Will the Assassin update tackle the "stealth problem"?

Quepha·Jun 29, 2016·4 votes·907 views

The list of possible candidates for the Assassin update include Akali, Evelynn, Kha'zix, Rengar, Shaco, and Talon, that makes for six possible candidates that include stealth as an important mechanic of their kits, and stealth has historically been considered a mechanic that players find extremely frustrating.

What are the issues with stealth that cause players to feel unsatisfied when playing against it? What can be done about stealth to make players feel better about the options available to play against stealth champions?

17 Comments

PupelJun 29, 20161 votes

players only feel like stealth is frustrating on characters that use it to gapclose no one has a issue with stealth on the champions who use it to escape.

CubíxJun 30, 20162 votes

On the contrary I find it a lot more frustrating when someone like shaco or twitch or even talon turn invis and dip-set the fight, to be fair these champs stealth aren't balanced compared to some other champions like rengar or evelynn

67chromeJun 29, 20161 votes

What are the issues with stealth that cause players to feel unsatisfied when playing against it?

It's black and white, yes or no.

There's no modularity associated with stealth and essentially no halfway there mechanics, which is really off putting given the interactions of a wide range of stats and mechanics. For instance: HP, armor, MR, and HP/5 allow a champion to survive a little longer: they don't make a champion immune to all damage. AD, AS, and AP allow a champion to do a little more damage: they don't allow a champion to instantly OHKO any opponent. With high enough values in defense or offense you can become unkillable or OHKO opponents, but there's a lot of middle ground. Same general deal with dynamics like mobility and range. You can outrange opponents 0% to 100% of the time based on your skill at maintaining distance, you can dodge skillshots and stick ontop of opponents 0% to 100% of the time based on skill with using mobility.

With stealth: there's really not that interaction. Champions in stealth are completely invisible, silent, oaderless, and leave no tracks or trace of their existence. They're also untargetablle against all point-click abilities and auto-attacks in the game. Or they walk over a Pink Ward or within Red Trinket and they aren't. Which sucks for everyone that isn't stealthing big time, or it sucks big time for the unit relying on stealth.

There's no interaction with camouflage where they're difficult but not impossible to see. There's no interactions like Spy's in Team Fortress where they're sneaky but not impossible to be suspicious of and find out. There's no interaction like the viewing cone of foes in Metal Gear Solid can reveal you waltzing around in broad daylight with no cover. There's no interaction where making a lot of noise alerts foes to your presence, standing in lit areas makes stealth less useful, or standing right in front of them ends stealth like it does in Skyrim or most D&D games.

Stealth just works like it does in the RTS game Warcraft III, where flying units always beat melee ground units, siege weapons always beat towers, and workers get obliterated by combat units. RTS games allow for brutal interactions between units because players have an entire army at their disposal. Because they have an army, massive power swings also serve to make each unit have greater tactical importance, and because armies are being controlled micro-managing tiny interactions generally detracts from gameplay more than it adds to it in such a large scale.

The same is not true for a MOBA, as it's an entirely different beast.

What can be done about stealth to make players feel better about the options available to play against stealth champions?

Add a shimmer effect, make Stealth cause a unit to be 99% invisible rather than 100% and loos transparancy when they get closer, have stealth as-is tied to abilities that actually offer a lot of interaction or treat stealth for offering untargetability (Akali's shroud and Vayne's ult stealth are both reasonable examples here).

For stuff like the long-lasting stealth of Rengar, Shaco, and Twitch how stealth is mechanically represented in LoL should be entirely re-coded though. As-is the LoL representation of stealth mechanics is pretty flawed and at odds with the general MOBA experience.

QuephaJun 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Add a shimmer effect, make Stealth cause a unit to be 99% invisible rather than 100% and loos transparancy when they get closer, have stealth as-is tied to abilities that actually offer a lot of interaction or treat stealth for offering untargetability (Akali's shroud and Vayne's ult stealth are both reasonable examples here).

I hate this mechanic. I hate it in every game it's used in because the shimmer effect is basically 0% visibility against bad players and 100% visibility against good players. It goes completely against the fantasy of stealth which is "I have out-thought my opponent, they don't realize I am here" because what it does 100% of the time is inform the opponent that you are nearby even if it doesn't tell them exactly where you are.

