As in,
"They may be really strong but they are very difficult to learn!"
Difficulty is not a balance to being strong, because once you do learn how to play that champion they are incredibly strong with very little counterplay. Not talking about every champ, but there are a few I commonly see this said about.
MistroTTC49 votes
Is what happens when people think difficulty counts as a weakness.
TyrekGoldenspear3 votesSigh... Sad but true.
Laxfan5211 votesI hate to agree because i like azir, but i have to agree
Aeró1 votespoor azir. whatever happened to that sonuvabitch? I used to really like him
TyrekGoldenspear1 votesWell.... Off the top of my head..
Passive, used to give Atk speed for CDR, no longer does, now it only makes a tower.
Q, I think the range was shortened and the damage lowered per solider hitting you.
W, It no longer shreds towers by spawning a solider on top of the tower. The solider base damage scaling per level was nerfed as well.
E, it no longer knocks up, and the shield is flat, scaling on nothing at all.
R, Less soldiers are spawned, the wall itself doesn't last as long, no longer speeds allies by running through (for real though, who used this part of the ult? I sure didn't.)
MistroTTC1 votesAlso he lost his third soldier.
Arcus Diabolus22 votesThats not what skill cap is. You are talking about skill floor. Skill cap is the upper limit to what a player can do. The best that player can get. The skill floor is the minimum skill required to play that champion at an acceptable and viable level.
Think getting a driver's license vs being a pro racer.
And there isn't one champ that has a high skill floor. Skill cap is arguable, but certainly not skill floor.
meowwow75 votes 
and 
tend to be hard to learn
Arcus Diabolus3 votes
I don't think so. I never struggled to learn Azir, for example.
Avienal2 votes[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2kKsUMyc,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-09T22:32:18.216+0000)
I don't think so. I never struggled to learn Azir, for example.
Have to agree there, my only memories of Azir was when he was a norm and he was a oppressive butt'hole about it with the EZ super fast thunerlord procs and 'stab range' autos from the soldiers letting him pull off EZ harass poke damage. Not to mention it would be relatively easy for him to Summon a soldier and throw it right at you when you 'think' you are a safe distance away, then comes the shurima shuffle where he swaps places with a soldier, Rs you next to his old spot where the soldier is and autos the crap out of you and forces you to get mauled by autos from him while you run around the wall or run into the jungle only to get facesmacked by the enemy jungler.
They need to seriously reorganize the definitions of skill cap/skill ceilings in LoL and make them actually match up and they properly 'flex out the champions who are called 'high skilled' but plenty of them are running around and snowballing matches too much' so Lee, Hecarim and the other scumbag type champs require much more 'skill' to play effectively and reduce the constant abusive use on them for EZ yolo kills. [slayer-jinx-unamused]
Awhegark5 votesHis easy to learn, but hard to master. You won't be able to master azir until at least 100+ games.
LordGeovanni1 votesThat is bs and a arbitrary number people usually dont even try to loook into champion mastery until ocer 70 games on a champ. Just because the average person takes 100 games to show mastery doesnt mean it cant be done in less. I watch youtubers watch the release page read and play a champion take 3 games to realise their e slows and more games to put together combos i see from spell trailers. Even the best players in the world dont say they mastered champions only commentators say that about peoples play and games often flip and throw from there
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesBEcause your perspective on that subjective is completely wrong. You don'T say you need 100 games to realize which combos are possible or what his abilities do. It's about how does that champ interact with other abilities how does he do in every matchup possible. KNowing when to be able to do certain things. Knowing when exactly you are able to go for a kill without getting killed yourself. All these small aspects are relevant to call yourself a master of a champ.
LordGeovanni1 votesYou are wrong because 100 games dont gaurentee you get to play every match up possible. For all you know you could play versus syndra arhi yasou zed and annie mid all 100 games where is your every situation mastery then. You dont have to play versus trundle anivia jarvin and taliayh to know if 1 dash can pass player made terrain. This game does not have that many unique mechanics that you cant see almost every mechanic implimented similarly on at least 3 diffrent champions and items. The knowledge you have about every other character in the game should be of use when a new character comes out even with out testing you should have an idea that every new directional dash that doesnt made the dashing character invunrable or immune to cc will be interuptable bu y poppy e gragas e and the like that shouldnt need game play . Playing a new character is easy use new spell relate to current spell repeat for whole kit figure out synergy it shouldnt take more than ten minutes to have a basic feel of the spells you spamming in lane . Its simple obseevation and relation. Some spells are new spells like ivern make a bush but that isnt exactly hard to use they tell you it reveals for 2 seconds.
Velasan2 votes[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2kKsUMyc,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-09T22:32:18.216+0000)
I don't think so. I never struggled to learn Azir, for example.
I didn't have trouble learning these guys either, but they are hard to master. For some people it's easy to pick them up, but they have so many inherent details in their kit (for example Azir can diagonal dash by Q'ing to the side and following it with E) that it takes a long time to figure out all the strange ways you can use those mechanical extras.
