Careful What You Wish For

Cats Are Food··13 votes·1,606 views

Despite the rantings and long, well thought out posts concerning various issues with champions and items... players get exactly what they ask for. Sadly, despite the idea that they have some form of knowledge on the outcome, they rarely want it once they have it. You see some fairly clever looking arguements about 'what the math says,' 'why the current Meta...,' and other such nonsense. While many of the arguements are good arguements, so do not mistake me... I am, in no way, saying the playerbase is stupid or lacks knowledge of the game. I am saying that none of us are omniscient, and therefore if we are going to argue for or against something... we might want to see where all that idea can lead. Some examples:

  • True Damage in any form drives up HP values across the board to survive it. When there is enough true damage, you get a tank meta because the only way to have enough HP is to begin buying tank items, as there are not enough that simply grant health. (I did not come up with this idea. The RIOT Development Team said this years ago concerning why they had removed all forms of scaling True Damage, and pushed it back to only three champions having it at the time.)

  • New Bruiser and Juggernaut items that amblify both aspects of their concept benefit champions who scale on one end or the other (damage or tankiness) more than it benefits those in the middle. This is beause it gives the polar opposits what they lack... sustainability to carries, damage to tanks. These two classes had adaptability as their strongest suit, able to delve into either massive damage or extreme toughness as each match demanded. At current they're obsolete because both carries and tanks do what they do, better.

  • High Mobility champions were all but demanded by the community, as RIOT adamantly argued that extreme mobility should be kept to very few champions. The community begged for more, got them, and now want to limit them again.


This is just a few examples. The point here is that the boards rage, scream, and beg for changes without looking at the very old patches, videos, and forum threads concerning the exact same issues, and why they were either argured for or against, even by RIOT Devs. This creates a cyclical series of problems, as all RIOT is doing is trying to keep their playerbase happy - but the playerbase has some ideas that have extremely unfortunate consequences that have been tried and tested before only to fail miserably. We've already seen that RIOT will go against it's better judgement on game changes if enough people ask for them.

What we need is the old boards archived and linked, so some of the younger players can see some of the old Dev Notes and debates that took place back in season 1 or older... as almost, almost, every issue facing the game now are issues that existed before - and like before the root problems are things we, the players, REALLY WANTED.

34 Comments

midnight oil2412 votes

It is amazing how people scream over the smallest things. Some people scream over not wanting dark champions, but when Riot puts out new Galio they scream about making a dark champion sound happy, and say he sounds like an idiot because of it.

People beg for aatrox changes, Riot makes changes so that aatrox can at least be buffed. People scream about it constantly.

THEY BEG FOR REVERTS TO REWORKS FROM YEARS AGO. WHY.

Cats Are Food7 votes

Because they've forgotten why those reworks took place.

midnight oil242 votes

Yeah. People need to think clearly sometimes, but they never do.

And then they start SCREAMING ABOUT HOW NEW GALIO SHOULD BE REVERTED TO OLD ONE. WORK WENT INTO NEW ONE. SUCK IT UP!

Sorry, it was a bad day yesterday and I'm still a little stressed.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Because they've forgotten why those reworks took place.

Well people usually have been asking for reverts since day 1 of almost every rework.

Cats Are Food1 votes

There are those of us who like champions as they are released and their math reworked for balance. The skill kit, play style, and such appeal to us. When the entire champion is reworked, it's style and concept changed, we feel like we lost a favored champion to a new release.

However asking for a revert is silly, so...

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

There are those of us who like champions as they are released and their math reworked for balance. The skill kit, play style, and such appeal to us. When the entire champion is reworked, it's style and concept changed, we feel like we lost a favored champion to a new release.

However asking for a revert is silly, so...

Well for the most part, Riot entirely kills off champions when reworking them. Then builds a new champion with a different role, a different strategy, and a different personality.

Cats Are Food1 votes

That's my point lol.

Sassmast3r3 votes

but Karma 's fans though (;-; )

Cats Are Food1 votes

I... I think Karma should have stayed a support. She is almost an APC now with vast utility.

Cats Are Food1 votes

But that is just me. She is a pretty good APC. I'm more worried about the buffed Sona.

