Viktor Top does not create a diverse lane. AP Ranged tops never have.

Moody P··69 votes·17,307 views

We go through this song and dance at least once a season; some mage or AP top laner becomes good and immediately starts bodying most of the top lane roster. They're almost always immense melee-lane bullies who will outscale you if you're a bruiser or match you if you're a tank - except they'll be ahead of you because they just bodied you in lane.

Remember how fun it was when other mages went top and were good enough to be prominent? Remember Ryze both before and after his reworks when he'd go top and dumpster you if you couldn't deal with his harass? Or Kennen, who'd pelt you with auto attacks and outrun you if you tried to all-in without a hard gap closer? Or Cass? Or Lissandra? Heimer? Rumble? Swain pre-VGU? Remember how diverse top lane was when these guys controlled the lane?

Because I sure don't.

Listen; some of these champions having counterpicks doesn't mean the lane becomes diverse. You could pick old Irelia into Kennen and you would have one of the easiest snowball lanes you'd ever experience in League. All that means is that you can no longer blind pick the champions you WANT to play unless you just resolve to permaban whichever mage could ruin you for the entire course of the game.

If Viktor top is about to be a thing, and he's gonna keep being a thing because suddenly THIS one is the messiah that will make top lane a diversity utopia, then make a choice. If he's going to shit on every juggernaut and tank that can't leap onto him or outrange him while he beats them down with pure base damages from his kit and his Iceborn first item while he also accelerates his snowball with Klepto, then gut his scaling so that we can at least match him later on. If he's going to be a top laner because he can find some safety to scale up there, then put a hammer to his ability to spam the shit out of Q and slowly push you out of the lane. This is my only issue and it's the same issue with all of these AP top laners; I could care less that his Q mashing is entirely targeted. I care a lot that he can effortlessly button-mash me out of the lane from level 1 and will be far more valuable to his team than me in a 5v5 even if he doesn't zone me or snowball.

Regardless of how you feel about whether or not Viktor can or should fit comfortably in top lane, he is numerically too good and something needs to be hit. Raise his Q mana cost, make his Q MS scale with hex core ranks so he has to delay IBG if he wants to run faster, reduce base damage and buff his scaling. I don't care, honestly. Keep him top if you want to. But given that League is a game that prides itself on having as few hard counter games as possible, address the fact that Viktor has so many lanes where he has to be trolling to lose.

Thanks for reading.

106 Comments

Fízz v273 votes

if you nerf viktor top, also nerf bruisers being the best mid laners in the game Irelia Aatrox ty

Moody P50 votes

They both need nerfs anyway lol

saltran14 votes

The thing about Irelia is that on midlane she's a bruiser with more kill potential than a real assasin that neither can be bursted.

ankoanko192 votes

{quoted}

The thing about Irelia is that on midlane she's a bruiser with more kill potential than a real assasin that neither can be bursted.

More kill potential than a real assasin You mean inlane? I'm pretty sure a Talon R+Q+W bursts harder than Irelia. This has ALWAYS been the case. But I agree, she shouldnt be able to have so much survivability.

TheSingularity7 votes

Yes but talon has a harder time getting in range and irelia can start with stun, then make her decision based on if it lands. Talon must dive head first, if he can make up the range in the first place

Z3Sleeper5 votes

Talon has to land both hits of W while having 0 defensive tools or hard CC.

Meanwhile Irelia lands one E from a safe distance and your lifebar is toast.

ankoanko192 votes

{quoted}

Talon has to land both hits of W while having 0 defensive tools or hard CC.

Meanwhile Irelia lands one E from a safe distance and your lifebar is toast.

Whats harder to land, a Talon W or an Irelia E https://m.imgur.com/gallery/ojrQv Nevermind how its a difference between only 200 range where the first part of Talons W slows you to practically guarantee the 2nd part.

Talon does have defensive tools, his E and R. People like to say that Irelia is mobile, but realistically speaking , if there arent any minions near, Irelias only escape tool is her flash at that point.

But I get why you dislike Irelia. Aint that much fun when she Qs your ghouls and you have 0 dmg at that point against her.

Z3Sleeper4 votes
  1. Irelia's E by far

  2. Talon W first hit doesn't slow

  3. Talon's E is not a defensive tool for use in a 1v1 skirmish other than completely running away as opposed to Irelia's health gain on Q and heavily defensive W that stays active through CC

  4. R is post-6. While they may be on even-ish grounds there, they aren't pre-6

5. Talon's MS is a whole 10 lower than Irelia's. Meaning Irelia can actually escape easier especially combined with her E vs Talon's W. Ofcourse if Talon is near a wall to begin with, he wins the escape battle.

