Am I the only one that feels like it will be juggernauts who will benefit the most from tank rework?

Zero Skill Tank··46 votes·2,543 views
  • less health, more resistances on items. A wet dream for champs with 2.3k base health like Dario or Yorick
  • adaptive helm to counter DPS mages. DPS mages hurt juggs more than tanks, because they have more problems to walk through cc-spam
  • Doran shield buff. Again, benefits juggs more - it helps in rough matchups like melee vs ranged, but tanks don't really care about rough matchups
  • SV changes, you guessed it, benefits juggernauts more, as they typically have more sustain in one form or another. I don't want to be forced to try to kill Illaoi with new DD and SV.
  • Sterak's buff. Shield got nurfed early, but AD should make up for that... for champions that use it and have high bases
  • increasing amount of resistances in game benefits champions with inbuilt shred, like Dario and Garen
  • lowering HP available benefits champions with true damage, like Dario Garen an Olaf

BC gets nurfed in a noticeable way, but it shouldn't make up for all of this - it loses some % of armor penetration, but this is because introducing more armor into the system makes % armor penetration more valuable.

Especially Darius starts looking legit scary - he is still really strong now, he benefits really directly from almost every single change, BC change shouldn't hurt him since building armor is basically pointless against him AND he has potential use cases for Stoneplate that other juggs don't really have (metallicizing to safely stack passive or in-between Q casts).

48 Comments

Meep Man8 votes

Question: Why do Juggernauts have better defesive stats than Tanks?

Wheatloaf2 votes

They're generally expected to build more health and less resistances, and have anywhere from worse to no cc.

Ralanr2 votes

They also usually have more built in sustain that scales with their health. So more health means more sustain.

Juggernauts can basically last longer in a fight despite having fewer resistances because of all that sustain.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

They also usually have more built in sustain that scales with their health. So more health means more sustain.

Juggernauts can basically last longer in a fight despite having fewer resistances because of all that sustain.

Aye, I find it funny when people get shocked at how squishy darius can be if you outplay his Q.

Sire Hippington24 votes

Because they actually have to soak up more damage. Tanks have cc that prevents oppnents from doing damage, most of them have their damage and cc in bursty rotations and can hang back while it's on cd and tanks have gapclosers.

Juggernauts need to walk up to their targets, leaving them vulnerable to attacks, and then they usually need to stick in the fight for some time to really do things, all while not haveing cc that prevents people from doing damage. As a result, they need overall more durabillity to funktion than tanks do.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2jzTHvZ8,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2017-04-20T13:30:31.738+0000)

Because they actually have to soak up more damage. Tanks have cc that prevents oppnents from doing damage, most of them have their damage and cc in bursty rotations and can hang back while it's on cd and tanks have gapclosers.

Juggernauts need to walk up to their targets, leaving them vulnerable to attacks, and then they usually need to stick in the fight for some time to really do things, all while not haveing cc that prevents people from doing damage. As a result, they need overall more durabillity to funktion than tanks do.

That's dumb, the whole point of juggernauts is that they're supposed to die while walking up to their target. Once they get there, their sustain more than makes up for any lacking tank stats.

Big Lincoln9 votes

they don't usually have defensive steroids and rely on having high stats. usually their sustain is tied to their health as well

also that they lack the threat range most tanks do

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chicken Dynasty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2jzTHvZ8,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-04-20T13:09:34.617+0000)

Question: Why do Juggernauts have better defesive stats than Tanks?

Most likely because tanks have active defensives as well.( but so does Trundle andGaren )

AtheosisX1 votes

They don't. They have better base stats, but tanks scale better with defensive items and have defensive steroids.

Elkington VI1 votes

Most juggs have to balance offense and defense in their builds, while tanks can build purely defensively and still do their jobs.

EndlessSorcerer6 votes

Considering the reworks are completely screwing over three tanks, this wouldn't surprise me.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

{quoted}

Considering the reworks are completely screwing over three tanks, this wouldn't surprise me.

as a darius player if anything I love to play against tanks. the more the better. if the enemy team has multiple damage champs i simply cannot heal fast enough and just die easily.

Captaín Insano1 votes

{quoted}

Considering the reworks are completely screwing over three tanks, this wouldn't surprise me.

