So, does Riot not want melee champions to be able to lane vs ranged champions anymore?

FalconPawwwwnch·Nov 1, 2015·65 votes·33,485 views

With,

the nerfs to TP coming the MASSIVE base AD buffs to ranged ADs the inability to do a camp for level 2 on PBE now

How does Riot expect melee champs to be able to deal with ranged champions in lane now? Cheese like Quinn and Vayne were already unbearable in solo lanes even with TP, now there's no hope of dealing with them unless Riot massive buffs Doran's shield with a ranged AA specifically passive (yea right)

140 Comments

FeathermaneNov 1, 201532 votes

The jungle level 2 and tp ARE the cheese.

LlaniteNov 1, 20154 votes

Grammar nazi: should be 'IS' since they are parts of a combo.

That Murphys LawNov 1, 20159 votes

Should be 'are' because this and that are plural.

AbyssphereNov 1, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Murphys Law,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-11-01T23:11:21.713+0000)

Should be 'are' because this and that are plural.

No, you're wrong. Feathermane's post was poorly written, which made it look like he was talking about plurals, but he wasn't. What he meant to say was "the jungle level 2 and tp STRATEGY" is cheesy. And "strategy" is a singular noun, so "is".

That Murphys LawNov 2, 201510 votes

Except the singular word strategy didn't come up until your comment. As originally written the sentence is correct to use are, and with your addition it is correct to use is.

AbyssphereNov 2, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Murphys Law,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-02T01:07:54.707+0000)

Except the singular word strategy didn't come up until your comment. As originally written the sentence is correct to use are, and with your addition it is correct to use is.

Eh, honestly I think it was too harsh to say "are" was flat out incorrect - reading it more, I think that's acceptable. But I think "is" is just as acceptable in that sentence. It all depends on whether he's treating "level 2 jg and tp" as two separate actions or one action.

That Murphys LawNov 2, 20157 votes

Now who is the one downvoting us in this most CIVILIZED discussion of the intricacies of failing at grammar.

Mallory330Nov 2, 201511 votes

i like cheese

AstrogolemNov 3, 20151 votes

YOU GET AN UPVOTE AND YOU GET AN UPVOTE!

Mallory330Nov 3, 20153 votes

lol why did people even upvote that exdee kap pap

PDE5 InhibitorsNov 3, 20152 votes

I'm upvoting you, but downvoting him because he is wrong lol (please don't yell at me if my grammar is wrong here).

RiotRiot ReinboomNov 3, 201525 votes

First up, Base AD: The base AD changes are a slight power curve shift (note: there's an eventual base AD loss). These were mostly done because last hitting felt bad due to the change in masteries (loss of flat AD). This was felt most by ranged AD characters. 5 AD is potentially too much but it's a starting point. Marksman AD can be dropped further from there.

Second up, and much more applicable: Isolating some changes without calling out the other systemic changes on big patches such as these is very misleading. For example, this topic does not mention that we changed "call for help" at all in favor of melee in lanes. There's now a second response ring wrapped centered on the attacker that causes your minions to actually respond (notably to ranged attackers) when they've shoved you off minions hard.

RozzetaNov 3, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-11-03T00:27:01.246+0000)

Second up, and much more applicable: Isolating some changes without calling out the other systemic changes on big patches such as these is very misleading. For example, this topic does not mention that we changed "call for help" at all in favor of melee in lanes. There's now a second response ring wrapped centered on the attacker that causes your minions to actually respond (notably to ranged attackers) when they've shoved you off minions hard.

I don't quite understand what this means, and haven't seen any mention to it so far. Could you please elaborate? EDIT: If it means that ranged characters are more likely to attract minion aggro, does it also affect mages and supports attempting to poke?

RiotRiot ReinboomNov 3, 201527 votes

Sure.

What is Call for Help:

If a champion auto attacks another champion, then find all allied minions and turrets in a "large" ring centered on the champion being attacked. Those minions and turrets found in that ring then check if the attacking champion is within their auto attack range (+ a rather significant search area increase of 400 units if the responder is a minion).

Here's an example of the ring: http://i.imgur.com/MUiBUPW.jpg

That part isn't changing.

What's changing is that there is now a second ring.

