Ranked Teambuilder - you've GOT to be kidding me

ValyrianBlade··1 votes·1,324 views

So, according to "Riot plz", Riot's new quarterly development blog, they're aiming to move all of ranked over to teambuilder at the start of the 2016 season. Thankfully, they're at least making one change - you'll be picking two roles (one of which can be 'fill').

That said, I think this is a HUGE mistake.

Yes, I'll be the first to admit, it SUCKS when you get a person on your team who can either only play 1 role, or even can't play 1 specific role and gets stuck there, then proceeds to feed in a bad role and costs you the game. Sure, that sucks. And that's pretty much exactly why teambuilder should NEVER have existed in the first place. You shouldn't be able to get to level 30 without knowing how to play every role. You shouldn't be playing ranked at all if you can't play certain roles.

To make ranked move over to teambuilder punishes EVERYONE who doesn't constrain themselves to 1 or 2 roles.

Take my playstyle for instance. My BEST role is jungle. Go ahead and take a look at my match history, do you notice something? If I'm playing jungle, I'm only playing Hecarim. I've chosen 1 jungle champion (at the time I chose to do that, Hecarim was never banned and picked in fewer than 0.5% of my games ignoring my picks, this was mid season 4). You know what happens when Hecarim gets picked/banned? I go a different role. So now, what's my option when I queue in as jungler and Hecarim gets picked or banned? That's a pretty unfair change in my opinion.

The same pretty much applies to mid lane for me, I almost exclusively play Ahri (and have since mid season 4, I started playing mid season 4 btw). What happens if I queue up for mid and Ahri gets picked/banned? At least I have some experience with LB and TF but still, I'm going to be just as weak as those players getting stuck in their off roles above.

In the current style of the game, draft mode, my strategy works wonderfully. I have 1 jungle champion that I wreck with. I have 1 mid laner that I (aside from when I haven't played in a while as it's difficult to get practice mid upon return) do pretty consistently well with. I have a small selection of ADCs that I do fairly consistently well with. I have a small selection of supports that I can hold my own with. I have a small selection of top laners that I can hold my own with.

I get to fill for what my team needs, I get to play a champion I know and like, I get to practice a variety of roles and experience the whole game, and I do well in the majority of my games regardless of where I'm playing. All while only really having played a significant number of games on only 3 champions, and having at least a handful of games on probably a total of 12 champions.

After this sort of a change? I get to queue for Jungle/ADC or Jungle/Mid or Mid/ADC, and then if I get assigned to Jungle/Mid I have to clench really hard and hope that Hecarim/Ahri isn't picked/banned and dodge whenever it happens (which, after their season 5 reworks buffed both of them, will probably be reasonably often). Oh, and I'll never play top or support and will gradually forget how those roles are played and thus will become a worse player overall because I can't anticipate what the players in those roles will do when I try to gank for them or something.

I don't know, this is getting pretty long and winded, but I just DON'T GET IT.

Why fix what isn't broken?

Why change something that's only going to move where the problem is rather than eliminate it altogether?

Why put us through the huge queue times that will arise as a result of no one wanting to play support in low-medium elo?

People don't snowball so hard or feed so hard because someone is in their off role and just doesn't have a clue. They snowball because it's easy to pressure a lead and most players suck at playing from behind in anything but the best circumstances. They snowball because if they were enough better than you to get a lead over you in the first place, they're going to still be better than you and have the advantage of more gold to increase that lead.

All this change is going to do is make players who have spent time learning a few champions in their off-roles lose the value of that effort, and force them to learn more champions in their main roles in case their favourites are picked/banned.

If you're set on doing this, at least just make it that you can say "I don't want this 1 role" and need to be willing to do the other 4. Although I really wish you'd just reconsider as a whole. This is a waste of effort on your end and will burden a lot of players who have embraced the current system on our end.

13 Comments

joebobby14128 votes

Okay, seriously though. You criticize people who play only 1 or 2 roles, but then you admit you only play 1 champion in each role. Like, you realize that is WAY worse right? At least when you only play 1 role you can still pick to fit your team and counter the enemy. When you only play 1 champion in each role you will literally be ruining your own chances in lane, and/or your team's synergy. I suppose you could be so self-centered as to insist that your team build around the 1 champion you play, but I think we can all agree even if you asked they wouldn't be able to comply.