It also opens up the possibility of very difficult-to-detect third party programs that highlight the shimmer effect to determine the location of the enemy. Being a purely visual mod it can be made to be very difficult to detect despite providing an incredibly real advantage that completely invalidates stealth.

67chromeJun 30, 20161 votes

I have out-thought my opponent, they don't realize I am here&quot

Fullfilling that fantasy with 100% invisibility is kind of BS ATM though. It's like Caitlyn's Ace-in-the-Hole making you feel like you have exceptional aim. That skill does not. It makes Caitlyn feel like she has exceptional aim, but it doesn't really do anything on that front for the player. Same deal with stealth champions ATM with how stealth works.

If you really want to feel sneaky in LoL it's also possible ATM to utilize brush and fog-of-war on any champion to actually be sneaky and out-smart your opponents with good map movements, tracking skills, and hunting capabilities. Metal-gearing it up.

it also opens up the possibility of very difficult-to-detect third party programs that highlight the shimmer effect to determine the location of the enemy.

Well that sucks.

ATM a lot of stealth just feels like a 7000 range point-click gap-closer for sneak attacks though. There should be some middle ground it can fit in.

ErockandrollJun 30, 20161 votes

It's not that black and white. While stealth is something that is either on or off. We can control when and how champions use it. And if Stealth is tied to an ability, then it scales with CDR.

Eve is probably the most problemed champ when it comes to stealth, simply because her Stealth is pretty much always on. Which means there's no real work around for that except for pink wards. But most of the time, you can't afford to defend your pinks.

Rengar is probably the seconded most problem champ since his engage granted by his stealth is too reliable. (Don't know about talon, I don't play him really)

Personally, the best way to make use of the stealth mechanic, is in short windowed moments, allowing the assassin a window of opertunity, but to an extent leaving their opponent some ability to predict what they might do. I guess for example Kha'zix ult, only lasts a few seconds at a time, but it gives him the ability to Juke his opponents, But their are only so many places he can go. Akali's W works, only in a given AoE, Which limits it's effectiveness.

You just got to look for the more interesting uses of stealth mechanics, and find ways to window their power.

67chromeJun 30, 20161 votes

It's not that black and white. While stealth is something that is either on or off. We can control when and how champions use it.

Which "we" are you talking about?

Riot can control when and how a stealth champion is capable of using stealth and so can a player using a stealth champion, that much is true. But hardly anyone playing against a stealth champion has much power in how or when stealth is used, and playing against it has very lacking means of counterplay in most instances. Amazing foresight with wards or being a tanky mo'fo with Red Trinket is pretty much it, and even then: champions like Rengar and Twitch with gap-closers or range don't really care they're revealed 0.01 seconds before they launch their sneak-attack.

Eve is probably the most problemed champ when it comes to stealth, simply because her Stealth is pretty much always on.

I'm not so sure about that, Eve's close-range reveal mechanic actually forces her to think about being sneaky, and her stealth is more about information denial with warding than it is a supersize buttsex or panic-button escape kind of deal.

There's a lot more control her opponents have over it than a lot of other stealth dynamics, and it generally feels more like stealth.

That said: could be because the rest of Eve's kit is kind of awkward and counter-intuitive, lacking a lot of tools to really synergize with and capitalize on her stealth.

Rengar is probably the seconded most problem champ since his engage granted by his stealth is too reliable. (Don't know about talon, I don't play him really)

I'd probably rate Rengar as more of the biggest problem champion with stealth. ! is neat but comes up to late. ! changing in size and color or heartbeats increasing in volume could actually be a cool dynamic to add to stealth, make Rengar's ult more like Vi's where at least you know it's comming and you can potentially position yourself in a place that screws it up for your opponent. When Vi's ult is a good example of where to move forward for more counterplay though... X(

Talon's issue with stealth is more of a Playful/Trickster kind of deal at the end of his combo. He jumps in, unloads his combo, then becomes unteragetable against point-click mechanics when he peaces out while denying vision against skill-shots to retaliate. Paired with his long-removed silence it was pretty oppressive as the only thing that could be done vs. his combo was move around pathetically, as it also slows and silence used to disable item actives and all summoner spells. ATM it's a little more frustrating and irritating to deal with than it is strong though, as a lot of item actives, summoners, and abilities can be used before his blades return to Talon for the final hit.