In addition to searching for allied minions and turrets around the champion being attacked, there's a second search around the champions that's attacking. This search is the same size, but only affects minions (not turrets). Minions responding to the second ring don't search beyond their attack radius though. They respond only if they could naturally attack the attacker.

This looks like:

http://i.imgur.com/7OSaRQY.jpg

(red is the current ring, blue is the new secondary ring)

Also in the prior image, you'll notice the ranged minions have aggro'd on Caitlyn. This would not have happened in the current game because those minions are outside the red ring.

RozzetaNov 3, 20158 votes

Thanks!

From testing so far, would you say this might limit the early game aggression from mid lane or champions relying more on their poke than their farm? I'm asking this mostly with poke supports in mind (Sona, Lulu, Nami)

RiotRiot ReinboomNov 3, 201513 votes

It shouldn't limit mid lane too much, simply because of the length of the lane is too short.

Also mind that Call for Help explicitly only responds to basic attacks. Spells do not trigger it.

In my testing, Annie was impacted a bit (thanks to her rather long auto attack range, as well as it being okay enough early to use). Anivia and Zyra may also be impacted in the same way. I tend to play defensively on Anivia early so I didn't feel it on her (your mileage might vary).

For supports, if you're actively zoning your opponents out of lane it will impact you.

RozzetaNov 3, 20157 votes

Again, thanks a lot for your response.

XonraNov 3, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=00140000000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-03T01:47:51.222+0000)

For supports, if you're actively zoning your opponents out of lane it will impact you.

That's a bit frustrating, as the last thing you want to do is start taking added minion aggro. This is going to cause people to play that much more passive, especially since most supports are pretty squishy, and those minions hurt early on.

I guess might as well give further reasons to not play Sona as she is gonna get punished further for poking now on top of just being Sona :P

RenascentNov 3, 20153 votes

Never seen a Sona take much minion aggro from poking on live. Why? She uses the bushes. I doubt the new minion aggro system will change the effectiveness of the bush tactic.

Zair UmbrasNov 3, 20152 votes

Zyra feels it only because you gotta AA the champs to keep the plants on the enemy sometimes. With the new Deathfire mastery proc'ing on plants... I can live with it.

PhanronNov 3, 20153 votes

As someone who likes playing ranged champions this sucks a lot. Did you change when minions stop focussing you? For example the cannon minion that just. won't. stop. hitting. you even though there are other allied minions around? Or how minions follow you past your ranged minion backline and not changing targets?

MealReadytoEatNov 3, 20152 votes

Oh sweet! I'm glad their are systematic changes around helping melee's vs ranged.

FalconPawwwwnchNov 3, 20154 votes

Well played, something new I learned

I still think 5 ad is way too high but I'll admit that is something I did not know

EviIGreenRangerNov 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-11-03T00:27:01.246+0000)

First up, Base AD: The base AD changes are a slight power curve shift (note: there's an eventual base AD loss). These were mostly done because last hitting felt bad due to the change in masteries (loss of flat AD). This was felt most by ranged AD characters. 5 AD is potentially too much but it's a starting point. Marksman AD can be dropped further from there.

What about the 5 AD nerf to Miss Fortune? Doesn't make sense why her base AD gets dropped by 5 when all the others are getting buffed 5.

Red RyuNov 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

What about the 5 AD nerf to Miss Fortune? Doesn't make sense why her base AD gets dropped by 5 when all the others are getting buffed 5.

She got a new passive is why.

GreymooreNov 3, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-11-03T00:27:01.246+0000)

First up, Base AD: The base AD changes are a slight power curve shift (note: there's an eventual base AD loss). These were mostly done because last hitting felt bad due to the change in masteries (loss of flat AD). This was felt most by ranged AD characters. 5 AD is potentially too much but it's a starting point. Marksman AD can be dropped further from there.

Second up, and much more applicable: Isolating some changes without calling out the other systemic changes on big patches such as these is very misleading. For example, this topic does not mention that we changed "call for help" at all in favor of melee in lanes. There's now a second response ring wrapped centered on the attacker that causes your minions to actually respond (notably to ranged attackers) when they've shoved you off minions hard.

Should Ap champions get compensation as well due to the loss of 6 AP with the removal of arcane mastery from the mastery tree?

RebonackNov 3, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Over Lord Kida,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=00140003,timestamp=2015-11-03T05:04:17.830+0000)

Should Ap champions get compensation as well due to the loss of 6 AP with the removal of arcane mastery from the mastery tree?