Azir's bigger problem is an identity issue though. On release they were like, oh he is a utility champion who helps to pick up kills. Then he became a hyper carry. Then he became a poke mage. Since he was a poke mage they then removed a lot of his utility... so now he's kind of Orianna with soldiers, but not her other abilities and a dash instead.
To this day his bugs are still being fixed. :/
Lord Phazanor 5 votes[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2kKsUMyc,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-09T22:32:18.216+0000)
I don't think so. I never struggled to learn Azir, for example.
Because your sole experience invalidates what is admitted by most of the playerbase. I played Taric since his rework and found him really easy to do well with. I still aknowledge he's hard to learn. He was easy to me because I played champs that were similar to him and I'm a support main.
FatedSaviour5 votestaric isnt really that hard, and while im on it, taric's passive does so much dmg, i went only support items with taric and was able to duel their reksai jg whenever i wanted due to his passive, i'd rather have his Q mana cost decreased a little bit and his passive do a little bit less dmg
Voluug133 votesConsidering that he is supposed to be a bruiser-ish support, its fine. He has zero mobility, zero sticking power aside a delayed stun, and its already mediocre enough outside support (and Riot DID say that Taric top/jg was a supportable off-role).
His passive is half the time, or more, used on minions while laning. Its fine. And his Q is sadly balanced around his capacity to hit all teammates with it, as much as I could love it being strong when it hits less champions.
LordGeovanni2 votesThe passive that was 1 attack and had its damage and cd split in half not to mention he lose his w which did damage his ult which did damage and lost damage on his for being aoe and lost its closeness scaling, and before all of that tarics damage out side of his point blank e was considered shit. Something doesnt add up there.
Crimsonknight902 votes
The Bardic Gay2 votestaric ???
I'n not sure about hard to pick up, but I've found Taric very difficult to master. Timing on his ult and optimizing his stun to option select the enemy, or hit the most targets possible takes a lot of time and good game sense.
Hexs Fortune10 votes[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2kKsUMyc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-05-09T22:04:02.653+0000)
Thats not what skill cap is. You are talking about skill floor. Skill cap is the upper limit to what a player can do. The best that player can get. The skill floor is the minimum skill required to play that champion at an acceptable and viable level.
Think getting a driver's license vs being a pro racer.
And there isn't one champ that has a high skill floor. Skill cap is arguable, but certainly not skill floor.
[zombie-nunu-tears]
Anidan2 votesAurelion Sol may be among the highest skill floors in League, but I would have to agree with Arcus and say that not one champion in League has a high skill floor. They may have high skill floors relative to each other, and they may have a high skill ceiling, but their floors overall aren't that high. There's definitely harder characters to use and meaningfully contribute to your team with in both DotA2 and HotS (yes, even there) than Aurelion Sol.
Xilixer1 votesi doubt many league players would be able to do good with lost vikings or abathur in hots
nice table8 votesi doubt many league players would be able to do good with most champions in league :^)
Kaìju1 votesBut I'm actually kinda good at Abathur ;-;
Troll for Trump3 votesNo, I think he is talking about skill floor. Most champs have around the same skill cap; the difference is between the champs skill floors.
Let's say the skill floor capped out at Challenger level.
At that level, where skill level is no longer an inhibitor, the limiting factor is the champion. If a champion has less weaknesses than other champs because of skill floor, at that higher level, they won't have that as a weakness anymore, leaving that champ with more strength/less weaknesses than other champs at that level of play.
This is not just limited to high elo. So long as people are of the exact same skill level (which Rito tries to do with matchmaking), the champ with the lower skill floor will be worse than the one with higher skill floor.
Actually, on second though, it's both.
Fed by Snu Snu10 votesA lot of people also confuse their own personal abilities with the skill a champion requires. Sometimes the kit of the champion just connects with your own abilities and play mentality and you get to use a champion much better.
Take for example Riven. Her skill cap is not ridiculously high. Like...it sounds hard on paper but you only need to spend some time practising her cancels after you learn what they are. (now, being the person who found them out is a whole other deal, but you can just google them) And yet, just learning the animation cancels means nothing, because she requires a ballsy mentality with a slight touch of creativity. And if you don't have those, you don't get to meet her criteria of peak performance.
So we have person A who lacks those virtues and person B who has them.
When Riot balances so that Person A can do well with Riven, we get Season 3 Riven which was nightmare fuel, whereas the baseline should be Person B instead.
Troll for Trump7 votesAnd that's why you get the stereotyped X champ mains.
PhDs Nuts8 votescoughRivenahem
TEA Nietzsche 3 votesShe isn't strong right now either way.
Voluug132 votesMaybe, but the moment she is even a bit stronger that other people, she dominates ludicrously hard.