  1. The Yorick vs Irelia matchup ain't actually that difficult. You can just stand on ghouls to make her hit you instead and put her Q on cooldown (which is easy to do when she's stuck in your W and your minions are under turret). Statistically Irelia wins more vs Yorick though (by like, 0.5% I think, matchup winrates are very skewed right now cuz of the Yorick bug at the start of this patch).
ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

  1. Irelia's E by far

  2. Talon W first hit doesn't slow

  3. Talon's E is not a defensive tool for use in a 1v1 skirmish other than completely running away as opposed to Irelia's health gain on Q and heavily defensive W that stays active through CC

  4. R is post-6. While they may be on even-ish grounds there, they aren't pre-6

  5. Talon's MS is a whole 10 lower than Irelia's. Meaning Irelia can actually escape easier especially combined with her E vs Talon's W. Ofcourse if Talon is near a wall to begin with, he wins the escape battle

  6. The Yorick vs Irelia matchup ain't actually that difficult. You can just stand on ghouls to make her hit you instead and put her Q on cooldown (which is easy to do when she's stuck in your W and your minions are under turret). Statistically Irelia wins more vs Yorick though (by like, 0.5% I think, matchup winrates are very skewed right now cuz of the Yorick bug at the start of this patch).

" The daggers linger for 0.75 seconds before flying back to Talon, dealing physical damage to all enemies they pass through and Slow them for 1 second." So if youve been hit by the first, youll most likely get hit by the 2nd.

Talon also heals from his Q so that aint valid. Talon also has invis and can yeet out of bad situations unlike Irelia.

Oh wow! An assassin spiking in midgame!

What are you talking about? Both Talon and Irelia have a base ms of 335.

Skill matchup in Irelias favor like you said.

Bârd1 votes

Talons Q is about as much of a heal as Illaoi W is a mobility spell.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

Talons Q is about as much of a heal as Illaoi W is a mobility spell.

Irelia doesnt heal that much either.. Its mostly triumph.

Bârd1 votes

Talons Q heals him 20-71 HP every 4 seconds if there are creeps for him to last hit (since Talon doesn't max Q, he won't even get a lower CD). This won't exceed a 50 health heal until lane is over.

Irelia Q at max rank heals her for 20% her AD with no CD. This means that, every wave, she's going to be healing for 120% her AD if she last hits them all with her Q (140% if it's a siege wave).

With level 9 and a Phage (assuming no AD from runes), that's 126 health every wave (147 for a siege wave).

Even at level 3 with rank 1 Q and no AD from items, she'll get 50 health back per wave.

It's not exactly Aatrox level sustain, but it's pretty damn significant relative to her health pool at that point in the game.

ankoanko191 votes

{quoted}

Talons Q heals him 20-71 HP every 4 seconds if there are creeps for him to last hit (since Talon doesn't max Q, he won't even get a lower CD). This won't exceed a 50 health heal until lane is over.

Irelia Q at max rank heals her for 20% her AD with no CD. This means that, every wave, she's going to be healing for 120% her AD if she last hits them all with her Q (140% if it's a siege wave).

With level 9 and a Phage (assuming no AD from runes), that's 126 health every wave (147 for a siege wave).

Even at level 3 with rank 1 Q and no AD from items, she'll get 50 health back per wave.

It's not exactly Aatrox level sustain, but it's pretty damn significant relative to her health pool at that point in the game.

Talons 40 health at early levels is still better than Irelias 5 health heal at early game. But yes, later on it is significant when she has 4 AD items.

Bârd1 votes

No, not 40. 20. It doesn't hit 40 until level 8.

Meanwhile, Irelia's Q starts out healing her for 7.56 (no bonus AD, with rank 1 Q, at level 1), and she can use it six times which would result in her healing for 45.3.

There is no heal in the game that it worse than Talon's.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

What are you talking about? Both Talon and Irelia have a base ms of 335.

Mb on that one. Didn't fact check, thought it was 345.

feintfiend19 votes

The only AP top laners I accept are Singed Rumble Galio Swain Everything else is pretty cancerous

LTK KoRo4 votes

Since when Rumble isn't cancerous too, his no aggro busted q spam removes any chance to get cs by autoattacking as melee champion without losing 30% of max hp.

