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What are you not able to understand in "sometimes damage buff is necessary?"

D357R0Y3R··6 votes·1,713 views

Listen Janna this champion has ABSOLUTLY ZERO FUCKING FAVORABLE MATCH UPS in high elo Riot gave her 18 sec cd shield and forced her to autoattack/use W (which slows herself reducing her damage btw) Then nerfed her damage, so how the fuck do you win lane as Janna now?

you have Soraka who's relevant in LPL, oh but what do I see? Soraka is able to deal more damage than an adc until 10 min in the game? Explain to me why the fuck would you pick Janna when she's everyone's bitch while other supports can 1v1 an adc until they have at least one item? Hell, fucking Alistar is a better Janna right now, able to cockblock everyone but actually has pressure in lane.

You pick Janna, lose all pressure in lane, make your adc playing 1v3, make your lane unable to respond to any agression on the map.

So now Riot buffs her damage to make her relevant in pro which is a good idea. Then we have ù*^$ed threads popping up "look riot buffing damage again!!! damage creep!!!"

How the fuck do you fix Janna then without buffing her damage anyone here explains to me how you give back pressure to the champion without buffing damage?

"don't give her pressure, just buff her peeling ability"

so you want to do what Riot is doing for Darius? Aka not fixing any of the problems in pro and making them gamebreaking in regular? Janna doesn't have problems in regular, buffing her shield would give her back 55% win rate Janna in pro would not become any better because AGAIN YOU DO NOT HAVE PRESSURE IN ANY MATCH UPS

This boards should try to become better at the game before talking about damage creep

29 Comments

Ashe mage AD7 votes

This boards should try to become better at the game before talking about damage creep

I can understand it if it's about Janna but generally speaking <.< are you even serious? That's how the game got to this shit fest of a state, a little buff here, a little buff there, and on and on and on season after season then add runes reforged in the mix, learning the game atm = being able to blow up the enemy before they blow you up, what the fk is even your point?

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

learning the game atm = being able to blow up the enemy before they blow you up, what the fk is even your point?

Gotta give it to you, you have a point.

Moody P4 votes

low elo soloQ ape fest being about killing people faster doesn't mean anything and this disappears every time people start playing tanks and defensive supports. (like Janna)

literally no different from previous seasons where you just stacked a better deathball and rolled over the other team 5v5.

Ashe mage AD1 votes

this disappears every time people start playing tanks

... you're disappointing me so hard right now, the adc needs to be underfed or building like the low elo apes you just mentioned to not melt tanks in the late game in this meta

And Janna? Yeah sure, she's ok vs assassins except in that case assuming their laning was ok it's her ADC that wrecks the enemy team and it's the same fkin shit storm just a little more one sided, you totally forgot to mention that, huh? In other words if you want to raise the point that Janna solves anything it only does so for one team.

Moody P4 votes

ignoring that this doesn't happen any time tanks are dominant, including start of this season. More to the point, DPS is supposed to beat durability and it's always happened this way. Any tank dying quickly in a fight is getting focused by multiple people.

Janna gets fucked by tanks and she doesn't show up in tank metas. The ADC isn't wrecking anything without Janna helping them - kind of the point of a support. "Like Janna" meaning that enchanters prolong survival and the entire class is bad right now. Put 2 and 2 together the soloQ meta bot is kill lane supports, mid is assassins, top and jungle are mostly triforce fighters and carries -- I wonder why damage looks so high?

Ashe mage AD1 votes

I'm not ignoring it it's just ADCs never got better tools to deal with tanks like they do right now but maybe that's a bit biased coming from me since I play exclusively Conqueror 100% crit ADCs.

Ok, so 1st you say Janna does things then you point how she doesn't even see play these days xD why bother to bring it up in the 1st place? xD

Moody P3 votes

Because there's a reason she is getting buffed

Who Fed Ru2 votes

Nope that's honestly not the reason.

It weren't those small damage changes to champions (there were also a lot of nerfs in there), the main difference made things like keystones first, and now the new Runes that add a lot of damage to everyone, but the most important thing is that you no longer have those extra armor/mr/hp from old runes at the beginning of the game, where that is A LOT. Especially on squishies.

Add all the changes to the items to that and you have the reason.

Ashe mage AD2 votes

Before you talk I dare you to go watch some season 2 game play where fights look like endless brawls instead of people blowing up left and right how it looks these days, then come back and tell me about nerfs being in there as well, I dare you. It's pretty clear how the nerfs - buffs ratios went.

Who Fed Ru3 votes

Just like it looked in Season 5. Nobody killed anyone back then and basically only tanks were viable, and you had to pray that your ADC is decent because else you wouldn't win any fight. That was even worse gameplay than right now if you ask me. Then Season 6 and keystones came which were basically all offensive and adding damage, and now we have even stronger keystones PLUS the rune stats were just removed. That, and only that is 95% of the reason why the game is like it is rn.

