldn't solve the snowballing by just lowering damage. But opening up the amount of champions by making early game less dangerous would do a lot for game health.

Tormentula2 votes

What I dislike is how the community blames damage creep, but doesn't point out where exactly the damage creep is a problem.

Like ok, item 3147 and assassins power crept to one shot people, but when in history have assassins not been able to do that off of raw damage, and on top of it, when were they viable when they couldn't? There's a reason these were power crept, because you could do their job better with certain divers and even tanks if you left them underpowered.

and THATS, where damage creep comes in, divers, juggernauts, ADCs, and tanks did too much damage and there was no way to bring them down while also keeping them viable. Remember when poppy was unkillable and 100-0'd you to a wall? imagine how shitty assassins felt to get assassinated by a tank, the end result, they were buffed to out compete.

Then when assassins got special treatment in their own items like Duskblade, divers and other classes abused the item because they were simply more powerful then assassins with it, then assassins got buffed to out compete them as duskblade users, and now we're looking at assassins as the main culprit of "too much damage" when them one shotting is nothing new, they just have to do it quicker (an auto) then before, else vi 100-0s people just as well.

Damage creep is hardly the main problem with league unless you're looking at defensive champs that shouldn't be doing damage and out trading every champ in the game, then yes. If their utility was buffed instead, maybe we'd have better peel against the stuff we're complaining about and see less of it, imagine a world where poppy doesn't 100-0 you, but instead just W's a majority of problem children trying to make your day shittier and ults them away, thats a better world.

ADCs I think were a step in the right direction, but a couple could still go down in damage, but then we're back to "everything else is too high in bot lane so ADCs have to do damage to compete".


Not complaining about poppy atm js, but I wouldn't want to see her meta off of damage buffs.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

What I dislike is how the community blames damage creep, but doesn't point out where exactly the damage creep is a problem.

Like ok, item 3147 and assassins power crept to one shot people, but when in history have assassins not been able to do that off of raw damage, and on top of it, when were they viable when they couldn't? There's a reason these were power crept, because you could do their job better with certain divers and even tanks if you left them underpowered.

and THATS, where damage creep comes in, divers, juggernauts, ADCs, and tanks did too much damage and there was no way to bring them down while also keeping them viable. Remember when poppy was unkillable and 100-0'd you to a wall? imagine how shitty assassins felt to get assassinated by a tank, the end result, they were buffed to out compete.

Then when assassins got special treatment in their own items like Duskblade, divers and other classes abused the item because they were simply more powerful then assassins with it, then assassins got buffed to out compete them as duskblade users, and now we're looking at assassins as the main culprit of "too much damage" when them one shotting is nothing new, they just have to do it quicker (an auto) then before, else vi 100-0s people just as well.

Damage creep is hardly the main problem with league unless you're looking at defensive champs that shouldn't be doing damage and out trading every champ in the game, then yes. If their utility was buffed instead, maybe we'd have better peel against the stuff we're complaining about and see less of it, imagine a world where poppy doesn't 100-0 you, but instead just W's a majority of problem children trying to make your day shittier and ults them away, thats a better world.

ADCs I think were a step in the right direction, but a couple could still go down in damage, but then we're back to "everything else is too high in bot lane so ADCs have to do damage to compete".


Not complaining about poppy atm js, but I wouldn't want to see her meta off of damage buffs.

..... i really didnt think i was have to actaully explain this... but it looks like i do. as apparently so few people from season 3 and four remain to understand this

damage creep really starting happening with keystones and the remveal of the old masteries system

http://abccbaandy.github.io/league-S4mastery-calc/

removing that was the starting point

AFTER they added keystones in season five THEN they start upping the damage on items AND items

the assassin rework was another major damage creep point, under the GUISE of "giving more counterplay" which the only even succeeded in doing with Leblanc who got reverted anyways

the BIGGEST jump of all was the removal of runes and the deletion of the entire mastery stsrem in favor of what they now call "runes reforged" which is basially just "do X to burst people more"

then with the removal of sightstone and active item support upgrades supports were no longer able to buy the items they WANT so instead they buy their core items 2000 gold sooner.

so support damage goes up...