D357R0Y3R14 votes

He creates diversity omegalul More like he prevents 3/4 of toplaners from playing the game

EVEN FUCKING RENEKTON CANT DO SHIT AGAINST HIM how do you want to win when he shields a part of your damage+press W and your dash has 18 fucking cd to engage on him

meanwhile he gets klepto and farm gold on you

that's so retarded

Sire Hippington14 votes

Viktor Top does not create a diverse lane. Ranged tops never have.

ftfy Doesn't matter wether they AD or AP, Rnaged tops are always cancer when they are meta, cause the only they to deal with them is haveing all-in threat, and if they are meta, that's usually cause they can deny that threat very effectively, leaveing the vast majority of melees with no way to deal with them.

Moody P4 votes

At least AD ranged tumors are either sub optimal picks that fuck up a team comp or have the courtesy to fall off hard as long as you don't feed or are able to stall the game.

AP range isn't nearly as kind

TheSingularity6 votes

I don't believe vayne in her prime fell off

Moody P10 votes

vayne top was a trash pick that made you have shitty teamfights, so she fills the first slot

she's mildly annoying to juggernauts but most divers and skirmishers would easily push her shit in

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

Idk why the downvotes, even when she was actually picked top she never passed 49% winrate while having low pickrates. The only ones losing to vayne top were people who could only play one playstyle which is head smashing the entire lane regardless of context.

saltran2 votes

Vayne top was always trash even when she had 54% winrate bot but for the Gameplay Boards Vayne top was op somehow.

ZephyrDrake13 votes

"we want diversity but only a certain type of diversity everything else we will complain because actual diversity is not what we are looking for. We just want to mindlessly pick any champion we want regardless of anything and be able to play the game in the exact same way each and every single time"

Moody P24 votes

[deleted]

Tegash6 votes

Here's some actual equivalence. You're complaining about Viktor crowding out toplane, when Irelia and Tryndamere already do that. But Viktor is a problem compared to them? Really?

Moody P8 votes

neither of these champion's are crowding out top lane

Irelia is busted in middle and trynd isn't even OP

ankoanko192 votes

{quoted}

Here's some actual equivalence. You're complaining about Viktor crowding out toplane, when Irelia and Tryndamere already do that. But Viktor is a problem compared to them? Really?

Irelia isnt even op in toplane but in midlane and Tryndamere isnt that good.

Spank the Fox1 votes

[deleted]

Moody P2 votes

you're really desperate for my attention to be talking shit, aren'tcha

AggressiveWolf2 votes

{quoted}

"we want diversity but only a certain type of diversity everything else we will complain because actual diversity is not what we are looking for. We just want to mindlessly pick any champion we want regardless of anything and be able to play the game in the exact same way each and every single time"

Tbh someone who spams howling abyss and plays Ap supports/mages in SR wouldn't understand match about diversity

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Tbh someone who spams howling abyss and plays Ap supports/mages in SR wouldn't understand match about diversity

neither does someone who needs to check the match history of someone who doesn't play often and just plays to have fun

AggressiveWolf1 votes

{quoted}

neither does someone who needs to check the match history of someone who doesn't play often and just plays to have fun

Good argument

Dope Solo12 votes

Range versus melee is always a shit show.

Tormentula10 votes

I remember EliseNidalee top, these were not good times to be alive

######and i mained one of them

I'm fine with one champ being a counterpick (except when they're played for literally every other reason because players didn't understand why support MF was played), but it shouldn't counter this much.. top needs nerfs but vik is currently a massive issue in the way.

saltran8 votes

I played Nida ad top and I admit that it was 100% cancer

Ginjavitis9 votes

So what can us midlanders say about Irelia, Aatrox, and urgot mid? It’s a pain to play against but we change our play style because one of the main aspects of league is never having the same matchup and adapting. Mages top will poke you and push...but they’ll also be infinitely squishier than you and it’s not a 1v1 champ that can go toe to toe with a bruiser late game while someone is trying to split push. I play viktor mid and it’s a different build but I can easily be beat by certain champs as long as they’re not just going aggro because they don’t know how to play against the champ.

Pandemic Punch16 votes

Top laners can't impact the game at all if they are hard countered. Mid laners always have the option to roam top, bot, or with their jungler.

In top lane, you are trapped in the lane especially on blue side. You dont have the luxury of being able to leave the lane at a moment's notice because you have no ally to run to while the jungler works the bot side of the map.