Personally, the best way to make use of the stealth mechanic, is in short windowed moments, allowing the assassin a window of opertunity, but to an extent leaving their opponent some ability to predict what they might do.

I don't really agree there.

Short windows like Vayne's Final Hour are cool for 1-2 champions, but that's ultimatly a Playful/Trickster, Alpha-Strike, Sanguine Pool, Riposte, Counterstrike, Wind-Wall, Divine Intervention, Valor, Spell Shield, or such a variant of short-lived defensive tools with 100% block potential against half or more of the damage methods in the game. In the case of stealth point-click.

There's already so many variants of that mechanic I don't see stealth being limited to such as a great move gameplay-wise.

Aesthetically it's also a pretty awful place to take stealth IMO. Stealth generally promises a fantasy of...well, feeling like you're Snake in Metal Gear Solid. Or at the very least a Thief in Skyrim. Clever, sneaky, methodical, observant, cautious, and skilled at navigating combat.

Aesthetically stealth doesn't promise just...blocking over and over again when everyone is looking at you.

I guess for example Kha'zix ult, only lasts a few seconds at a time, but it gives him the ability to Juke his opponents,

Being able to turn invisible when everyone is watching him is full derp IMO, which is mostly when Kha'Zix uses that to juke opponents. Sneaking in with a short burst isn't thematically terrible, but peacing out when everyone is well aware of his pressnce is kind of...WTF. Stealth doesn't work that way IRL. If everyone knows you're there, a lot of arrows and bullets will be directed there.

You just got to look for the more interesting uses of stealth mechanics, and find ways to window their power.

Not all stealth is bad with the right mechanics, that's true enough.

But keeping stealth in the same "untargetable vs. point-click" dynamic it is now would require massive overhauls to certain aspects of a lot of champion's kits that use stealth in such a way that feels proper for their kit. If stealth as a mechanic is intended to make a champion feel more like a Ninja and less like a fighter throwing down a wind-wall, the core mechanics and interactions with stealth need to change at a fundamental level.

HyperiönJun 30, 20161 votes

You have Pink wards, Sweeper, and Oracles Lens, what else do you want to keep you safe from us assassin players. We are already basically useless late game. Why do you want it made easier for you because you don't prioritize right?

QuephaJun 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You have Pink wards, Sweeper, and Oracles Lens, what else do you want to keep you safe from us assassin players. We are already basically useless late game. Why do you want it made easier for you because you don't prioritize right?

pink wards cost gold, an item slot, and map vision because you could have put that ward somewhere else. trinket also costs a ton of vision control. Basically, to spot this one champion sometimes if the cooldown is up, you have to give up the ability to spot any enemy champions anywhere else on the map.

HyperiönJun 30, 20161 votes

Sweeping and Oracles cost vision control? Please... If no one on your team bought sweepers/oracles, then the enemy would have free wards all game long in your jungle and nothing to stop it. Wards are what, 75 gold? thats 4 minions... If you can't sacrifice 75 gold every couple minutes because you are too worried about your KDA, then feel free to keep dieing to us assassins. Wards are essential to your life. even if you have to toss it down in a spot you don't want. You can go buy another ward then you kill the enemy.

QuephaJun 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sweeping and Oracles cost vision control? Please... If no one on your team bought sweepers/oracles, then the enemy would have free wards all game long in your jungle and nothing to stop it. Wards are what, 75 gold? thats 4 minions... If you can't sacrifice 75 gold every couple minutes because you are too worried about your KDA, then feel free to keep dieing to us assassins. Wards are essential to your life. even if you have to toss it down in a spot you don't want. You can go buy another ward then you kill the enemy.

If you're using your trinket to clear wards, then how is it off cooldown when the stealth champion shows up?

I didn't say it wasn't worth it to do those things, I'm saying that it sucks. It's not fun to buy more consumables and then use them when most of the time they just whiff. It's not fun to hold off on buying an item and be down on combat stats because you're out of item slots. Players forget to do it, they don't like doing it, and when they remember to do it and it pays off it still doesn't feel that rewarding.