If you are talking about Sejuani, Zac, and Maokai. then I agree they are screwing over Zac and Maokai. But the Sejuani Rework is vast improvement

Voluug131 votes

Sejuani: I will stand back and look as you all pop my passive and THEN get in, because otherwise I get nothing done, sinec I am still a meatsack with no defensives aside stacking HP.

Captaín Insano1 votes

{quoted}

Sejuani: I will stand back and look as you all pop my passive and THEN get in, because otherwise I get nothing done, sinec I am still a meatsack with no defensives aside stacking HP.

Sejuanis passive is absurdly strong. Its near the levels of Malzahars. Except for a tank. Regardless. Sej is meant to be your engage. so pushing up far enough to pop her passive is asking for her to ult you and start the fight since her ultimates range is farther then most of the ranged abilities in the game. Her follow up with her q and and passive stacking stun makes it so she can lock down targets easily. Yeah she is a meat tank. But so are tahm kench and Dr. Mundo. Both of which have things that assist this play style. Mundo with his passive and his ultimate feeding him essentially free HP and Tahm with his E and his consistent slowing Q and high base stats. Sejuanis kit helps her engage and lock down enemies. (multiple if played properly) which makes her easily the strongest of the 3 reworks. and will probably make her an extremely powerful mid to late game team fight jungler. And a decent early pressure jungler with her new stun and her q.

Big Lincoln5 votes

good, we deserve this

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

Hell no, most of juggernaut have brain absent gameplay.

Come on they haven't nerfed fcker like Quinn (cancerous laning, pssy ranged),Lulu Ivern ... And i'll be back to ban my worst ennmy Hentai Amazon [zombie-brand-facepalm] And Demacian Dog will be back. Noxus barbarian wasn't a big issue... but they buffed sustain on item 3065 and nerfed item 3123. U already know how this will end

Big Lincoln2 votes

mmmm delicious

JVP155 votes

It will certainly make juggernauts stronger, and I like that. It will also boost a few champions like Leona , Rammus , Malphite,Taric , and Sion . Leona defensive steroids that SCALE with her defenses. Rammus, Taric, and Malphite all have abilities that scale with armor, and finally, Sion's W passive grants him free health, and the amount of health he gains from it isn't changing, while the levels of resistances are going up. All of these number changes won't break any of these champions, but they certainly won't hurt them either.

EDIT:

A few commenters have pointed out that Braum and Poppy will also be benefited more. I would also like to add Nasus , Renekton , and in a slightly lesser way Chogath because all of their ults give flat health, which is more valuable now than ever.

TheMinez4 votes

Just wanted to point out that Braum will be giving more resists because of availability.

ninjaroxas5 votes

Poppy will also get more armor from her w passive

Hexs Fortune4 votes

Always remember the 4th rule of League:

Anything that benefits juggs and tanks will always benefit divers more.

KoggyStyle1 votes

and adcs!

AtheosisX4 votes

More like it will hurt them less. They are basically murdering tanks with these changes.

AirKingNeo2 votes

How are tanks getting murdered? They get more armor, less HP (BoRK and Kindred nerf anyone?), two new brokens item (DOUBLED HEALTH + massive stats for a low cost of 2500 and then we have GOODBYE DPS MAGES AND KAYLE AND MORDE all in 1 item with no penetration to help), the continued use for Sunfire being too strong, and less percent armor pen.

AtheosisX1 votes

Resistances suck without health and those items are niche items. Tanks are going to be in a really bad spot after the update. Watch.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Ok so? They still build Sunfire the freest laning phase ever. Then they get Iceborn or Visage/Adaptive Helm, and then Stoneplate. Boom, tankier than ever.

Acheron162 votes

I expect major nerfs for Darius.

He loves every single change the patch will bring (except Black Cleaver nerf obviously) and the new items are perfect for him (let's give a teamfighting monster an item to make him survive even more).

With Gargoyle's Stoneplate Darius can heal with Q, stack passive, and ult safely, this on a champion that loves teamfights.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Darius already sucks. Item buffs for him are good but aren't going to break him.

morris12 votes

You may or may not remember Yorick after this. No but seriously, it's funny to see tanks at level 2 think they are already unkillable but die immediately to 4 ghouls. Then it's only a matter of time until the ult %hp damage kicks in.