Do you really believe some small individual buffs (they rarely even buff a champion much because small changes are already often enough to buff a champions power) have more impact than global changes?

Sharpest glasses1 votes

are you even serious?

I mean he's right

This boards should try to become better at the game before talking about damage creep

Ashe mage AD1 votes

Sureeee~ just go have a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rUmmv7dQRk It took 5 ppl to blow up ppl in season 2, just look around in your own games how many it takes these days but sure~~ I won't even bother to check your op.ggs it's clear there'd be the nothing to be impressed of but ya'all talk and act as if you were chall, pff.

Sharpest glasses1 votes

I won't even bother to check your op.ggs it's clear there'd be the nothing to be impressed of but ya'all talk and act as if you were chall, pff.

pitiful ad hominem. Its mainly cause im low elo, i know i can improve so much. And i also know this board bitch to much for all and nothing.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

No?

damage creep happened because riot lowered base mr, increased base ad, increased spell damage in preseason (on every AD champion by 10 on each spell) buffed a lot of support damage with frostqueen, buffed lethality (then reverted it) buffed MR pen (boots and void staff) gave everyone a nuclear bomb with keystone

THAT'S HOW DAMAGE CREEP HAPPENED it's not with small changes that made it happen

haaaaaaalp1 votes

{quoted}

No?

damage creep happened because fucking riot lowered base mr, increased base ad, increased spell damage in preseason (on every AD champion by 10 on each spell) buffed a lot of support damage with frostqueen, buffed lethality (then reverted it) buffed MR pen (boots and void staff) gave everyone a nuclear bomb with keystone

THAT'S HOW DAMAGE CREEP HAPPENED it's not with small changes that made it happen

And it gets fixed by nerfing everyone's damage until janna is viable as a support, not buffing her =/

Janna isn't a bad champion by any measure, she is simply outclassed by the top tier of champions all of who need nerfs.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

And it gets fixed by nerfing everyone's damage until janna is viable as a support, not buffing her =/

Ok so you're the type of person who would take a plane from USA to africa and then take a plane from africa to australia instead of directly going to australia

haaaaaaalp1 votes

{quoted}

Ok so you're the type of person who would take a plane from USA to africa and then take a plane from africa to australia instead of directly going to australia

You are looking at the problem too narrowly. The goal of balance changes should not be to get one specific champion into a top pick/ban slot at worlds. It should be to put every champion on a level playing field.

Ashe mage AD1 votes

You do have a point with the removal of old runes and locket contributing but I know what I'm talking about also, in the long run buffs were more prevalent then nerfs. The removal of those def stats was just the cherry on top imo.

BLIGHTBRINGER2 votes

The thing that annoys me most, is that Healing based Supports can be easily countered item 3076 item 3123 item 3165 while Shield based Supports like (Lulu, Janna, Karma, Morgana, Rakan, Sona, Taric, Thresh) have no ways of countering their Shields, even when some of these champions that are mentioned have relatively weak shields.

Riot refuses to add an Item or Rune (like they said they would potentially add) to counter Shields specifically, but they chose to change how some of the Shields work, by making them decay. Which doesn't matter because the late game the Shields are so big, and the cooldowns of Shield abilities are so low that they can be almost perma-shielded.

Weiss Guertena1 votes

IMO making shields decay was the better solution. If you tie the ability to directly counter shields to items/runes any champion has access to, then you run into same problems GW has: you have to balance shields with that in mind. Healing abilities already have to be too strong in order not to be invalidated by easy to apply and maintain 40% debuff. In the same vein shielding would have to be buffed across the board in order to not feel useless when someone takes the shield counter, which would in turn lead to said counter being pretty much a mandatory buy versus shield-heavy champions. And it's not just shield-based supports; all the champions who rely on self-shielding to survive like Vi, Yasuo, Shen and many others would have to receive compensation buffs.

In the end you'd just create a much bigger balance problem than the one you had in the first place. Decaying shields make it possible for each champions' shield to be adjusted individually until it feels fair rather than having them all either too strong or too weak depending on if someone on the opposing team takes a counter option.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Yeah I just realised, it would effect every single shield in the game. Yeah, bad suggestion.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

shields are temporary the counterplay to shields is to wait until they expire

that's why riot reduced the duration of shields or made them decaying

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

Fair enough.

woodvsmurph2 votes

Some champs aren't SUPPOSED to be about the lane. They merely cut their losses to a minimum and outscale for teamfighting or splitpushing mid/late game. Janna SHOULD BE one such champ with the kit and scaling she has.

