Surrender Voting: As a system it could - and should - be better...

HalcyonDweller··22 votes·1,252 views

Introduction

Matches snowball, tensions run high, and players can become upset feeling they have no agency either over the match itself, or over a surrender vote. Players don't like feeling trapped, but it's also unfair to their teammates to let them just drop out if the team genuinely wants to keep trying.

A lot of this can be chalked up to player issues, and it's easy to write it off as that and drop it at that. But I think that the way Surrenders are implemented, they aren't as fair for all persons involved as they could be. There are better ways that surrendering could be handled, and some of them even have precedent in the game already.

1. The Time-Scaling Surrender

First of all I want to point out how the early surrender requires a unanimous surrender, while a surrender post-20-minutes requires a majority of 4. This gives the agency to each player to avoid a surrender even if the majority of the team wants to give up, so that said players who want to try still have a chance to push through for 5 more minutes to try to eek out some advantage or inspiration for their team.

You can probably already see where I'm going with this. It's not a radical change, but rather - it is a logical extension of the same system: Why not lower the number of people required to surrender only at specific points later in the game?

For example at the 30 minute mark, reduce it to a majority of 3 instead of a majority of 4. That way if the game is dragging on and players are demoralized, they can surrender more easily after having played long enough to see if a comeback is possible or not. The important thing is giving them the agency to over-rule the minority of 2 who keep voting against them, provided that the game has gone on long enough.

I know it wouldn't end toxicity. That would be naive to think, but I hypothesize that this would reduce toxicity because players would not feel as trapped as they currently do if a couple of teammates keep voting down surrenders, because they will - at some point in the future - get more agency over their surrender vote. They won't feel as helpless, and thus they will have less reason to lash out at their teammates.

2. The (Dis)advantage Scaling Surrender

I haven't put as much thought into this one but it might, might work, provided that abuse cases are accounted for and handled/prevented appropriately. I understand that this comes with it's own host of problems which is why I'm mostly just bringing it up for a thought experiment and for discussion's sake, rather than as an actual proposal.

Reduce the majority needed to succeed in a surrender vote based on how much of a greater advantage the enemy team has over the team voting to surrender. This could be made to scale with gold advantage, objective scores (like number of towers or neutral objectives collected), or team deaths.

Now obviously this would have abuse cases, so either extreme countermeasures would be needed, or a more aggressive form of punishment would need to be implemented, for abusers who intentionally feed or throw in order to increase that disadvantage and make the surrender vote easier. Countermeasures could include things like, "the players with the worst scores cannot call surrender votes, or cannot count towards the reduced majority required to succeed in a surrender."

Conclusion

So that's it, one idea that I'm confident would be fair for most individuals, and another - more extreme - idea in order to spark discussion and provoke unique ideas.

Share your thoughts or ideas in the comments, and if you like either idea please upvote the thread to help the ideas gain more visibility so we can get even more people involved in the discussion.

22 Comments

Leonerdo10 votes

Personally, I don't like these particular ideas. I think they push surrendering in the wrong ways. But I do think surrender voting could benefit from a little tweaking.

Time-scaling Surrender just results in ending games at an arbitrary time when neither group (those who want to surreneder and those who want to keep playing) is happy. I'd actually prefer there to be no difference between a 15- and 20-minute surrender vote. It's just really silly to have 4 people vote Yes at 15 minutes and think, "Well, okay, so this is over, but we have to wait 5 more minutes until the surrender vote passes. Guess I'll just goof off (feed) until then." Whether a unanimous vote or a 4-man vote should be required is beyond me, but I know that changing the requirements over time is just a waste of, well, time.

And Advantage Scaling is just asking for people to feed harder so they can surrender quicker. I'm not saying everyone will actually intentionally feed whenever they want to surrender, but it does set an incentive to do so. I know there's a counter-current of argument going around that we shouldn't be afraid of new systems just because they are abuse-able by a minority of bad players, but this goes too far I think.

Regardless of my issues with those specific solution, I think some surrender vote reform could be in order. There could stand to be more consistency and ease-of-use. To me, that means removing the time-related differences. Personally I'd like to see surrender votes be possible from the start of game, and require 4 votes at all times. But of course, that makes win-trading and MMR tanking much easier (surrender@1), so it's probably not feasible.

I'd settle for just reducing the 15-minute vote requirements to 4 people. Or making it require 5 votes at all times, in exchange for allowing even earlier votes at 10 minutes (because yes, some games (like 1 in 200) really are over by 10 minutes).

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I'd be more in favor of reducing the 15 minute requirement than increasing the requirement at all times. People hold their teams hostage way too often to not have a system in place for that. Unless Riot wants to specifically make going against a majority vote punishable, it won't work to require the votes to be unanimous.

I get what you're saying about waiting around for 5 more minutes, but the whole point is that it's just 5 minutes, as opposed to the rest of the game.... That's why I want to enable people to surrender with a 3-person majority after enough time has passed. The point of not allowing surrenders early on is to force people to play long enough to potentially gain an advantage or make a comeback, this just extends that by making people try for a little longer in exchange for being given a fair opportunity to vote their way out if their efforts during that time don't pay off.