ADC items got crazy buffed a while back and even though they are now im line with how they were in season 5... that is NOTHING compared to what the other classes still have.

assassins used to be a class that would bring down low hp targets, not 100/0 people

the term "100/0" and "one shot" was a JOKE used to describe was was obscenely OP it wasn't something u could actually DO unless u were fed behind belief and like 5 levels ahead.

adc or "marksmen" were designed to do sustained damage in the teamfights after everyone else had all thier cooldowns blown.. while bruisers did the same thing in melee range with more tankiness and forms of CC , while tanks would get in your face, not deal damage but keep you CC locked

burst > sustained > tank > burst

that is what league WAS.

but now EVERY CLASS does BURST

EVERY mage is now a burst mage.

becuase if u cant 100/0 them.. before they 100/0 ... you die...

the fact that even NEEDED to add items like item 3193

should have been a sign of the end-times..

if tanks need that to survive.. something is WRONG.

defense items havent gotten "worse" they have just gotten less defensive and more OFFENSIVE

and they lose some defensive starts each time they gain offensive ones to keep them balanced.

and sure there are some "pure defense" item left. but what do they do honestly?

sure your upgrading your house from cardboard to brick, fantastic....

and yeah that was great when everyone had axes and swords

now damage is like damage is like "ok i just blew up the sun" have fun with that brick house you still got there.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

The post is saying that the damage has actually always been there, but with new things added without the reinforcement of defensive items that have been repeatedly nerfed that it will feel like damage is actually more then what it used to be. Which in reality is right, People can and will argue that prior to keystones that damage wasn't as high and that's simply not right, it's just back then we had stronger defensive items.

Riot went for years of only nerfing damage, and then defensive items, and then created Keystones which added damage thus basically nullifying the prior damage nerfs without buffing the defensive items back up. So while Damage Creep does feel real, it's essentially the same now that it has been for awhile, there just isn't any strong defensive items any longer because they're been trying to give tanks they're own defensive steroids.

Take Mages with Zhonyas and the old Abby Scepter, both gave more armor and MR then they do now (well Banshees now instead of Scepter), Zhonyas gives less AP and Banshees gives slightly more. Ryalis and RoA both had there HP nerfed by 100 as well.

When we complain about Mobility creep, it's a legit thing because most new champion have mobility, where as old ones really don't. Damage though in S2-4 was still there and it still hurt but we had defensive items that could block some of it out. Power creep on the other hand is just a byproduct of a lot of buffs/nerfs over the years and could easily be fixed by buffing some defensive items. Nerfing some truly high end damage spells, items, and keystones.

I posted this on a different topic to someone else but it kind of fits into your comment here. Damage has always been in League, we just had quality defensive items to slow it down. Those are gone, Zed, LB, Talon, Fizz have always been able to straight one shot someone at pretty much most parts of League's history. Veigar, Syndra, Riven, Wukong, Ahri, Brand, Lux, etc have all had raw burst patterns to 100-0 a squishy, just as they do now.

Damage feels hefty because we have no good options against it and I covered the Keystone addition in the above quote.

defense items havent gotten "worse" they have just gotten less defensive and more OFFENSIVE

Uh what? Randiuns, Sunfire, Spirit Visage, have all been straight nerfed and that includes the Sunefire aura. Even Frozen Heart was nerfed for a bit. Thornmail lost most of it's offensive prowess as well.

People like to complain about the current iteration of Anivia but she was far stronger before and hit far harder then she does now, just more often.

LB actually lost damage from her old S6 self. Akali lost a lot of power as well in that same patch, shit her shroud used to give flat MR and Armor to her. Syndra's early game is abysmal in comparison to her old self, she used to be a straight lane bully.

those are just some champions from my pool that I've noticed losing damage during the Riot nerf everything days. Lately they've gone the other route but most of these damage buffs are simply reverts to nerfs that champions had gotten before.

Tormentula1 votes

What?

Defensive items never get buffed offensively...

They keep changing defensive item build paths and increasing their gold values because typically, tanks would get unkillable really fast in lane phase, causing uninteractive experiences. Remember when ice borne gauntlet was a tank item? Glad they buffed that thing's damage, oh wait they didn't and tanks that built it would gutted (ekko, fizz, poppy).

Nobody builds fucking item 3143 anymore because its contested with item 3110 and item 3075's item 3082 passives. Three tank items share the same effect, that's why there's little diversity cause obviously one of these is going to outshine the others in particular situations, and randuin's didn't really help as much as it used to when ADC was becoming more bursty, which we recently toned down. With ninja tabi, randuin's, thornmail/heart, you really make marksmen unplayable.

When we added item 3193 it was because we wanted more generalist defensive options since a majority of defensive items were only built for specific counter reasons (crit, AP, blah blah) and the ones they utilized both stats may not have been good rushes to begin with (like GA, ZZ-rot, etc). How is needing this the sign of end times?