Let me put it simply: there's a thing called a power curve. There's another thing called a NET POWER CURVE. Net - like with net income - balances out the power of a champ over the whole game to give you the average power rating of the champ. So if we use a scale of 10 and janna is a 3.5 in lane, a 5 mid game and a 7.5 late... her net power curve rating is 16/3= 5.3

Now leona for instance is ENTIRELY about bullying in lane and snowballing for a victory because her cc, damage and durability aren't as impactful in full on 5v5's mid/late as janna or taric, or many other supports. So she might have 7 in lane, 6 midgame and 3 late game for a rating on our scale of 10. This leaves her with (7+6+3)/3= 5.3 net power curve rating. She's a 7 vs janna's 3.5 in lane which might seem unfair for janna... but the same could be said for leona's 3 vs janna's 7.5 late game.

You cannot simply give a scaling champ the same power as a lane bully in the early game or anywhere near it because then there is literally no reason for any role not to go for the scaling option... there's no risk involved and no benefit to playing a champ with early game or mid game power. Champs having different power curves helps make the game interesting and fun. It let's people have the option of playing aggressive and hoping to snowball and end early... but risk being outscaled and losing if they don't punish enough early on with their power advantage. It also let's people play more safe/passive and look to outscale but run the risk of being bullied and snowballed on early/mid. Or they can play it safe throughout by picking a champ with average power throughout the game.

The only problem you run into with stuff is when something has too big a power curve gap at any given point in the game. Like when most crit adc's were unviable bot lane... their net power curve may have matched that of say... swain bot, but the problem was they were at TOO BIG a DISADVANTAGE early and had TOO BIG an ADVANTAGE late, but could never reach there due to being too punishable at their weak phase to ever reach late game power. So Riot buffed their early game to a level of disadvantage that was manageable and more fair for both parties while nerfing their late game power curve advantage somewhat (hopefully equal in terms to the buff given to early game; reality on that is debatable) so that the NET power curve equality was preserved.

Whether you feel adc's got too much of a buff without enough of a nerf to their scaling or whatever is up for debate. But you can see my net power curve philosophy in the way Riot TRIED to re-balance adc's when they helped out the early game of crit adc's a few patches ago. The same principle applies to janna - a "hyperscaling" support. You cannot buff her weakest phase of the game (laning) without simultaneously needing to do an EQUALLY POWERFUL/MEANINGFUL nerf to her scaling (late game/strongest phase of the game).

D357R0Y3R1 votes

some champions should win against SOME other champions

no champion in this game should have 0 favorable lane match ups Even nasus is able to bully some set of champions if played right and I can bring my Nasus main friend here to confirm it.

woodvsmurph1 votes

First off... no crap nasus has some favorable matchups in lane. He has a built in exhaust which first off means great power vs non-caster-based toplaners. Riven is caster-based moreso than most others and has very low cd's at full build and cdr which is why she counters nasus so hard... because his wither on her basically means nothing. Second off, the wither sets up easy ganks for junglers early on when the enemy is pushing nasus under his tower. So again... no duh he's stronger in lane than most people realize.

Thirdly, champions should be balanced with each other over their net power curve. So if you're strong early like draven... you bully vayne in lane, but are trading off knowing she will bully YOU just as hard (as you bullied her) late game. Net power curve balance means if you compared the power of both champs over the entire course of the game and averaged their power at each point to get a singular power value... it should be very close to the same number as the other champ got.

So if fiora is at an extremely high late game power, then she either must have an equally extremely low value early; an extremely low mid, or moderately low early and mid. Her early is moderately to slightly low. Her mid is on-par with most assuming she didn't feed her butt off early. So her late should then be slightly to moderately high... not extremely high. But it is. So we are left with a power curve imbalance where fiora's net power curve is left higher than others. If there is no downside to say... playing hyperscaling kai'sa or vayne by putting yourself at serious risk early/mid, then there is no reason to play a lane bully in kalista or draven aside from the fact you like the champ's kit even though you're (in this theoretical scenario) underpowered compared with vayne or kai'sa in terms of net power - to an unfair degree. Why do you think they knocked off some of the scaling of adc crit items when they made them more accessible/better early game? Because they realized what I've said... NET POWER CURVE matters. You cannot improve the early game of scaling without decreasing late game advantage (if the net power curves are equal that is). Just as you cannot buff the scaling of an early game champ without knocking down some of their early game power - lest there be no reason to risk taking a scaling champ in the hopes you out last and out-scale. Very simple logic here.[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Eleshakai2 votes

This buff isn't going to make her win lane. It's just going to make her RELEVANT in the lane. Which every champ DOES need to be. No, you don't need to win, but you need to be more than a minion in the laning phase.

woodvsmurph1 votes

[deleted]

Eleshakai1 votes

This thread is about Janna, not Fiora.

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