Leonerdo2 votes

That makes some good sense. But I can't get over the thought of what the 2 optimists would feel in the 3-2 surrender vote scenario. It already sucks in the 4-1 case when you want to keep playing (maybe you're the only fed member on the team) and the other four surrender for you. But at least in that case you can think, "Well, I'm heavily out-numbered in this vote. If I'm the only person who thinks this is winnable, then maybe I'm just wrong."

In the 3-2 case, it can feel a lot more arbitrary and frustrating. Like "Almost half our team still wanted to play! Me and [other guy who voted no] could have carried the game." Ya'know what I mean? If there's another voice agreeing with you then you can't as easily accept that you were wrong, per se, and that the vote was fair.

And I don't think this really matters, but it's another way to look at it: Surrendering means the game is over. Period. Not surrendering just means that the game goes on for 3 more minutes before you can vote again. So shouldn't it be harder to surrender than not? (3-2 votes are equally hard to deny as as they are to pass.)


So idk, this is a tough issue, and I'm not sure there is a good compromise between all the issues. On the one side, people don't want to be held hostage in unwinnable games. And on the other side, people don't want to forfeit before even getting a chance at a comeback in the mid-game. And in the middle, it seems weird to have both sides catered to, but at different point during the game.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

I see what you mean, my hope is that having it take until the 30 or 35 minute marker would give players enough time to see beyond their pessimism or optimism. If they can realize whether or not the game is hopeless or not, then they won't be as likely to vote wrongly. I don't have the data to back this up, but perhaps I should investigate it, because this might be a really interesting experiment:

I wonder how many games end in surrender at various time into a game. I hypothesize that most of the surrenders are earlier on, while most games that reach late game are a lot less likely to be surrendered because people are invested and committed to playing it through by that point.

All that aside though I do understand what you're saying. Forcing two optimists to give up would be an awful experience for them, and having someone who agrees with you is certainly a factor in making it feel less fair to have your own wishes out-voted.

I would like to point out though that this goes both ways; people who are forced to stay in the game when they can see that the majority of the team does not want to keep going can find that situation extremely vexing.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Exactly. Seeing the 4-1 ff vote at 15 min means you're free to fuck around and not give a shit about the game because you've collectively agreed to quit in 5 more min. Its really just a waste of time at that point.

Sammystorm2 votes

I think this could be a good idea

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thanks for your support! Do you have any ideas yourself that you think might work as well or better?

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Thoughts?

SaltyToplaneGoat5 votes

I really like the idea of tuning the needed votes down to 3. I am sick of random premades holding me hostage in a lost game tbh.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Yes! That's the idea: in solo-queue, duos would not be able to hold their team hostage out of spite anymore, at least not after whatever time Riot chose as the late-surrender point.

TheSingularity2 votes

One tweak I would make, is that if there is a premade of 3 or 4, AT LEAST one other vote from the non group is necessary. This would stop most abuse cases.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

That's a great idea! In normals and flex queue premades are likely to vote together, so it's better to require enough votes from different groups. Although that might create a problem where people who are premade but have differing opinions have their votes valued differently which could be unfair.

I Main Swain4 votes

{quoted}

I really like the idea of tuning the needed votes down to 3. I am sick of random premades holding me hostage in a lost game tbh.

yes but on the flip side a random premade 3 would just have complete control over the game, they could decide on the spot that they dont feel like playing anymore and ff. i get what op is trying to say but theres really no healthy way to change the surrender vote

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I dunno, at the very least for solo queue this would prevent premades from holding their teammates hostage because you never have more than 2 people.

The JigSAW1 votes

I'm totally on board with surrender requiring 3 votes at 25 or 30 minutes. I had several games where two people purposely trolled by refusing so we'd get beaten down by the enemy team longer, and of course they had no mercy or pity and just kept it up.

If 60% of your team wants out, there's no reason at 25-30 minutes to deny it. 15-20 mins, sure, require 4 but after that it should be less strict since you have a lot better view of the game by then.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Indeed, that's what I'm thinking about it at least.

Venompaw1 votes

Surrender should only take ONE vote. If someone doesn't want to play anymore, the game should end. Or maybe two votes max.

Just intentionally not try to protest the game taking longer.

The Archive2 votes

I'd recommend you take literally a second to think about abuse cases.

ChidoriTrueSpear1 votes

I just want to be able to FF at 15 minutes with 4. The game is 17-2, and its 15 minutes in and 4 people vote yes, and then one person decides for whatever reason to vote no -.- Also, they could move the 5 vote requirement to a new 10 min FF, and keep 20 the same. And then your ideas could be implemented as well.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Maybe that would work, yeah. I dunno though, it is a bit unfair to the one person at 15 minutes if the game is actually winnable but people are just demoralized. Maybe in ranked it should be different from normals... just kind of thinking out loud.

If Riot can fix snowballing a bit then maybe this won't even be a problem anymore. Time will tell.

Total Eclipse1 votes

Please fucking give me this. Its stupid that we can be reported for going AFK in a terrible game, yet some people refuse to play just because theyre the only ones doing poorly. Ugh, its such a mess. I think your solutions both sound perfect. Just punish abuse cases. Should be easy to isolate them honestly.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Well it's not without its flaws but yeah that would be the idea! Hopefully some devs see this and talk about it internally at Riot.

More from Gameplay

More by HalcyonDweller