MisterShameless1 votes

When you say "Should have stayed as a support." Do you refer to her before the rework (patch 3.05) or what became of her from patch 5.10 or when she became meta (patch 6.6)?

Cats Are Food2 votes

I'm a conservative. I liked the original Karma after her damages had been rebalanced a bit. She had multiple capabilities, without being ridiculously oppressive.

OverpoweredSoap4 votes

{quoted}

but Karma 's fans though (;-; )

Karma's rework was more for testing the waters for future reworks and seeing how much they could get away with honestly. (I'm not saying this out of spite, but its really how it felt)

Chaos Milk Tea12 votes

Oh man, its almost like you have to study game design to design games.

Cats Are Food7 votes

I know. It's weird.

Limmie1 votes

Nah I've modded a player home in Skyrim once, I'm more than qualified.

BabeisBae2 votes

Okay so I would agree with all of this, because everything that you have said is correct, HOWEVER, Riot does have the ability to patch weekly. You can gut a champions mobility, or an item's ability to provide tank stats. Or just completely nerf true damage because it is not a healthy mechanic. Everyone has been asking for nerfs to Yasuo for years, and nothing has happened other than minor changes to remove a tank build. But the reality is, simply reworking the W so it only takes either 5 shots or a certain amount of damage is enough to nerf him into a healthy place, he just right now has too much utility for an assassin. The kog'maw revert was actually the dumbest thing i have ever seen ever. Could have just nerfed on hit items, instead just completely gutted the champion until buffing him 4 weeks later to semi-viability.

Let me ask you this, why hasn't immolate passive been nerfed? It is honestly too much but hasnt been touched. Lets look at tanks base damages over the last 2 years, oh wait hasnt been touched. If a champion gets out of control cough LUCIAN cough, you hotfix it by nerfing numbers immediately. If an item is being built first buy in every matchup, you nerf it next patch without question cough SUNFIRE CAPE cough. But none of this happens. Instead we wait like 2-3 months for any changes to something broken. Remember Tank Ekko? I do, it was the worst 3 months of my top lane maining life, and i moved to jungle because of it. We aren't even gonna bring up graves because i think the PBE change is actually enough to bring him down, but he was #1 jungler for 8 months, cmon.

In final, I really don't care if they do whatever they want to the game as a whole. Like bring new items, rework things, add new champs, but make sure that your game is being balanced on a solid basis. Because one patch every 2 weeks that barely covers anything and just uncovers more problems than it fixes isnt working. And they are not responding to the community with their buffs or nerfs, simply just going off of a win rate number. You can tell because Fizz is toxic to play against, not overpowered just toxic, and nothing has been done about him.

Cats Are Food1 votes
  • Yasuo does need to have his Wind Wall mechanic setup like any other wall mechanic. As it stands he is the only one with an immortal wall. That's just me though.

  • Immolate used to Stack. Just saying. Most people weren't around when Tiamat both stacked, and was a lifesteal item... and procced on Garen's spin. The damage of Immolate is not so bad, though it would be nice for it to scale per level, or have the health (or armor. Make it one or the other) removed from Sunfire Cape so that this stops being a End All tank item.

  • On Hit items have been nerfed. They then buffed Nashor's Tooth... for some reason. Everyone seemed to think this item was fine before.

The Sword Saint1 votes

There's only a couple of walls that you can break. You can't break anivia, taliyah, trundle, j4, etc. terrain.

Cats Are Food1 votes

These walls do not effectively cancel out everything on the other side of them. They are merely blocks. I could have worded that better in the intial comment.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Neither do the breakable walls you are talking about.

Also windwall doesn't block everything. Melee attacks and non non projectile spells go right through.

Cats Are Food1 votes

Right, and that's the rub. He can remove the ADC, and most mages, completely from a fight for as long as it takes his team to kill your initiator. Other walls split your team, stop your escape, etc... but you can still have an effect from both sides. These forms of wall allow a massive deal of control, even without negating things outside of them.

