Dear "Mage mains"

PhantomGG·Feb 17, 2016·16 votes·1,152 views

Lux is bloody amazing Brand is still amazing Aniva is still amazing Viktor is one of the best champs in the game Twisted fate is still one of the best champs in the game Lissandra is God tier and a super contested pick in the lcs Lu Lu is still very OP when played correctly Oriana is still one of the best champs in the game Malzahar and Annie are amazing anti meta picks Syndra is finally meta again

Please tell me how mages suck

Do mages suck? Or are you simply a person trying to master a champion you suck at, so instead of admitting that you suck with said champion you have to go and say assassins and adcs are OP for you aren't smart enough to figure out how to play certain match ups?

57 Comments

SnugglePuggle94Feb 17, 201611 votes

Hey Phanatos,

Why don't you stop calling us out and saying "we suck"? Because If I'm not incorrect, that's a very mean thing to say. NO, we do not suck, and the same goes for our mages. Our items were heavily nerfed while AD got a huge buff to their armor pen, new assassin items to deal with, new tank/defensive items like Sterak's and an "awesome" (sarcastic) new Maw of Malmortilus among others. And what do we get? A 3200 Zhonya's that had it's AP nerfed from 100 to 80 and it's armor from 50 to 45, then was reverted to 100 AP and changed to 3500 gold. We had our 20% SpellVamp removed from Hextech and WoTA. Liandry's went to 3200 from 3000. Lich Bane to 3200 among other changes. Rabadon's increased to 3800 from 3500. Rod of Ages increased from 2700 to 3000, but one of the few that had it's AP raised. And multiple others that had costs increased. We had our AP taken out of Iceborn and Trinity Force, though mages don't usually take those. We have less options to get CDR and our mana pots were taken out. Some got mana regen compensation, but it still hasn't helped much at all because we have to sacrifice mana regen/damage to get a stupid, expensive defensive item that might not even save us in the first place.

So if you get my point, its our itemization that sucks. Not us. Not our mages. Sure, maybe some mages were set up to take a hit more than others but it still doesn't make us anymore happy.

LordGeovanniFeb 17, 20161 votes

dont try that shit you can only have 6 items at a time so no matter if you add 1 tank items if you deduct 10-40 armor from several items and 100 -200 hp here and there they ultimately ended up worse hell item 3105 vs item 3001 lets you take away from enemies twice as much as you can provide for allies

Hex the FenFenFeb 17, 20161 votes

This ^ much true, very accurate

TNHA BaritoneFeb 17, 20165 votes

Your spelling of amazing is amazeing

Mage Mains are complaining over Hexdrinker + Steraks on anyone makes them unburstable. Slap that on an Assassin, Juggernaut, or ADC and they're not going to die.

Lemme just delete my posts because if you say something that shouldn't confuse people, but it does, it's instantly downvoted b/c ppl can't read.

Rule 34Feb 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2qYlYihI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-02-17T05:38:40.315+0000)

Mage Mains are complaining over Hexdrinker + Steraks on anyone makes them unburstable. Slap that on an Assassin Juggernaut

What the fuck is an assassin juggernaut

TNHA BaritoneFeb 17, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Phoenix Kotori Feb 17, 20161 votes

Sorta of like how Karma is a zone, burst, control, wave clear, utility mage? Or how ori is an Assassin Control utility mage? :p

TNHA BaritoneFeb 17, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Phoenix Kotori Feb 17, 20162 votes

Juggernauts are by definition immobile, Vi and Fiora have mobility, there for you're using Juggernaut as a buzzword.

Rule 34Feb 17, 20162 votes

You made him delete his comments, you dirty assassin juggernaut main

TNHA BaritoneFeb 17, 20162 votes

Sometimes I forget why I put my opinion here if condescending people are gonna misinterpret it and distort it.

Faith BreakerFeb 17, 20162 votes

Yeah why share your opinion if everyone wont agree with it?

LordGeovanniFeb 17, 20161 votes

more juggurnauts have movility than not Garen Gnar Sion DrMundo Hecarim JarvanIV Nautilus

Billy VoHagenFeb 17, 20161 votes

Half of those aren't juggernauts.

AlwaysByMySideFeb 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

more juggurnauts have movility than not

Garen isn't very mobile, Gnar isn't a juggernaut, Sion isn't a juggernaut, Dr. Mundo is arguably a juggernaut but isn't that mobile, Hecarim isn't a juggernaut, J4 isn't a juggernaut, Nautilus isn't a juggernaut.

CrossetteFeb 17, 20161 votes

Garen is mobile.

Gnar might as well be a juggernaut.

Same with Sion, but he's slow anyways.

Mundo is mobile because of his ult's MS bonus.

Hecarim isn't a juggernaut, right.

J4 might as well be a juggernaut.

Nautilus is a fucking juggernaut that doesn't NEED to build damage to deal it.

I think the issue here is item 3009

AlwaysByMySideFeb 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Garen is mobile.