Sèx Craved Eve1 votes

Nerfs to black cleaver will really hurt Garen, Darius, and Illaoi. Morde/Skraner will be fine

Mordepool1 votes

For the 1st time in a year+ I can say that an indirect change to the game will actually benefit Mordekaiser. You may have a case.

AirKingNeo1 votes

and then Adaptive Helm makes your Q deal jack shit.

Acheron161 votes

{quoted}

and then Adaptive Helm makes your Q deal jack shit.

Who cares about that? He has his passive and ultimate, his Q is pretty much just to poke in lane and heal in fights.

Nechronia1 votes

I mean, all of damage is over time except for his E so yes, Adaptive Helm is kind of a problem for him.

Lighten1 votes

Super scared about Darius.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

Well Darius is still sporadically ban across the table and honestly I rarely see him in my games anymore because of this.

I think the whole idea of juggernauts in general weren't such a great idea, a "tank" that essentially packs a huge punch and their only ideal counterplay is to run from them lol.. come on.. You can run from them all game but when they flash on you or appear out of no where you're pretty much dead.

Anyways juggernauts are looking a lot more beneficial with the item rework and most likely Riot will nerf the champion first instead of the item.

LICENSED HOOKER1 votes

Darius

What a day to be alive

SzGamer2271 votes

On one hand the the true damage nuke is going to be more effective against enemy champions who build resistances than ever.

On the other hand flat true damage is going to be more terrifying than ever.

I guess I'll have to see, but I'm looking forward to tanks being easier to dunk ;D

THE RlVER KlNG1 votes

Them and crit adcs who don't rely on armor pen as much

Otherwise yes I am disappointed by Riot once again

Spoofghoul1 votes

where have we seen this before . . .

oh right lethality adc's i almost forgot

Now anyone still excited ofr the reworked tanks?

juggernaut update was such a huge success Graves is another great success case Oh almost forgot kog maw rework such brilliance Malzahar is totally success case too I think we can safely say that katerina and fizz and rengar are such fun to play against

Honestly as far as i am concerned riot can take their midseason updates and shove them up their ass

woodvsmurph1 votes

Tanks will still be great mid/late game. They probably get bullied more in lane at 1 item, but are harder to kill at 2+ items if you only have 1 type of damage. Also, you forgot to mention one other benefit to some bruisers - champs like Nasus Renekton and maybe even Gnar who already get a bunch of hp from their kit didn't scale as well due to their tankiness scaling off hp rather than resistances. Well now they get more resistances with items, and they don't miss lost hp from items as much. Although malphite with his bonus damage via w and e from stacking armor should be very happy late game.

SzGamer2271 votes

{quoted}

  • less health, more resistances on items. A wet dream for champs with 2.3k base health like Dario or Yorick

I'd celebrate the change but I'm dead scared of what True Damage is going to do to me if I can't build as much health to counter.

Fiora Velkoz Ahri Syndra MasterYi Camille Gangplank Olaf https://i.giphy.com/12XMGIWtrHBl5e.gif

Arsenic Sulfur1 votes

Wait Syndra deals true damage? You sure you weren't smacked by 7 balls while she had elder? TRANSCENDENT BONUS: Force of Will deals 「 20% bonus 」 true damage. Huh, well I be damned.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

juggernauts kits are designed to scale with health. a lot of them have % health scalings on their abilities.

all those health nerfs on defensive items feel bad for most of them. and the new tank item wont help them in any shape or form.

the only one who will benefit from the changes is going to be Chogath who will double his health with the stoneplate just before hitting you with his ult. true damage isnt affected by the % damage mitigation, and he will probably increase his ult damage to 1500 or something like that from hitting the active.

the change Yorick will REALLY profit from is is not with the items, but the new rift herald. ive got to practise soloing that thing with the maiden.

unleash both your ult and the herald on the enemy turret as soon as your opponent steps out of lane, and youre gonna push through to the nexus.

ive seen the herald tackle an outer top turret for 1/3 of its health. it was ridiculous.

AmazoX1 votes

I welcome those buffs, They needed it to be honest with the high mobility and damage in this game.

Cough Anyone think GP will be back in the Meta hard? Cough Ignoring 40% of the targets armor with Barrels and amps up the base damage with Trinity force's 200% + Critical Strike while IE bought along with Statik and Cannon passives damage stacked on each other.

