Why do people complain Lee sin is op?

Mody bird·Mar 28, 2016·1 votes·579 views

46% win rate WAIT hold your downvotes. Some of you might say high skill cap but Lee sins with 150+ games barely have a 50% winrate

This applies to plat+

4 Comments

OverpoweredSoapMar 28, 20163 votes

Play percentage comes in as a factor.

High Skill cap + 21.53% playrate pretty much means he should have a lower winrate.

I don't think he's overpowered atm (for once in a good while tbh) but he's still irritating depending on what teammates and enemies you get.

The boards also hate Lee Sin (for a good enough reason imo) so, there's that factor.

SlythionMar 28, 20161 votes

I've been matched against plats/diamonds recently (don't ask me why I'm definitely not good enough for that shiz) and let me tell you he is a bich to deal with considering my main junglers are Amumu and Shyvana . These Lee's aren't the same as the bronze/silver Lee's I'm used to dealing with xD

On a side note: Despite how annoying he is I really don't view him as op. He has the potential of carrying a game, but you need a respectable amount of skill to pull it off in these higher elos

MarshbouyMar 28, 20161 votes

he has a lot of annoying mobility... and also the boards hate anything that challenges their current circlejerk

ValexforMar 28, 20161 votes

Always the same question: Too much damage, too many tools, his ult is just straight up broken. I would be fine with him if he actually NEEDED to be particularly good with his tools, but as things are right now he's got too much hidden power for the actual power of his kit.

What I actually ask of riot isn't much just some of these: remove the first stun from his ult and also lower a bit the displacement, give him some form of sustain that isnt free lifesteal + spellvamp, nerf either the base damage or the scaling of his ult, nerf his first and second q base damage while buffing a bit the %missing health on the second one.

Right now if you wat to be good on Lee Sin you need to know how to play around your Q (so pretty much know how to either land a skillshot in melee range and give some aa + skill + aa + ult before pressing it again, or to use your q as an engage then fight the enemy a bit and ult them when the q cd is up and follow, not so hard) and how to use your dash on wards/allies (so smartcast it and you will never miss). Your ult should be a disruption tool to ensure your full combo and dish out some good damage but right now it's just a fuck you button which wins a trade for free or ensures and escape with no counterplay and high nuking potential (one of the strongest ults in the game by sheer damage and utility, other strong ults usually have some conditioning to them to either be used or at least deal the full damage, his ult just need you to stay in the range). What do you pay for this power?: 20 games, 30 if you suck and 50 if you have just no hope and can't land a skillshot on a still target in melee range. You don't need 150 games to learn lee, you need 50 in the worst case and his performance is still pretty good even before that if you're not braindead (remember that there are a lot of people that after one year of playing still tower dive 1 vs 3 alone at level 1, those players only play flashy champs for the flashyness and will never do anything good with them, they are the ones who bring lee's winrate under 50%). His winrate in plat+ is not so high since people tend to actually look at the map so they usually pressure something else when he's near a lane. But that is not enough counterplay: Nocturne can ult you from more than 3000 units (seem op right?) but you can still flash his ult and make his engage go to waste if he's got no support from the laners, on the other hand lee can just come bot and get a double by himself since once he catches you, his low cd and high damage will not let you get away before you're dead, even when you're a tank.

What can be done to balance lee out?