No he's not, you're 100% wrong on this point. Garen has a single MS boost on his Q that doesn't last very long. Compare to Zed, who has two blinks, Lee Sin who has two dashes, Master Yi has both a very powerful MS boost and a gap closer, Fiora who has a very low cooldown dash if she attacks on enemy with it, or Riven, who has multiple low CD dashes.

These champions are mobile. In general, champions who only get a MS boost are not mobile champions (Speedy Udyr is probably an exception). Garen is the most mobile juggernaut, but he's still very easily kited in team fights. Which is what defines juggernauts.

Gnar might as well be a juggernaut.

No, he's a tank. Too much utility, not enough damage. He does less damage than Mundo, who builds full tank.

Same with Sion, but he's slow anyways.

Read above, though late game he does even less damage than Gnar.

Mundo is mobile because of his ult's MS bonus.

His stickiness is probably what makes him not a juggernaut, but he still isn't particularly mobile.

Hecarim isn't a juggernaut, right.

J4 might as well be a juggernaut.

J4 has to build damage to do a lot of damage, and is way too mobile.

Nautilus is a fucking juggernaut that doesn't NEED to build damage to deal it.

A full tank Nautilus does a lot less damage than full tank Mundo. He is also a bit too mobile and way too sticky.

LordGeovanniFeb 17, 20161 votes

what is your definition of a Juggernaut cause mine is some one who does good damage while being made to take good damage also. its funny how champions have obvious speed boosts but some how they arent mobile like only dashes make you mobile when you can speed up and run past the guy who dashed.

AlwaysByMySideFeb 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

what is your definition of a Juggernaut cause mine is some one who does good damage while being made to take good damage also. its funny how champions have obvious speed boosts but some how they arent mobile like only dashes make you mobile when you can speed up and run past the guy who dashed.

They deal good damage and are tanky, but also have trouble actually reaching the carry in a team fight. Garen fits this. Darius fits this definition more-so, as does Illaoi.

Dashes and blinks are superior forms of mobility because they aren't crippled by slows. You can't halt the advance of a Zed with a Jinx W like you can a Garen, and Garen can't jump over a wall and kill you without flash.

LordGeovanniFeb 18, 20161 votes

lack of mobility and being stopped from reaching carries is not part of a juggernaut description. Juggernaut is characterized buy the fact that they are tanky enough to go where the please and do what they want (more or less with in game balance) while dealing damage

AlwaysByMySideFeb 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

lack of mobility and being stopped from reaching carries is not part of a juggernaut description. Juggernaut is characterized buy the fact that they are tanky enough to go where the please and do what they want (more or less with in game balance) while dealing damage

No, you are 100% wrong here.

"Juggernauts - [b]Immobile[/b], tough, build one to two offensive items on average (e.g. Nasus or Garen)"

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/08/red-post-collection-bilgewater-burning.html#2

"The juggernaut class' primary weakness is being kited, and this is no different for Illaoi."

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/11/red-post-collection-poppy-champion.html

"Sub Class Strengths

Extreme tankiness (primarily via raw health). Constant, not windowed, defense. Sustained damage (threat/influence primarily through damage) Sub Class Weaknesses

Low mobility (kiteable in combat in particular) Low range (overall very melee dependent compared to most classes) Low initiation potential (lack of aggressive CC, difficulty getting onto desired targets. Main argument against Shyvana being a juggernaut's the dash on her ult, she's got the ability to get onto a target from a significant range. Olaf's ult makes him very hard to kite by contrast, so he also doesn't fit the criteria."

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/fWOVQoin-followup-juggernaut-items?comment=000d0000000100040000

LordGeovanniFeb 18, 20161 votes

when does riot ever stick to their character design adcs are supposed to be unable to self peel more than half adcs have some type of mobility and boost and cc the ones that dont have multiple mobility boosts. they can assassins are supposed to be squishy with high damage thats why tank ekko was so previlant. hang on every word a rioter says when you play the game every day. that short range dash in illoi in a team fight when everyone isnt moveing much is very significant and when she ults i w the nearest person and use my next w to get to a carry very mobile

Rule 34Feb 17, 20161 votes

Except Fiora and Vi aren't juggernauts by any definition.

LordGeovanniFeb 17, 20162 votes

Vi is

Phoenix Kotori Feb 17, 20165 votes

So it's hard to kill people who use 2 items slot and 4000g for mostly defensive stats, how absurd.

You're gimping their dmg output hard by forcing them to build like that.

JQKAndreiFeb 17, 20161 votes

Maw of malmortius isn't at all "mostly defense" with his 55 ad and 10 armor pen.

Steraks also gives ad that doubles when the shield pops.

Phoenix Kotori Feb 17, 20162 votes

item 3155 is mostly defensive, 20 AD/35 MR & shield, while when upgraded to item 3156 it becomes more in the middle.

Steraks also gives ad that doubles when the shield pops.

For 8 seconds wow.

JQKAndreiFeb 17, 20164 votes

For 8 seconds wow.

Assassins won't stay in combat that long anyway.

Athenes LuluFeb 17, 20163 votes

I think they're just more salty on how they haven't "gotten love" over the past few years ~~though nearly ignoring the fact that a bunch of AP itemizations got buffed sometime after Cinderhulk patches~~.