Balisan1 votes

It is actually not a bad idea for someone to suggest that others choose champions for a cohesive strategy. For example:

Heimerdinger "Hey guys I'm going Heimer mid, let's try a poke+dive comp." Malphite "K I'll go malphite support." Yasuo "Yasuo bot maybe, would need some range for poke still." Karma "karma top, much poke, very Q" Garen "going jung"

^ Fairly well-rounded team with a fair amount of poke and dive potential combined with Heimer's abilities to shove a lane like a maniac and zone out hard engages.

joebobby14121 votes

I'm not saying comps are bad, or that cooperation is impossible. I'm saying that in solo queue communication and cooperation are especially difficult. And, honestly, if you are anything less than gold you probably should actually ignore any team comp in favor of playing a champion you are familiar with in a role you are confident in.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

It isn't, you're completely wrong; it's much better.

Firstly, I've chosen champions that work well in most / all team comps. Most champions actually fulfill this. It's not like I've chosen an AD mid laner as my exclusive mid laner and will thus put my teams in all AD comps frequently. My jungler can be built damage or tank, and can initiate or peel. They work in all comps and they have no real counters (again, most champions don't have true counters). It's no different than picking a champion early, first or second pick. Doesn't matter how many champions you play, if you're picking early you don't know your team's comp yet AND your opponent can counter you.

"At least when you only play 1 role you can still pick to fit your team and counter the enemy." Really? You only play mid, you're 4th pick. First pick also only plays mid. How are you going to help your team? Mid is taken, you're garbage elsewhere. Same goes for any role. You don't even need to have someone else on the team that only plays that role, just an earlier pick who wants to play that role that game. Doesn't matter if you've mastered 30 champions in your main role, if that role is taken by a teammate you're costing your team.

I have 1 go-to jungler, 1 go-to mid-laner (with 2 reasonable back-ups), 3 go-to ADCs (with 2 reasonable backups), 3 reasonable supports (with 2 reasonable backups), and 2 reasonable top laners (with 3 reasonable back ups). I can carry my team with my 1 jungler. Regardless of team and regardless of enemy, I win games as Hecarim jungle. Same went for Ahri mid when I played frequently, although after a 7 week break it's taking a while to get mid-mechanics back.

The reason the strategy works is because I'm an ADC main who just happens to be better at jungle if I get a specific champion and equally good at mid if I get a specific champion. I.e. I can do just as well as any 1-role player when I pick adc, but by focusing on 1 champion in my next two preferred roles I've actually played those individual champions more than I've played any ADC and thus am better with them than I am in my main role. And the strategy works exceptionally under leagues current format. It goes to shit if they make ranked teambuilder.

joebobby14121 votes

Alright, so for everything other than jungle and mid, which you seemed to push as your mains, you have a fair selection of champs. So, setting that aside, I replied the the other reply I got about the comps. And mention below gold a comp doesn't matter as much as playing something you are good at. As well, I've made comments on other posts about how I think low level players should have a go-to champion. If you always play Hecarim and he never gets banned, great. However, I do think that having something, anything as a backup in case he get's picked, or banned that you can play decently and not feed with is necessary.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was more just a misunderstanding than it was bragging about your unique style of play.

That being said, you compare it to have limited roles, which while relevant to Team Builder, doesn't hold up when you consider that Ideally you learn to play every champion and every role. Realistically you should still be able to play every role relatively well and be pretty intimately familiar with 2 or 3 in each. So, while you are presumably finding success right now with how you play, you should be able to recognize it's not as good as you act like it is.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

It's not that I don't have other junglers that I can choose in the off-chance that happens (which will be what, 1 in 500 games where I can't go mid/adc/top/supp and hecarim is banned/picked). I mean, I own Jarvan 4, Vi, Maokai and have played bot games and ARAMs with all of them. I just literally have never played them on Summoners Rift because it's never required - I'm always able to pick Hecarim or go with another role.

I wouldn't say it's a unique style of play. A lot of upper-level players suggest having 2 main roles with about 5 champions in each, and 2 go-to champions in your 3 off roles. I've got one main role with about 5 champions, 2 other roles that I can play better than my main role with a specific champion and a couple other options if everything goes to shit, and 2 off-roles with a few comfort picks.

The point I'm making is that in about 600 games, I've not once ever had to go someone other than Hecarim jungle. I've had to go Twisted Fate mid twice and LB mid about 6 times (which was after the Ahri compensation and I prepared for LB mid at that point). It's fairly predictable if your main champion is going to get picked/banned. Admittedly those games are normal, I've played very little ranked because as I was about to get back in to it I had my computer in repairs for 7 weeks and obviously when I get it back I need to practice back up, but in my limited ranked experience it isn't much different.