EVERY mage is now a burst mage.

Ahri: if you consider this a mage, she always 100-0'd people when ahead and traded really well. Anivia: she always just Q-E'd you for half your health, I can tell you now before TLD and electro/comet she did that because I played that bullshit. Annie: Burst mage. AurelionSol: DPS mage and still is one, I haven't really seen an aurelion sol 100-0 me that didn't have 10 dark seal stacks to justify it and he doesn't take any burst runes or masteries. Cassiopeia: Was and still is a DPS mage. Elise: If you want to talk about the mage part of this mage/fighter, she always did a fuck ton of burst damage, almost borderlining an assassin with, back in the old days of season 3, being perma banned for being way too good of a skirmisher and lane bully. Fiddlesticks: Still DPS, although he can do a lot of damage recently. Galio: AP galio always flash killed everybody. New galio that goes tank does quite a bit though but I wouldn't call tank galio burst. Karma: She poked hard but never burst somebody 100-0 unless really fed. Karthus: lol Kennen: Whatever you look at him as, he all-in 100-0s all the time when AP. Leblanc: Old LB one shot, newer old LB one shot (post silence), newer newer LB one shot, assassin update LB one shot, and reverted LB one shot but this time with actually less damage then the previous incarnation before the rework. Lissandra: When she's meta she 100-0's when ahead, and I'd say she still 100-0s you when even. I haven't seen lissandra meta in a while but I've seen lissandras lately and they do a fuck ton and I remember when I joined and we had high elo replays I watched one just shit on everybody. Lux: burst mage Malzahar: 100-0'd via DPS, got reworked and 100-0'd through DPS but needed voidlings, and got another set of changes to result in the same thing. If anything he lost damage, he just gained more stuff in his kit to compensate and make him broken like his free spell shield and way too many voidlings. Morgana: Not much really changed for her, she's still able to 1v1 people like she did in the day, she needs items to pull it off and I can't say that wasn't the case back then. Orianna: Always did a lot of burst when ahead. We haven't even seen her in awhile since RR. Rumble: Still DPS mage, that atm does do a bit too much DPS but not necessarily cause of runes, he doesn';t even have deathfire touch anymore, just scorch with a CD. Sona: Was always known as the bronze low elo cheeser that outdamaged her team, but fails to do that in high ratings, and to this day that still remains. If anything she was better back then. Swain: I'll give you this one. Taliyah: Maybe this one too but she wasn't around back then. Teemo: Veigar: Velkoz: Always did a lot of damage and was able to 100-0 somebody with his combo+ult. Viktor: eh tbh I don't remember hay day viktor, he was bursty in recent seasons tho, definitely not being played much in RR with "all that added dmg!!!" Vladimir: You can have this one too. Xerath: What's changed. Zoe: Burst mage Zyra: Its zyra, she's done this shit for centuries. Its why they struggle to make her healthy when meta, and why she struggles when she's not, because she always has to be feast or famine off kills. They tried removing her true damage passive and she still manages to 100-0 people like in the past and turn fights around.

The only change I really hated was item 3026, because it removed a lot of playstyles for some champs (AP have no replacements, AP divers can't exist as divers else they instantly die and achieve nothing, it gives AD an advantage when snowballing and it doesn't punish them through compensation, IE giving them AD rather then sacrificing another damage slot). That was a sign of end times, but thats what happens when players complain about LCS games dragging too long and their matches last too long, and when they get a taste of early game, then they whine why its over so fast.

Linna Excel1 votes

Do we want to risk a tank meta to come back though?

I mean if we buff defensive items, then clearly tanks will be the winners.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2zd8q2ws,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-07-11T23:16:28.503+0000)

Do we want to risk a tank meta to come back though?

I mean if we buff defensive items, then clearly tanks will be the winners.

Why can’t we have a world where both are equally viable? Once upon a time, tanks and bruisers dominated mid game and ADCs dominated late. But you were left with a feasible time frame to capitalize off of those windows. Not to mention, even if you got to a point as a tank where you feel off, you still remained mostly durable but you simply got outscaled. That didn’t make your job impossible, just harder and less effective. That seemed to be a happy median in my eyes.

MrHaZeYo4 votes

I mean if you build a MR item most tanks won't do much to you lol.

Automated Riven1 votes

Unless they all have percent max hp damage. Which they do.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Even still, that's usually one ability that has a CD and you can then work around that.