PhantomGGFeb 17, 20165 votes

Let's just ignore the fact that the only good assassins during season 5 were the ones who could also take up the mage role, le blanc and ahri.

Let's ignore the fact that in the lcs you were considered a bad mid laner if you couldn't play Azir, Viktor or Oriana.

Let's ignore the fact that Zed ignoring the first early part in spring was literally the worse mid laner in the game for all of 2015 for all you had to do was build a qss or a zhonyas and their was legit nothing he could do anymore once late game hits.

Hell let's ignore the fact that even in the so called "assassin" meta the only two assassins we see being played regularly in the mid laner are Ahri and Zed, sometimes Leblanc, mainly because they are the only ones who can match the burst mages offer to teams.

TNHA BaritoneFeb 17, 20164 votes

People bring up the QSS / Zhonyas arguement a lot. 1) Zhonyas costs a lot and you only get stasis from the full item but on items like Hexdrinker and QSS (People don't mention Zed can build it to escape CC too) you get unique actives / passive 2) Zhonyas doesn't give mages damage core stats besides AP. QSS gives you magic resist....You're VS an Zed....... Maw and Mercurial both give extra offensive stats to aid in combat. 3) Chosing between Zhonyas and Morrello could limit a mage's power, while AD assassins move around it with quick Armor Pen.

C9 Scott Free Feb 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Midnight Karma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2qYlYihI,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-17T05:59:52.224+0000)

People bring up the QSS / Zhonyas arguement a lot. 1) Zhonyas costs a lot and you only get stasis from the full item but on items like Hexdrinker and QSS (People don't mention Zed can build it to escape CC too) 2) It doesn't give mages damage core stats besides AP. Maw and Mercurial both give extra offensive stats to aid in combat. 3) Chosing between Zhonyas and Morrello could limit a mage's power, while AD assassins move around it with quick Armor Pen.

dude 10 Armor pen is less significant than the 15 sorc boots gives and costs less. Hourglass doesn't have a real trade off if you double dip in Dorans. Besides, you shouldn't be able to build the same thing every game without consequence. If anything that would mean that mages were OP if they didn't have itemization tradeoffs every game. AD mids have to decide if they want to rush mmaw or some other AD item if it is vs another AD or if they still need to stop and get hexdrinker because of the jg/top. It's not all candy it just feels that way from the other side. Do you really think it would be balanced if mages didn't have to itemize for their lane opponent while in lane at least?

SnugglePuggle94Feb 17, 20163 votes

Ahem then they were severely NERFED when the marksmen and tank update came through. So yea with all the new OP AD items and our nerfed items, we are pissed.

TNHA BaritoneFeb 17, 20161 votes

[deleted]

SnugglePuggle94Feb 17, 20161 votes

I was talking about the end of season 5. DFG was removed way before it.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

TNHA BaritoneFeb 17, 20161 votes

[deleted]

SnugglePuggle94Feb 17, 20161 votes

DFG was never brought up in this discussion until you said it, and is completely irrevelant to the topic of AP itemization nerfs that happened at the end of last season.

TNHA BaritoneFeb 17, 20161 votes

Did Cancerous Lulu not bring up the AP Itemization nerfs?

No one was talking bout it in this post then...

Or are unfamiliar to the introduction of new and relative facts?

SnugglePuggle94Feb 17, 20162 votes

He was talking about our itemization that got buffed around Cinderhulk patches but ignored the fact they were nerfed severely after so thats why I said something. You clearly said something not relevant and even deleted your posts.

The Queen ViperFeb 17, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Please tell me how mages suck

They have mana ... meanwhile easy-mode assassins do not.

Oh, and what about those new AD items?

The Bearded BardFeb 17, 20162 votes

Lulu is not a mage, she is a support. There is a massive difference.

You also forgot Ahri, and Morg.

stealthfox94Feb 17, 20161 votes

Tell the LCS casters that.

Faith BreakerFeb 17, 20162 votes

Ahri isn't Immoble

The Bearded BardFeb 17, 20161 votes

No one said anything about mobility. Liss isn't immobile, TF has a near global teleport

PhantomGGFeb 17, 20161 votes

let me tell every pro player and challenger who has been maining her in top or mid for the last 2 years that they are completely wrong

The Bearded BardFeb 17, 20161 votes

Just cause they're played mid lane doesn't make them a mage. Just like playing annie bot lane doesn't make her a support, it means you're playing a mage bot lane.

Snow TeaFeb 17, 20162 votes

w8, so the point of this post?

CatastropFeb 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lissandra is God tier and a super contested pick in the lcs

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing, but this right here is just nonsense. When people stop comparing the LCS to SoloQ, it will be a wonderful day. Lissandra honestly kind of sucks in SoloQ but because most teams just don't know how to take advantage of the fact I'm giving them a 5 man snare, lock down on the enemy ADC/Assassin or big disruption in a teamfight in the form of a 5 man self-ult. TLDR; God-Tier in LCS, Meh in SoloQ. Also, Mages don't specifically suck, it's just the Meta sucks for us.