Remove the first stun from his ult and lower the knockback distance: His first ult tun makes his ult impossible to juke, unless the lee player is an idiot since you can't react to it, one he presses the button you're done unless you have qss AND a spellshied, and usually no normal person is fast enough to use them both before the ult lands. Also his knockback is the longest of the game: even tristana's ult has less knockback (1000 against 1200) and that ult knockback it's already enough to disrupt ANYONE from chasing her down if played the smart way;
Lower his Ult damage: his ult has both the highest base and the highest scaling ad damage of the game right? Too strong for it's utility. Lower one of them or even both but make it that knocking an enemy into an ally also damages the first champ AGAIN for half the damage he deals to his ally: incredibly strong if it hits more than one, still strong but not unbearable if you're in a 1 vs 1;
Change his W sustain: Free LS and Spellvamp are a bad idea on most champs, olaf can have them since he's immobile and is almost full melee and his only cc is a slow which is easy to dodge, on lee on the other hand who has strong mobility, low cds and high base damage it's just toxic, also 25% means that even by building Titanic Hydra into Black Cleaver into full tank you will still do considerable damage (thanks to both the build's damage and your high base and scales) while out-sustaining most enemies whic was bad before when titanic wasn't in te game and he built ravenous, but it's even worse now since he's more tanky and does the same damage. Change it to something like Irelia's Hiten strike but a bit stronger (maybe 12/16/20/24/28 with 1 extra hp for every 100 total ad AND ap since I like the double scaling ok?) that works like his actual W: on both skills (spellvamp) and aa (lifesteal). this way if he doesn't build sustain he won't get too much of it by simply having free LS + SV, it also makes far more thematic sense to me;
Lower his base damage on both q but buff his %missing health: ok this one is a power shift to make good lee sins even more outstanding than bad ones (lee is supposedly one of the HARDEST champions right?) by reducing his base damage lee will lose upfront damage, meaning a badly played q will do far less damage, but will give him more hidden damage (I say hidden but it's more like potential tha hidden) damage, meaning that a well played one will hurt much more.

I'm not asking to nerf his mobility, it's useless since riot won't do it (too flashy to remove and also I gotta admit lee does seem incredibly fu nto play thanks to the number of plays he can pull), but they can at least balance the rest right?. I explained what every "nerf" (read rebalance) will "affect" (balance) and most of them actually won't be felt by good lee players, with what I am suggesting lee might become even stronger:

The q %missing health damage buff would cover for the loss of damage elsewhere (both on the ult and on the q itself) and also outscale it on low health opponents (a bit of an overkill but oh well) but he won't be able to poke with q as efficiently as before since he will do less damage if he doesn't commit to it;
The removal of the ult's first stun would be just a QoL change: that first stun has far too strong no matter how you look at it, it just erases any counterplay you might try unless you're good (and fast) enough to use (and waste) both a qss and a spellshield for one skill so it's kind of a nerf, but it has to be done;
The sustain change: a buff to his sustain (usually flat recovery is better than %damage recovery early since you won't need a lot of damage to feel it) in the earlier stages of the game where lee is already so strong and dominant, but a fall off later (he's supposed to fall off late game anyway) when lee will have access to other forms of sustain, more damage and more tankyness depending on what he will build. This sustain is not strong enough to compete with sustains like Xin's or Aatrox's or WW's later in the game, but lee is not supposed to be able to in the first place unless he is building for it, unlike he's doing live. Also this would proc off of devourer making devourer a bit more viable on lee (we want more item diversity right rito?) to some degree.

If someone wants to ask: why do they feel like just nerfs? Because lee is balancing them out with almost unlimited resources, low cd, high damage and outplay potential. His kit it's not toxic per se, but the way it works is toxic right now, there is a reason why we see lee in competitive pro play so much, and that's because they actually tend to play the best champs they can fit into a comp, and lee fits every comp since he can solo carry, can tank, can pressure everywhere easily and can do so since early in the game, he's also good at dueling and won't lose to ranged thanks to his mobility, also lee does not fall off late game, it feels like he does sicne he start to build tanky, but an assassin lee doesn't fall and instead snowballs far heavyer than a vayne/twitch/kog easily killing an enemy with a q + q + ult combo with no thunderlord (this combo can deal 170 + 180 + 180 + 170 + 800 + 400 with only 200 bonus ad which is 1900 in raw damage and can be done at level 16, it's enough to kill ANY carry since most of them have less than 2000 max hp even at level 18 and I didn't account for the extra 8% missing health damage in).