I think my biggest concern though, is that allowing people to choose just 2 roles will limit most players to only EVER playing two roles. I don't want a jungler on my team that has never played top or support or adc (and only plays jungle and mid). Same for a mid laner. Neither will know when their allies need ganks/roams regardless of whether it's the best move for them. I have my greatest success on Hecarim when I do a full clear on 1 health pot then base, but since I've played some top I know when my top laner needs an early gank and use that second health pot to give him a gank after my clear instead. If I never played top, I wouldn't know when my top laner was in trouble and I'd instead give up first blood before I even attempted a gank anywhere on the map.

JAGMAG1 votes

i pointed this out when the idea was first talked about you will end up with a guy that can only play 1-2 champs in the role hes selected and it will get banned or picked and he will be like herp a derp i cant play my role now

Shroom Junkie1 votes

So you insult people for not being able to play every role, yet you can't even do multiple people for a role? Well, pray to the lord you don't play Tryndamere top, else you'll just be counterpicked by Teemo or Pantheon every time and be bullied like a bitch.

Seriously, if you're going to complain about not being able to play every role, you should be able to have a large champion set of one role. At the very least 4 or 5. As a bit of a newbie and not one that has a lot of champions, I still prioritize filling out my roles with champs I like. Top? Well fuck this I love that lane, I can't tell you how many people I play there. Jungle? Evelynn, Gragas, Nidalee, some Hecarim. Mid? Rumble, Akali, Cho'gath, some Yasuo ADC? Lucian, Ashe, Jinx, Kalista Support? Shen, Soraka, Nautilus, still looking to fill in a few more.

I've been playing this game for about 7 months now and I have over 20 different champs I'm good at. When the fuck did you start playing?

ValyrianBlade1 votes

I'm not about to read through my entire post again, but I don't recall insulting anyone. I just said they should learn other roles, they shouldn't play ranked with only 1 role. That's not how solo-queue was meant to be, I'm not the first person to say any of that stuff.

I do have a set of 5 champions in ADC. And then I play Hecarim exclusively in jungle because there's never a reason to pick anyone else, and because of that actually do better in that scenario than I do in ADC. Same pretty much applies to Ahri mid. You want a full champion list? Fine:

Top: Hecarim, Kayle, Maokai, Jarvan 4, Jax Jungle: Hecarim, Jarvan 4, Vi, Kayle, Eve, Jax Mid: Ahri, LB, TF ADC: Jinx, Caitlyn, Tristana, Ashe, Sivir, Kalista Support: Leona, Morgana, Janna, Taric, Alistar

But it doesn't matter. If you play 20 champions regularly, odds are you aren't good at any of them. About 85% of my games are Hecarim Jungle, Ahri mid, or Jinx/Caitlyn adc. A decent portion of the remainder are one of the other ADCs or one of the supports. Sure, there will be games where I'm playing a champion I don't play often and won't do as well, but in the vast majority of my games I will do extremely well because I'm on a champion I've practiced a lot.

The other thing is - if I'm an early pick I'm getting Hecarim jungle or Ahri mid, or one of my ADCs if my team needs it. There aren't counters to those picks (the adcs a bit actually, which is where I have variety...). Moreover, if a teammate needs that role I can open it for them, whereas a 1-role player can't. Of course it would be better to have my hecarim-level of proficiency on every champion in the game (or 5 in each role at least), but that's just not practical. It would take me about 5 years of playing to get that many games on 25 different champions.

If I'm getting stuck top or support, I'm a late pick. Thus I can see my opponent and get a slight edge with a semi-counter pick (i don't believe in true counters) to make up for the lack of practice there. It's not great, but it's much better to have 2 off-roles than 4.

And to answer your question anyways, I started playing a year ago. I've played about 600-700 games total. Probably not nearly as much as you've played in 7 months, but I don't know.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not about to read through my entire post again, but I don't recall insulting anyone. I just said they should learn other roles, they shouldn't play ranked with only 1 role. That's not how solo-queue was meant to be, I'm not the first person to say any of that stuff.

Sorry, I didn't mean insulting. I meant... mmm - what's the word? - ... antagonizing? Not quite sure, I have it in the back of my head.

I do have a set of 5 champions in ADC. And then I play Hecarim exclusively in jungle because there's never a reason to pick anyone else, and because of that actually do better in that scenario than I do in ADC. Same pretty much applies to Ahri mid. You want a full champion list? Fine:

Top: Hecarim, Kayle, Maokai, Jarvan 4, Jax Jungle: Hecarim, Jarvan 4, Vi, Kayle, Eve, Jax Mid: Ahri, LB, TF ADC: Jinx, Caitlyn, Tristana, Ashe, Sivir, Kalista Support: Leona, Morgana, Janna, Taric, Alistar

Okay, that clarifies things a lot more. Obviously you have a main as well as a main for each role, but you spoke of it as if those were your only champs for the roles, not even counting champs you're average at.