Automated Riven1 votes

That's fixable tho. The only time rank metas have ever existed was when tanks damage was out of control (rip poppy 1shots) but they have only ever been 'just good' when they were only tanky.

My solution, nerf the damage, buff the tankyness.

five oh tree 1 votes

It's never been about damage creep. it's always, ALWAYS been about mobility creep and CC creep. They are in constant competition. Then riot buffed defense (way, way back in like season 4/5) to keep up with those things, and when everyone hated the unending teamfights, they gradually began increasing damage. They didn't just keep increasing it though, they just shifted it around in the game. Same with defense. It moved into item actives instead of stats-- into keystones effects instead of flat stat trees.

With the class updates, new mechanics and items have been added. No champion has really gotten more damage; rather, the item actives and extremely synergistic runes have pushed them over the edge. Damage and defense has been shifted around over and over. The assassin update lowered burst damage, but the consistent lethality item buffs and gradual assassin buffs that filtered in over months has pushed them to a strong point. The only reason they had to be buffed, however, was CC creep. Everyone has slows, everyone has displacements, etc. There's a larger amount of items that give slows than there used to be. item 3146 item 3800 It doesn't matter if your kits lack CC; you can purchase it. Only protobelt gives any kind of non-slow mobility, so to keep up with the item CC creep, champions are generally receiving more mobility, such as our latest juggernaut Aatrox getting 2 dashes (even if they're small).

Keystones have introduced CC/Damage/defense/utility into champion kits that are specifically balanced around the lack thereof. They've also pushed the strong points of certain champions' kits over the edge. As I mentioned earlier, a bit of the game's damage and defense was pushed into these.

Let's take Bard for example: he's always had high base damages and decent scaling damage. However, with electrocute's high base damage, the summoner 14 buff, and his overall ease at proc'ing electrocute (q/aa/meep) he may seem overly burst-y. It enhances his short trade/poke damage and synergizes extremely well with him. This works well because he has no extreme weaknesses that he is balanced around and is forced to cover up with a different keystone.

Mordekaiser is- and correct me if I'm wrong here- essentially balanced around phase rush at this point (plus an honorary mention to item 3152 making him fairly good at proc'ing it from range). the massive slow resistance and speed boost puts a bandaid on the weakness of his kit, but he's not overpowered. Why? Because everyone has access to excessive amounts of CC and mobility. Even without his old glaring weakness being so prominent, he gives up the option of pushing his strengths to the peak, like bard does, for example.

If you've played for a while, you know assassins have always destroyed you, often times from stealth. A great example is old, old rengar killing you in .01 secs. Marksman, generally, have always shredded tanks, though over the years they've added more and more non-marksman that shred tanks as well. I would say that tanks aren't quite as meta as they used to be, which is the reason assassins seem overbearing; their counter-class is suffering. It's not that "damage is too high," as HateDaddy said, it's "tanks (and, imo, some enchanters) are mediocre."

Reeling this back to my point, though, Assassins needed their burst damage at this level because of the excessive amounts of CC. When the 2 classes with the best peeling CC are mediocre, they're going to shine and seem oppressive. This CC keeps getting added to deal with mobility that is necessary to keep up with CC and avoid damage. It's all just a cycle.

There's more factors too, such as better vision denial now, but I've already assaulted this post with excessive broadness of topic, so I won't dig into that can of worms.

League is becoming more about capitalizing on strengths and avoiding your zones of weakness, but having prominent windows of both. I personally don't mind it.

TL;DR: CC creep and mobility creep are the real issues.

remakoro4 votes

who the fuck hated undending teamfights? That was the greatest shit ever. When i could ult TWICE during teamfight as Leona. When you had to stay alert for long long time and fight could shift its place all over the map. Damn that was GOOOD.

RPGZexion4 votes

[deleted]

remakoro2 votes

i started playing in season 4 and i know exactly how every season went.

If i wanted bullshit that we have atm i would be playing dota where PA jump at you and finishes you in 1 strike.

IainG101 votes

I'd love to go back to 40 minute games: if I wanted a casual pub-stomp I'd go back to mostly playing ARAM. I am on my own PC, in my own home, I do not need the game to be over fast. I want to think tactically, I want to have to work for my victory, I want the opportunity to sway the game back into my team's favour. What I do not want is a snowball-centric one-punch dunk-fest where ping and stat-check reign supreme, and a single mistake before 10 minutes can scupper the game. I hate this current 'We gave first blood/scuttle/tower/drake, better just ff and go on to the next one' mindset that has infected most of the playerbase.

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