Yasuo negates most of your team in a team fight, while he and his team are often on his side of it and presently murdering someone. You can get through or around his wall, but a singled out team mate or two are simply dead, as it takes less than 3 seconds to masacare whatever was on his side of the wall. It has no down side, unlike other walls. Examples:

  • Anivia not only splits their team, but also limits the mobility of her own. (Yasuo's wall in no way hinders mobility)
  • Jarvan isn't only capable of trapping enemy team members, but unless very careful he traps his own as well. Again mobility loss for both sides.
  • Even Terrain does not stop projectiles, allowing those with them to influence fighting.
  • Braum - a tank designed on this premise, loses his wall to damage.

His wall has every strength it needs to shut off the skills, auto attacks, and numerous ultimates... with zero mobility loss, and no way to remove the wall. You have to cease activity (think Cait, who also just failed with one or two abilities, most likely her ultimate) who now must effectively stop fighting to move past the wall. His team is not hindered in the same way.

Cost vs Benefit - his wall is pure benefit with zero draw back. This is also on an extremely high damaging champion who enjoys natural toughness, mobility, and control even without this ability.

All that said, I don't really have a huge issue with Yasuo. Then again I don't really play ADCs.

The Sword Saint1 votes

That just means yasuo is weak to a combination of poke and engage since he has to either not use his windwall on poke because then he wouldn't have it for the engage you're talking about, or windwall the poke and not have it up atferwords for an engagement.

You just have to play around it the same as any other ability rather than just ignoring that it exists and playing like you would when its not there.

Cats Are Food1 votes

It's only abusive feature is when it can simply negate three ultimates... in a basic ability... and yet still be stopping punishment. You can make it absorb a certain number of hits like Yorick's new little wall. This stll allows him to block an ultimate or two, or poke, etc... but not everything for it's duration.

Having just thought about it... if there was ANY delay what so ever to the wall it would be more balanced, but as it stands the effect is instant - taking effect even before the animation completes. This lets him shut down basically most ultimate in the game delivered by an ADC or APC.

Cowseed2 votes

I'm just gonna say this and be blunt. The boards is full of a bunch of circle-jerking jackasses. Perfect example of this is the fact that people were asking for a god damn defensive item be nerfed, item 3047 when at the time the same flipping people were saying that lethality, AN AD AMPLIFIER, was busted.

To put it in perspective it would almost be like the government decreasing the availability of water because forest fires were becoming frequent. It pains me the most that people circle-jerk more for upvotes than because they care about the actual problem. Like when people were bitching about riven's CC cancelling. Despite the fact that about 100% of them never experienced it in a game.

Cats Are Food1 votes

I am not going to disagree with you what so ever. I'm going to be evasive and diplomatic for balance. Thus... you're right.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Being Careful

Boards

choose one, and yes, I dusted all of your fandrals.

YoungSirJ0ey1 votes

What the fuck is a fandral?

GULAG 4 U1 votes

So there are 'choose one cards' in hearthstone. Fandral allows you to choose both options. To the smartasses that think their fandral joke was unexpected.

DeathBot6661 votes
Cats Are Food1 votes

Nope. The original boards.

To clarify the archives are of the second rendition of the forums. Yes, however, the archives contain much of what I'm talking about, but most people don't ever find them.

Cats Are Food1 votes

Though I did find my first post as TGY lol. Back in 07-12-2010. The good old days.

OtterlyLost1 votes

On the Kog'maw revert, I actually agreed with that. What they had reworked Kog'maw into(5.0 AS and all) was unhealthy for the game and encouraged the wrong kind of playing in my opinion. I never did well with the "broken" reworked Kog'maw because I'm a twitchy player. I like to attack move; it feels rewarding to do it well. On reworked Kog, however, you were actively punished for trying to as it greatly decreased your DPS. So at that point, your literal only option was to just stand there and hope to god that you killed everyone before your CD's were down. :/ Its not intuitive gameplay and isn't how an ADC or a teamfight should work.

It honestly never made sense to me that they reworked Kog'maw. He had a low player base specifically because of his kit and the nature of him; he was only playable on teams that were specifically built around keeping him safe. The original Kog'maw was a ticking timebomb who spiked hard late game and if they had a good team and good positioning, they destroyed everyone. I feel like they did goof up in how they reverted him, however. He's not exactly like he was before. They didn't change his ult back exactly the way it was before and his W costs mana now when before it never did.

Cats Are Food1 votes

Bump from two years ago. Warned you, again.

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