But it doesn't matter. If you play 20 champions regularly, odds are you aren't good at any of them. About 85% of my games are Hecarim Jungle, Ahri mid, or Jinx/Caitlyn adc. A decent portion of the remainder are one of the other ADCs or one of the supports. Sure, there will be games where I'm playing a champion I don't play often and won't do as well, but in the vast majority of my games I will do extremely well because I'm on a champion I've practiced a lot.

Well, you can still interchange and be good at them. Maybe not as good as if you played one champion solely, or as good as your main(mine is Rumble, and I'm a hellalot better with him than other champs), but you can still be good at them, if not just average or above-average and not total crap.

The other thing is - if I'm an early pick I'm getting Hecarim jungle or Ahri mid, or one of my ADCs if my team needs it. There aren't counters to those picks (the adcs a bit actually, which is where I have variety...). Moreover, if a teammate needs that role I can open it for them, whereas a 1-role player can't. Of course it would be better to have my hecarim-level of proficiency on every champion in the game (or 5 in each role at least), but that's just not practical. It would take me about 5 years of playing to get that many games on 25 different champions.

Now I'll agree that one role isn't very good, and that maining a certain champion or set of champions would make you a lot better at them than if you had five per role, but as you'd also said its great to have more champions available to fill out the role of tank or damage, AP or AD, all-in and poke, etc., and having a large set to fill in those roles but only playing them moderately can sometimes be a bigger part to the team than playing one role greatly, yet your whole team being squishy af, or not having enough damage, or being completely vulnerable to an all-in or too much poke.

And to answer your question anyways, I started playing a year ago. I've played about 600-700 games total. Probably not nearly as much as you've played in 7 months, but I don't know.

Not that its relevant, but I've played about 500-600 games of SR, and 50-100 or so of ARAM, plus maybe 20-ish Dominion(though most were playing a test match to see if I'd still get bots every time), and only one or two of Twisted Treeline, plus probably 50-100 of bonus modes(URF, Hexakill, and Black Market Brawlers).

yeah i have no life :3

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Haha :)

Yes, by good i probably mean your Rumble -level proficiency. I just think it makes sense to have that proficiency in 3 champions in 3 different roles rather than all 3 in one role.

It also makes sense from the perspective that if you need to pick an off-champion in a role you're already good at, you'll do a lot better than if you need to go to an off -role.

I probably made the OP pretty terribly. My hope was to point out that: A) people wouldn't sympathize with one-role players because I'm pointing out that you can main just as few champions and play multiple roles B) people would realize the change won't solve the problem of skill discrepancy, because people in off roles will be replaced by people with picked/banned champion pools within a role. C) and most importantly that playing all roles makes you better in any role - a good jungler needs to know each of the lane match ups. A good top laner needs to know when their bot Lane needs a tele gank. A good mid needs to know when and where to roam. A good adc/supp need to know their partner as well as when to roam mid and when to help defend their jungler from invades. You can learn a bit from playing those experiences, but you'll learn it a lot better by playing those other roles. It's a lot easier to understand why pantheon will crush your tryndamere top and will need an early gank if you actually have played top Lane.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Haha :)

Yes, by good i probably mean your Rumble -level proficiency. I just think it makes sense to have that proficiency in 3 champions in 3 different roles rather than all 3 in one role.

It also makes sense from the perspective that if you need to pick an off-champion in a role you're already good at, you'll do a lot better than if you need to go to an off -role.

I probably made the OP pretty terribly. My hope was to point out that: A) people wouldn't sympathize with one-role players because I'm pointing out that you can main just as few champions and play multiple roles B) people would realize the change won't solve the problem of skill discrepancy, because people in off roles will be replaced by people with picked/banned champion pools within a role. C) and most importantly that playing all roles makes you better in any role - a good jungler needs to know each of the lane match ups. A good top laner needs to know when their bot Lane needs a tele gank. A good mid needs to know when and where to roam. A good adc/supp need to know their partner as well as when to roam mid and when to help defend their jungler from invades. You can learn a bit from playing those experiences, but you'll learn it a lot better by playing those other roles. It's a lot easier to understand why pantheon will crush your tryndamere top and will need an early gank if you actually have played top Lane.

Dr Poro1 votes

I would love to see improvements to Teambuilder, but I don't think it's fit for ranked. As you said, all roles are part of the game. While pros play only one role, they do it with their team. You can also play 5v5 TEAM if you want to do so. I hope that filling will give you some advantage over picking roles (like more MMR gain), because otherwise it's just stupid to do so.

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