Like having an extra AoE nuke added to their burst rotation or getting additional burn damage on all their spells?

Zair UmbrasNov 3, 20152 votes

Despite what some might say, that 20% burn is fricken painful. 20% AP ratio added into a combo really hurts. x.x It's broken as hell on champs like Cass, Malz, Singed, Zyra, and others who do constant DPS. Keeps the passive going non-stop for 10% per 1.5s.

The Bíg TicketNov 1, 201515 votes

Riot doesn't want melee champs to be viable unless they can make flashy plays like Riven or Fiora.

Mr Broken WingsNov 1, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-01T18:35:10.846+0000)

Riot doesn't want melee champs to be viable unless they can make flashy plays like Riven or Fiora.

riven fuckin suckz right now, kthxbye.

The Bíg TicketNov 1, 201519 votes

She sucks so hard that she is picked in the Worlds Quarterfinals, Semifinals and Finals too if I remember correctly.

Mr Broken WingsNov 1, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-01T21:07:24.390+0000)

She sucks so hard that she is picked in the Worlds Quarterfinals, Semifinals and Finals too if I remember correctly.

And went 0-10 in one game, and fed in the others. Great that huni likes her, didnt make her a viable pick obviously. Hating on her is outdated, she fucking suckz, worlds showed it, statistics prove it. I dont even need to argue about that dude, just because the hate circlejerk is strong here for her and other similar snowbally champs which noobs cant handle doesnt make her good at all.

The Bíg TicketNov 1, 201522 votes

She was picked 10 times and won half of these games. So how does that show she sucks? Of course she is snowball dependant but she is totally viable, even at the highest levels of play, that is what worlds showed.

Malevolent MetalNov 2, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Buff Jax please,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-01T18:35:10.846+0000)

Riot doesn't want melee champs to be viable unless they can make flashy plays like Riven or Fiora.

Which is repulsive to even think about.

Akali is SO HOTNov 2, 20157 votes

Don't forget about our new friend ranged brusier assassin graves

ayNigerianPrinceNov 2, 20151 votes

Pick any juggernaut. Crisis averted. He's not really powerful at a range so he can't do much to you unless he gets close enough for you to fuck him up.

That shouldn't be the only answer, but pretty much your best bet against him.

Red RyuNov 1, 20154 votes

{quoted}

With,

the nerfs to TP coming the MASSIVE base AD buffs to ranged ADs the inability to do a camp for level 2 on PBE now

How does Riot expect melee champs to be able to deal with ranged champions in lane now? Cheese like Quinn and Vayne were already unbearable in solo lanes even with TP, now there's no hope of dealing with them unless Riot massive buffs Doran's shield with a ranged AA specifically passive (yea right)

TP nerfs needed to happen, it's game warping to the point it's almost needed on midlaners now.

AD buffs are fixes overall, we'll see how it goes.

Doing camps early is and always is a problem when laners can do it before going into lane. Remember when there was no gromp and both sides top and bot did Golems for an early level 2? Yeah that was a huge problem before and it was here as well.

SEKAINov 2, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Ryu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-01T20:41:28.829+0000)

TP nerfs needed to happen, it's game warping to the point it's almost needed on midlaners now.

Where is the Flash nerf then?

Oh nvm Riot has always been balancing the game with a clear bias.

Red RyuNov 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Where is the Flash nerf then?

Oh nvm Riot has always been balancing the game with a clear bias.

Flash is ingrained at this point, not much to be done there.

TP on the other hand is debatably much worse in terms of impact.

SEKAINov 2, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Ryu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-11-02T05:50:05.450+0000)

Flash is ingrained at this point, not much to be done there.

TP on the other hand is debatably much worse in terms of impact.

Well that's what preseason is for, to do drastic changes.

I mean they have revamped the map, revamped the entire jungle, revamped the entire class, global nerf/buff etc. Yet still no Flash nerf.

My Waifu VanillaNov 2, 20152 votes

Or the fact that it is so ingrained into the game that doing anything to it would have catastrophic effects. Nerfing it in any way would either A) still make it the best choice since the gap closer will almost always make it better than another option or B) nerfing it so much that people will all just take something else. Removing it would completely invalidate any champion without an inherent gap closer (Annie would be trash tier since she relies very heavily on it and almost any immobile mage such as TF would INSTANTLY lose to any sort of aggression on an assassins part since he would be physically incapable of escaping them).