All you can do is sit still and fall very far behind. If your team is unsuccessful on the bot side of the map while being trapped in a bad matchup, the entire match just feels like you wasted your time. If your bot lane is successful, then you have to pray that your team can absorb the enemy top laner's pressure long enough for you to catch back up. Most of the time your team can't because they will ignore all of your pings and overestimate what you are capable of due to their inability to understand the impact of a hard counter matchup in the top lane.

Stupafly1 votes

Thats true as mid you are center of your whole team so you can go around with teammates.

The opposite is also true.. you have to deal with the possibility anyone on their team can come at you.

Pandemic Punch1 votes

Yes, but with optimal map awareness, you can avoid most ganks as you will always have more than 1 way to escape.

CloakAndGrenade2 votes

Mid-laners don't usually have to front-line at all. Top laners are almost always in the thick of things, as comes with being melee. This means that a deficit in the top lane is far more devastating stat-wise for the top than the mid. Not to mention most mid-lane champs can farm the wave at a distance, another luxury that most top-lane picks don't have.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

There is a difference between a ranged mage that can farm safely and a bruiser that sits under turret loses all CS while getting poked down out of tower range. Like you guys simply don't understand the fundamentals of the game not even in the slightest and compare shit like playing a mage mid against aatrox with playing someone like darius into cassiopeia, ryze, viktor.

deadlychuck2 votes

Assassin mid does not create a diverse lane, AD melee mid never have.

Seriously, why is there defense over top lane being bullied out by some mages, but there's a complete disregard for how riot exiled mages out of mid by shoving assassins in.

Moody P7 votes

Because it's not true, and mages continue to be the safest picks in soloQ as well as the staples in competitive.

Yeah, assassins are annoying in soloQ and they certainly abuse certain matchups, but none of them actually bar you from playing mages and there's actually quite a few mages who inherently dumpster assassins - Lissandra with her emerging Aftershock build being a solid contender here.

Assassins also don't scale nearly as well as mages, whereas the mages who go top tend to scale better than the AD bruisers they try to share the lane with. That's my issue, right? I don't mind if they bully me, but I do mind that even if I play super well and don't get shit on, I still get outscaled. At least Talon falls off if you don't get cheesed by his level 2 and your bot doesn't feed him when he roams; Viktor isn't as courteous.

deadlychuck3 votes

Mages really don't scale better than any AD champion by nature of the stats.

At least not any of the current AD champions which overwhelmingly also scale their ability power with AD.

Mages tend to be necessary in soloQ, as a result of the biased damage typing which means that there's no other class which tends to dish out significant magic damage but every position expected to bring damage can easily be filled by numerous AD classes, meaning that having a single mage on your team is worth the enemy being stopped from stacking armor.

And very few mages actually dumpster assassins, by virtue of their inherent higher dependency on CDs, resource limitations, and riot's tendency to intentionally gut and rework mages which actively provide checks against mechanically heavy kit budgets (that assassins are the worst offenders).

So no, fuck off, if you are going to complain about mages shifting into top lane, then how about you just start taking your fucking bruisers mid, because all of the assassins that you have the advantage over are there anyway. Who goes into which position is just kind of a tradition thing, but there's no valid excuse for riot actively making terrible game design decision just to enforce that status quo selectively as they see fit.

Moody P3 votes

Mages scale better than AD assassins by virtue of utility and range.

yeah, Irelia's aids but she's aids because she's irelia. Urgot and Aatrox fall off quite hard particularly in solo play.

deadlychuck2 votes

AD assassins scale better than Mages by virtue of their ability to scale both their burst and sustained damage with a single stat, and then exonerate all expenses of defense into the mechanics of their kit. Which, for the record not only acts as a defensive measure, but also generally nullifies the range advantage. As well, the utility advantage is massively overplayed, given that virtually all utility that Mages get comes in the form of skillshot CCs, while assassins gain utility in the way of mechanical advantage of positioning and fight tempo.

Assassins inherently get to lead fights, because of how un-interactive they are in light of their time to kill.

Citavista1 votes

Lol in what universe do AD Assassins scale better. Mages throw out kill combos constantly while most Assassins throw away their escape and ult to pop a Lulu ult + shield on ADC then die a failure.

Stupafly1 votes

What about the mages that throw out their kill combo to pop a Lulu ult + shield on ADC then die a failure.

More from Gameplay

More by Moody P