Laughs Maniacally Of course it would be a fun normals game build only :P

jadelink1 votes

I think its a mixed case, there will be obvious winners, and losers, but I don't think these are on a tank/Juggernaut divide.

Health down, resistances up. This is obviously a solid buff to true damage.

-Sustain damage mages are obvious losers this patch.

-Assassins will also fall back, especially AD ones, as the new GA gives marksmen a legitimate item to defend with, that doesn't utterly screw their damage.

-Hp stackers are net losers, Voli, lane Mundo, we cant really speak about new Sej though, till we see more of her. She does seem to be a bit closer to a juggernaut now, will less/more conditional CC, if she has no more damage, then she was flat out nerfed.

-Resist Stackers are net winners. Malphite is coming to a top lane near you, watch all AD teams suffer more. Taric may also make a bit of a comeback. Nasus, Irelia and Darius gain somewhat here, as a lower health pool but larger resists means their lifesteal/heal goes further.

-Bork and its users take a step back, but the item is very strong now anyway. It may be still necessary on all marksmen though, if tanks with Gargoyleplate are common.

-In bruiser lineups, the nerf to BC means that Trinity users gain ground over Black Cleaver users, particularly if the trinity user builds armour. This is amped up lategame by the new buffs to

-Divers are mostly net winners, as the new GA gives AD but no MR. This was made to benefit markmen, but Irelia, Jax, Olaf, etc are going to be OK with this. Naut, Maokai etc are going to miss the MR, if they

-The change to banshees means Blitzcrank takes a real buff. Now marksmen getting pulled have a much worse purchase to make in order to get that bubble, (unless they are Ez or Kog). Likewise most bruisers and light fighters really don't want that AP, but don't want to be pulled and burst down.

-Trundle just got a huge buff, now there are MORE resistances to steal, and less hp to cover the victim. (and more tanks/jugs to ulti).

-The real utterly terrifying people will be those who can build tanky but do true damage, and can thus use stoneplates active, whilst still really hurting their damage output so much.

Darius and Fiora will be permaban worthy I suspect. I've been full tank and had an ulting fiora do 80% of my health as true damage. Now she can do the same with double her normal HP, lets try bursting that down in a teamfight (especially with bonus resists on Stoneplate kicking in till she kills the first half of the team). Cho, Irelia and Yi probably gain some ground too, but proportionately less (due to less true damage).

To a lesser extent, those with %armour shred/ignore gain, due to less hp and more armour. Yasuo and GP seem to be favoured here (and yasuo just got a small MR buff too).

I am also dreading the potential rise of bruiser Vayne in toplane, with frozen mallet, stoneplate, new GA, phantom dancer and a lifesteal item simply shred through multiple juggernauts whilst being close to invulnerable. Hopefully it won't be that good, but... it's a real fear.

Marksmen are net winners. The new GA + the rise of tanks, and the reduction of sustain mage damage, is going to lead to them actually being needed to grind down the enemy frontline, and peel being a meaningful and useful thing again (no, we cant peel Rengar off you in the .1 seconds it takes him to instagib you from stealth, but now you get up again with GA). Beware the GA divers though. Leathality lanebullies may end up being raged at by their teams as they struggle to deal with steel plated toplaners come midgame.

New rift herald will make top lane the source of more jungle attention early game. This may possibly cut down on the power of lane bullies with no escapes (like Darius).

Most interesting to me will be the jungle changes. Particularly buffing the clear (but nerfing pvp damage) on tanks rushing their jungle item. Mundo jungle could well rise, as the passive %HP buff will be very desirable, and with the warmogs changes may let him build warmogs second item and get the passive. Will we see tank junglers feel viable again?

Generally, the patch seems a good thing, unless you main a sustain damage mage, though some true damage users may need a nerf or three. At least in a tank meta, adcs are useful (even if pressured and struggling), whilst in an assassin meta, they are just fodder.

The Bad Touch1 votes

Lot of words.

Long story short... they fucked up seasons 3, 6, 7. They still haven't managed to figure out why Season 2/5 were so good. They gonna dick with shit until everyone quits trying to figure that out. Took'em this fucking long to put back in an Armor/AD item....

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