Yes Flash is very strong BUT it is so used right now that it is DEEMED necessary. It would be very hard to have any sort of objective control if flash was removed from the game. Unless you have a gap closer not reliant on a target stealing Dragon on blue side would be almost impossible as a jungler (same with Baron on purple side).

SEKAINov 2, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2015-11-02T05:54:59.722+0000)

Or the fact that it is so ingrained into the game that doing anything to it would have catastrophic effects.

At least make it the next Recall or something, I am tired of seeing Flash every game and having me to pick it myself too only because I must.

Sinister AnubisNov 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

With,

the nerfs to TP coming the MASSIVE base AD buffs to ranged ADs the inability to do a camp for level 2 on PBE now

How does Riot expect melee champs to be able to deal with ranged champions in lane now? Cheese like Quinn and Vayne were already unbearable in solo lanes even with TP, now there's no hope of dealing with them unless Riot massive buffs Doran's shield with a ranged AA specifically passive (yea right)

I dont think melee champions should have any edge on a range champion thats just silly.

QuortNov 2, 201510 votes

Melee champions should not be completely invalidated because they're playing against a ranged opponent. Range is a huge advantage and Riot is seemingly making it more difficult to cope with that.

Silents429Nov 2, 20152 votes

Well yeah, You don't bring a knife to a gunfight, how the hell are they suppose to make fighters fare well against range without making the fighters overpowered?

Sinister AnubisNov 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Melee champions should not be completely invalidated because they're playing against a ranged opponent. Range is a huge advantage and Riot is seemingly making it more difficult to cope with that.

Thats my point range is ment to have a huge advantage but if all the melee champions have gap closers that dont make it easy for a range squishy champion to survive on. So yes i think melee should get owned by range champions i mean comon you think with the same build as a adc should be able to 100-0 them.... just a example

MatezoideNov 2, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Master Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2015-11-02T02:58:53.190+0000)

Thats my point range is ment to have a huge advantage but if all the melee champions have gap closers that dont make it easy for a range squishy champion to survive on. So yes i think melee should get owned by range champions i mean comon you think with the same build as a adc should be able to 100-0 them.... just a example

Meanwhile melee carries in Dota are perfectly capable of competing against ranged.

Why? Because unlike this game, being ranged has huge trade offs. Meanwhile in LoL melees get....slighty better base stats kek.

Range is one advantage, it shouldnt be all that matters. To say ranged should always beat melees is the laziest form of game design possible.

SzunrayNov 2, 20154 votes

Slightly better base stats? Melee champions and bruisers have some of THE most insane steroids and free stats in the game.

Take Miss Fortune. Her W active gives her 60% atk speed for 6 seconds, and (at Five Stacks), 30% of her ad is dealt as bonus magic Damage.

Now look at Olaf. His W gives him 80% attack speed, 21% lifesteal, and enhanced healing from all sources for the same amount of time. He also gets 1% atk speed per 1% missing health. He also gets 30 Bonus armor from his ult passive, and when he activates his ultimate he gets 80 AD and immunity to all CC for 6 seconds. And a 70% movement speed boost.

Tryndamere gets a free phantom dancers worth of Crit for attacking things. He also gets 25 free ad all the time, and up to 35 more ad based on missing health.

Darius gets 200 ad for stacking bleed on someone. he also gets 25% armor pen at all times.

So yeah, theres huge tradeoffs for picking a ranged champion. It's not flat across the board (like riot arbitrarily saying melees do 20% more damage to structures), but if you look, you'll see that melee champions are compensated.

QuortNov 2, 20153 votes

Then melee must have substantial strength when they're able to close the gap between them and a ranged champion. This is why I believe the Jugernauts are very solidly designed.

SEKAINov 2, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Master Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2sEFscfP,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-11-01T23:51:36.204+0000)

I dont think melee champions should have any edge on a range champion thats just silly.

So you're saying the meta should be 5 ranged vs 5 ranged because melee is just meant to be worse when compared to ranged characters? What sort of balance ideal is this?

True in real life that's kinda the case but remember this is a video game. Not to mention before the invention of guns and other modernised weapons, melee and ranged did coexist because they both have advantages and tradeoffs.