Kal Vas Flam4 votesDifficulty is a pathetic excuse for allowing certain champions to run a muck due to be being way over-tuned. When you say a champion is "difficult" all you're saying is they take more reps to learn. None of the champions in this game are so advanced that they require a higher IQ or some shit to learn. They're all limited to pretty small pool of abilities and attributes. Again, difficulty only represents the number of reps you have to do get good with a champ. The entire concept of champion difficulty needs to be done away with.
deadlychuck3 votesArguably, by making the "higher skill cap" champions more powerful, riot is actually making them easier to play. If you are stronger, then by nature you have an easier time winning.
Really, the fact that these "hard to play"/"high skill cap" champions have a normal win rate is evidence that riot has made the champions easier by making them more powerful than the average champion. Else, a harder to play champion should inherently have a lower win rate, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
FooDang2 votesWhat champions are you talking about? Just because a champion has a high skill ceiling doesn't mean they don't have counterplays. It's just means they are harder to have maximum efficiency when you play them.
TheSingularity8 votesThis issue is once someone acquires this efficiency, there is little room for the opponent to do anything.
Ryze kalista and azir are good examples of this.
SweedishGunner1 votesThere's plenty of outplay potential to a good Azir, otherwise he'd be played way more competitively.
He also has a garbage early game.
TheSingularity4 votesHas and there's are the key words wrong.
He is only like that because riot completely gutted his numbers to boot him out of pro play.
Azir is similar to darius but to a lesser degree. It's more so up to the azir to fuck up than it is you to out play him
SweedishGunner1 votesSo you're saying you can't outplay a good Azir? If this were true like I said, wouldn't he be 100% P/B in pro play where the team can babysit him through his bad early game.
TheSingularity6 votesU couldn't learn to read
PAST TENSE! He was 100% p/b. Not anymore. My god like talking to a brick wall
NineTailedMystic1 votesOppressive early game
ftfy
WQ AA AA TLD is outrageous for a "weak early game"
TyrekGoldenspear2 votesPsst. Azir player here, pro tip.
If I Q my soldiers at you, move towards me and attack. This often rattles newer Azirs and a lot of more experienced ones don't expect this reaction either. We all expect you to run away when poked, when you should just go at us and outtrade us.
This has been your pro tip. Can I get a protip for surviving Ahri trades?
NineTailedMystic1 votesHrm, well, I might not be a good person to ask cause I'm garbage, but honestly the thing I'm looking for most is to poke you down for a guaranteed all-in at 6 or with enough poke an earlier all in at levels 4-5 if I can hit an E. Her main trading pattern is hitting both ends of Q and using the MS to gapclose enough for an AA procing TLD. If you can avoid even just one part of her Q she has to commit a lot more to the trade putting her at 550 range for W (if she can get there) or using a lot of Mana for E, otherwise you win the trade if you get off your TLD and she didn't.
I haven't played against an Azir in a long time, but if I remember right, it might even be a bit of a struggle to get close enough for the AA if I get slowed by Q even through the MS boost. For the most part though, you just have to be very wary at 6 especially for a Flash E, but you can turn the tables with an R into your tower if she's pressuring too closely.
FooDang3 votesAzir has to do a lot to be efficient. Annie does not. Flash Tibbers blows up Azir. Azir has to play around that. An Annie that understands Azir can play around that. Azir has to do more and Annie is looking for the right moment. Skill ceiling does not equal OP.
NineTailedMystic2 votesWhen mains reach absurd win rates, there's probably a problem. Just like how Aurelion Sol and Taliyah got nerfs targeted at the people good at them because they were basically freelo if you understood how to play them. Just like how Azir got dumpstered too.
TimX24968B1 votesaccording to the op, why even bother playing azir if you can do the same thing with annie: win the game?
TimX24968B1 votesHowever, there needs to be some benefit to having a higher skill ceiling than other champions with lower skill ceilings. They tend to balance some of these champions around the Elos that they are played in most commonly sometimes, too.
deadlychuck3 votesWhy?
Serious question. Why is it that you think, necessitates that a champion who is more difficult to play needs to have more power?
TimX24968B1 votesto give them a reason to get good at them mechanically? else, why not just play garen if he can shit on people just as much as insert high skill floor champion here who has mastered every single mechanic about that champion?
(this is an example. dont start a garen rant, it was the first low skillfloor champ to come to mind)
deadlychuck1 votesExcept wouldn't making them have an easier time beating the low skill floor champions, inherently make them easier to play? Which by design makes these "high skill" champions actually lower skill to win? Doesn't that kinda paradoxically make them lower skill, by being high skill? Hmmm.
A champion's difficulty isn't determined in a vacuum of themselves, it's about them and their interactions with the enemy.
If what you're concerned with is winning, then you'd just counter pick them. If you want a reason to get good at the champion, why is it necessary to have something which is given more power to incentivise people to play them? If you think people wouldn't find these champions attractive or fun to play unless they were stronger makes me think you have a very low opinion of people.
There is no legitimate reason, from a game design prospective, to make these high skill champions more powerful than the other low skill champions.
