Do wards need more counterplay?

AHarmlessTaco··5 votes·600 views

So, someone brought up a point to me on a post I made. They said that the problem with sightstone and wards is that they have little counterplay. Aside from Control Wards, they offer little interaction and simply sit there, placed from range at instant speed, and then you can do nothing about them unless you have very specific counters.

Now, does anyone else here think that wards really need more counterplay and interaction? Should they take longer to deploy? Should they be visible if you stand right next to them? Should they be able to be placed from so far away?

What kind of things would really make the warding game more fun and interactive? Should wards use a channel-system to destroy , like the gems on Ascension? Should you have to channel to place them?

Idk, throw out some ideas and how you feel about them in general. If you are interested in a larger scope discussion on some ideas I had, visit http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Fj9RMhK2-support-vision-and-item-overhaul

11 Comments

Mr Carbon2 votes

meh the trinket's update gave us a variety of options and ways to destroy and gain vision... The people you are referring to are probably just bitching and moaning because they don't take the time to clear wards as opposed to just placing their own vision and thinking they did their job.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

item 2055 item 3341 item 3364 item 3147

All item-specific hard-counters, all require luck and guessing, or knowledge of the ward's position in the first place.

But please, tell us more about the variety of ways of clearing vision and how ward's have good counterplay and outplay potential.

https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fconservativetribune.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2FWilly-Wonka-meme-1024x536.jpg&f=1

Mr Carbon1 votes

The that that you were able to pick out 4 separate items that deny vision and forgot the jungle plant that reveals half of the jungle side and shows vision ( so technically 5) shows how out of line you are... If you think upgraded sweeper and jungle plant require luck and guessing to clear vision please go watch an actual game of league of legends.

YOU CAN CLEAR HALF OF THE JUNGLE VISION WITH ONE SWEEPER PROC

In any actual decent level of play there are very specific places that wards might be that are extremely educated decisions (NOT SIMPLY LUCK OR SHEER GUESSES). There are clear weakness to each form of ward and very clear strengths.

But who am I to think that a low Gold player has any knowledge of vision gameplay...

Move along.... and find something else to complain about

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Are you saying that players have to internalize a map of the likeliest warding spots just to be able to participate in countering their opponents vision? And are then limited in their interaction with most wards because they need a specific item (or a plant)? Are you saying that the ability to sweep half of a jungle quadrant with a plant or a free item is good counterplay? Maybe it is, but it's not counterplay inherent to the ward itself.

An educated guess made using context clues like where they enemy was last seen and where they are moving is still a guess. The clear strengths and clear weaknesses you're referring too are what exactly? Two ward objects being visible and therefore vulnerable? A weakness for sure. Certain wards having a very short lifespan? You could call that a weakness I suppose. Virtually all of the wards being ultra easy forms of vision and providing incredibly safety? Definitely a strength.

IDK what my Rank has to do with how sound my observation is. I didn't even start playing Ranked until recently to get the end of season rewards, but w/e.

Wards, for the most part, lack inherent counterplay. Can you convince me otherwise?

Mr Carbon1 votes

What I gather is: that as soon as I place a ward the enemy team should automatically know where I placed it, and should immediately be able to clear it. They should know exactly where my jungler is at all times. While you are at it... why doesn't riot give us a timer of all of the enemy CD's and Summoner spells. While you are at it...All skills should be point and click... the list goes on...

If professional gamers who study ward placement and timing extensively as a part of their training and practice still die and get outplayed due to ganks and map rotations because they don't have vision of certain areas of the map or brush due to (Wards being cleared, limited amounts of wards, wards timing out, ect.) Means that there is no excuse for you to be complaining that wards are OP at silver/gold play level.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

What I gather is: that as soon as I place a ward the enemy team should automatically know where I placed it, and should immediately be able to clear it. They should know exactly where my jungler is at all times.

Not at all. The wards I propose (and the kind of design I'd like to see applied to wards) do the opposite. They enable people to outplay the ward (and the enemy's entire vision setup) by virtue of their own skill and strategy, mechanics and timing.

All of those wards have some form of defense (the Sentry is indestructible, Beholder regens HP, Snitch and Observer are invis, Beacon can't be attacked except by ranged champs.) With the exception of the Beacon, no one immediately knows where you placed any of these wards. And your jungler, and the enemy jungler, as I said, can outplay these wards and in many cases, even when spotted, still retain a large degree of ambiguity as to their position. No specific counter-item needed, although they're there for insurance.

(The Sntich, for example, gives you info that would save your life and help your team, but you never see the enemy jungler, so he or she can still use your lack of sight to further their own plays. Same goes for the Sentry and Observer. With the Beacon, because it is visible through the Fog of War, you can play around it entirely by not going to that area of the jungle, or using invisibility (such as Eve, Rengar, Shaco, etc.) to bypass it all together. By being visible, the Beacon gives players the ability to judge it's sight radius and skirt around it entirely, and being placeable on terrain leaves certain areas in the Fog of War.)