HyperiönJun 30, 20161 votes

Oracles is a 75 Second CD - - There isn't that much fighting going on that you couldn't spare it for that short duration

5050BSJun 30, 20161 votes

Shaco is cancer. His movement speed while stealthed is so great you can spot him in the jungle near blue or red and in 2s he is ganking you in lane it seems. His "rotation" is also stupid OP and THEN and THEN his clone........

I see the enemy jungler is Shaco and I know the game is going to have a good chance to put me on tilt. NOT for a good game.

TequilaZombieJul 5, 20161 votes

His movement speed is not increased while he's on stealth. All he has is a gap closer of 400 units. At most he will be jumping over a wall, but it's no different from a Trynd, Ekko, Lee or any other champion that can jumo over walls.

DrugsForRobotsJul 1, 20161 votes

u/67Chrome hits on it.

Once a champion has 'stealthed' there is very little telegraphing or particle effects that give enemies a hint as to their location, which is exactly what we need.

If each instance of stealth came with it's own unique quirks, unique audio and visual clues - tell-tale signs - that players could look for, it would be less oppressive provided you're alert and aware. Most people get hung up on the 'shimmer' effect, but Riot shouldn't be constrained by that design. The 'shimmer' effect could be unique to one such instance of stealth (maybe Kha?), but other champs could have different tells.

Shaco already has his puff of smoke and a distinct laugh when he disappears, maybe the same laugh could be heard again if he's within X units? Evelynn has her 'detection radius' but oddly no sounds accompany her. Imagine how cool it would be to hear 'night whispers' or whatever. Rengar has his ! icon, but also a very distinct sound when he's within range of you. More stuff like this needs to happen.

Ghostly footprints, an occasional 'ripple', spooky silhouettes (like what red trinket does), etc. Some champs could even have their stealth telegraph their position .5s before it wears out, so as to give the enemy at least some indication. There are tons of possibilities and Riot has smart, creative people. I expect to see tell-tale signs everywhere. :)

Great OzymandiusJul 5, 20161 votes

I think shaco is actually a fairly well-balanced assassin.

Akali's stealth is problematic because it is so strong when enemies don't have pink wards and is utterly useless when enemies do buy pink wards. Effectively, Akali is balanced around not having stealth in late game, which means she has to have tons of damage and mobility. Champions that rely purely on damage to be balanced are extremely difficult to balance, tend to be pub-stompers, and are generally unhealthy for the game. Akali's stealth needs to be buffed somehow so her damage, and especially her base damage, can be nerfed.

Here are some changes to Akali that I think would turn her into a more interesting champion, allowing for more counterplay, requiring more skill, and being easier to balance:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/A5uRzwK7-akali-assassin-update-recommendation

x R U K A xJul 21, 20161 votes

I feel like the stealth mechanic should work like Evelynn's passive which is in my opinion a perfectly balanced example of stealth. You're 100% invisible if you stay out of range, as you get close the enemy gets a warning telling them you're near and once you get closer you become completely visible to the enemy. In this way you still get the upper hand because you're stealthed but the enemy has at least a chance to fight back before they're effortlessly slaughtered. Rengar's and Twitch's stealth mechanics are the most broken in my opinion because they're completely invisible until they attack and with Rengar the warning is way to late because by the time it pops up he's already lunged at you and bursted down like half your health. Everybody's stealth, except Akali's for obvious reasons, should work like Evelynn's. At least with Evelynn's if you manage to land a hit on them while they're are stealthed they become visible again.

Besides that I feel like Rengar definitely needs some work. I mean do you know how annoying it is when you have him at less than half health than he runs into the bush only to jump you and one shot you? Not to mention with Ferocity he has the ability to ROOT you so which is stupid broken for an assassin champion. As a side note his Q can literally, LITERALLY, one shot any champion who's even slightly squishy.

The only thing left I have to say is that with Akali and Evelynn they're just soooo boring to play as. With Akali it's just wait till you have 3 charges than ult down the enemy laner and with Evelynn all you do is ult to initiate than spam your Q, I like the way her Q works just wish there was more to it. Just give them the same treatment you gave Ryze and Taric to make them more fun to play as. Evelynn needs a rework way more than anybody else in my opinion, she's the only assassin champion who doesn't have a jump or dash of any sort. All she has is an ability that increases movement speed which isn't that helpful since as an assassin you're already building mobility items.