If professional gamers who study ward placement and timing extensively as a part of their training and practice still die and get outplayed due to ganks and map rotations because they don't have vision of certain areas of the map or brush due to (Wards being cleared, limited amounts of wards, wards timing out, ect.) Means that there is no excuse for you to be complaining that wards are OP at silver/gold play level.

I'm not complaining that wards are OP. I'm complaining that Riot's philosophy of counterplay and clarity hasn't been applied to wards when it's been applied to every other aspect of the game. You mentioned the idea of how boring the game would be if everything was point-and-click. Consider that every ward has a circular AoE of vision. If skillshots add so much to the game (they do) imagine what having different AoEs of sight would do - conic and rectangular AoEs, especially. Currrently Kali's Sentinels and Scryer's Bloom are the only conic AoEs of sight IIRC.

The irony in all of this is that I'm a low ELO player that wants vision to be fallible (less reliable), so that ganks and outplays can happen more often and organically, and so that our wards could be much more powerful and specific in their effects and possibly FREE. If they weren't so basic (the sight equivalent of point-and-click spells) and uninspired, the vision game would be much more fun and players might enjoy warding, since it would be an expression of their strategy and their mind against the enemy's. That I'm a low ELO player asking for more variety in how we get information, and not just asking for more vision like the rest of the Boards.

MatthewRT21 votes

Just get swifties or mobies and then speed while running through the area you think is warded

DrugsForRobots1 votes

http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fleagueoflegends%2Fimages%2F1%2F1e%2FLivesByProxy_WardRework_BlueSnitch.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20160226042313&key=a45e967db0914c7fb472fd4381e6c85b&width=150 The Snitch:

  • Invisible.
  • Gives a visible / audible ping whenever an enemy champion enters its range.
  • Doesn't grant any vision.
  • Enemy champions can hear the ping it gives off.

http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fleagueoflegends%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fcf%2FLivesByProxy_WardRework_YellowBeacon.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20160226051903&key=a45e967db0914c7fb472fd4381e6c85b&width=150 The Beacon:

  • Sight in a large AoE around it, unobstructed by terrain (can see over / through walls.)
  • Only attackable by ranged champions (400 range or greater.)
  • Can only be placed on terrain.
  • Is visible to enemies through the Fog of War.

http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fleagueoflegends%2Fimages%2F7%2F7e%2FLivesByProxy_WardRework_RedSentry.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20160226051903&key=a45e967db0914c7fb472fd4381e6c85b&width=150 The Sentry:

  • True Sight.
  • Indestructible.
  • Vision is limited to a cone that rotates, which the enemies can see.
  • Is visible to enemy champions and can be disabled temporarily.

http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fleagueoflegends%2Fimages%2Fd%2Fda%2FLivesByProxy_WardRework_GreenObserver.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20160226051902&key=a45e967db0914c7fb472fd4381e6c85b&width=150 The Observer:

  • Invisible.
  • Grants sight in a long, narrow line from ahead and behind that extends indefinitely in both directions.
  • Can be seen at very close ranges; enemies know when they've been seen by it.
  • It's line of sight is blocked by all units, terrain, brush, and structures.

http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette3.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fleagueoflegends%2Fimages%2F9%2F9f%2FLivesByProxy_WardRework_PinkBeholder.png%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20160226051902&key=a45e967db0914c7fb472fd4381e6c85b&width=150 The Beholder:

  • True Sight in a large AoE around it.
  • Regenerates HP.
  • Is visible to enemy champions.
  • Delayed activation upon placement.

I hope you can see what I mean when I talk about exploitable weaknesses or blind-spots. These are all overt and explicit about how they control an area, they should all communicate their function readily to players due to their name and color. None is specifically better than the others but situationally more appropriate.

The vision game needs something like this: one ward per player, one trinket per player, with wards occupying the trinket slot, overriding trinket use until placed. Players can mix and match and use these to cover their flanks. It doesn't have to be exactly these effects, but they should give you an idea of what's possible.

AHarmlessTaco1 votes

IMO way too hard for new players, and even moderately experienced players, to get a good grasp on and remember. The ideas themselves? Workable. Having all of them? Not a great idea IMO.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

IDK how these would be hard for new or veteran players to comprehend. There entire functionality would be evident as soon as you placed one - and if you're the enemy, as soon as you came within range of one.

I'd be willing to bet you could show the Sentry Ward in action to gamers who've never even played League before and they would understand immediately what it does, what it is all about.

Swiftstrike41 votes

Most low elo players don't even ward. Most low elo players don't get sweepers.

Adding additional types of wards would simply be more things they wouldn't do.

I think wards have enough counters. The control ward is significantly better than the old pink ward if we consider that it deactivates vision.

Simply letting players put 2 control wards on the map would probably be enough if they wanted more ways to tackle vision control.

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