Akali as a melee assassin is beating bruisers top lane

RankOneUganda·Sep 7, 2017·53 votes·3,786 views

http://champion.gg/champion/Akali/Top?league=

damn I wish I could trade with her. W negates all return damage as she can use cds on you and then use W. 9 seconds. fantastic gameplay.

53% winrate top lane. an assassin that builds full damgae and is melee. is allowed to perform better top lane than bruisers and juggernauts

fucking xd Riot no longer balances for solo queue.

this isn't saying that she is op. or melee bruisers are weak. but this just doesn't make any sense. she shouldn't be outperforming bruisers top that belong there while also being a decent mid laner. what happened to the triangle

also talon shouldn't be beating top laners. let me take darius mid. oh fuck am inting

131 Comments

MizayaSep 7, 201718 votes

I've played her a few games and first thing I noticed is the ridiculous amount of sustain from her passive, it's actually insane.

SlythionSep 7, 20174 votes

honestly, if they just reduced her stupid amounts of sustain then she would feel better to play against in the midlane. I can poke her out all day but the moment a wave reaches her tower it feels like she just heals it all back :/

As for top lane, idk but she seems pretty stupid up there

ganggoinkSep 7, 20175 votes

Sustain is pretty limited, check it out if you don't believe me. Akali is fine you guys are just bad

SlythionSep 7, 201714 votes

You just told a dude to personally check out Akali's sustain when his source was from his personal experience playing the champion. Like, wtf xD

Even if you were right, your argument is stupid and the comment was unnecessarily rude

AR URFSep 7, 201714 votes

In before all the akali mains down vote you to oblivion. I concur completely.

PopcornBunniSep 7, 201712 votes

As a tank top player ( Poppy Malphite Sion ) she also shreds and outsustains any attempt to cc chain or use minion aggro because of her free healing and essentially nonexistent resource management.

Pumping IronSep 7, 201710 votes

She just outsustain any toplaner. She wins trades just proccing tunderlord with q auto e and sustain with her passive back to full health. You can only win extended trades but if she's smart she will just disengage with her w.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 7, 20172 votes

The W that leaves her trapped in a small zone?

SweedishGunnerSep 7, 20171 votes

I think he means with the initial cast and the dash, you can cross walls with it for example.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 7, 20173 votes

I suppose I could see that. But it's the same as Riven's Q3 jump in distance. The only walls nearby top she can jump aren't in the middle part of the lane, they're either into baron pit, over the wall to that divot near the blue-side tribrush, or past turrets.

Pumping IronSep 7, 20175 votes

That w it is enough to lose minions agro and dash her back to safety. Im talking about trading in lane not teamfights or something (her teamfights are bad right now because of shields supports). But her laning phase and dueling are 10/10.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 7, 20172 votes

W loses minion aggro, but doesn't dash you back to safety. It's objectively too small a jump to do that.

And laning phase is only good against champions that can't harass her. Which is almost anyone. Fuck, Janna out-harasses her.

Lunar ArcSSep 7, 20171 votes

Have you ever gotten all in-d at lv 3 by her? It's kinda gross but nobody talks about it

DuskDaUmbreonSep 8, 20172 votes

No. I haven't. Because I literately just step backwards, and she can't reach me. She's too slow, and her gap closing ability is basically nothing until she has ult.

Lunar ArcSSep 8, 20171 votes

She can q you, walk away w auto you q auto reset ignite and e and you are probably dead or have to burn flash unless you were full hp

DuskDaUmbreonSep 8, 20172 votes

Her W has a cast delay, and the MS boost isn't that useful for going anywhere that isn't somewhere in the shroud. Her Q is laughable damage as well.

All of her all-in pre-6 requires either her to flash or you to be in an equivalent range to Annie's ultimate cast range (Not proto>R, not flash>R, definitely not proto>flash>R, just R) to her. And her potential for killing you in that situation is pretty much nothing, as the simple delay on auto attacking will prevent her from actually killing you.

Trust me. I've both been Akali and played against her. I know her power very well.

Lunar ArcSSep 8, 20171 votes

Her cast delay is made up for in its own dash. Her q damage isn't laughable ?????? I am lv 7 with over 200k mastery with her I think id know what I'm talking about

DuskDaUmbreonSep 8, 20172 votes

Yes. It entirely makes up for it. And nothing else.

Her Q itself does pathetic damage. However, the AA proc of it is very high.

This means that once she actually closes, she does a fuckton of damage. But until she actually can close, her damage is pathetic. By buying a Doran's shield, you negate it at rank 1. By buying a Specter's Cowl, you negate all of its initial damage. This does not apply to the AA proc of her Q, which does a lot of damage.

She can't poke, and unless you have the base movement speed of an Ashe, you can prevent her all-in.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 7, 20179 votes

W is on a 16s CD, and costs 30% of her pool at first rank. It leaves her in one tiny-ass area.

Her innate sustain is laughable early on. Sure, it does decently later in the game, but it's in the same boat as Ahri's. Pathetic when it matters, strong when it's all but irrelevant. Gunblade gives her a lot, sure, but it gives anyone a lot of sustain. It's in the nature of the item. You heal for 15% of single-target damage you deal, and 5% of AoE damage. Akali only seems to do better with it than others because most of her damage is single-target.

Her burst is almost entirely backloaded onto the AA proc of her Q. It's that one hit that does so much damage. Sure, her second hit of passive can do a lot, but it's mostly in her Q.

She has poke that having a Specter's Cowl entirely negates, that's how laughable it is. At rank 1, Doran's shield negates it entirely, after your MR is factored in. This is comparable to any toplane champion, who all have some decent poke.

And bruisers aren't meant to beat assassins automatically. Hell, nobody is supposed to autowin against anyone. Not assassins against ADCs, not ADCs against tanks, not tanks against assassins. But that's beside the point. Bruisers and assassins are a very similar class, the only difference being that Bruisers trade in their escape for durability, and some burst for CC (Yes, this means that Rengar is a bruiser, now). Bruisers should no more autowin against assassins than other assassins should. It's a pure skill matchup that's slightly in favor of the bruiser, depending on the assassin in question (Someone like Zed should do worse, since his burst is loaded into his ult, while someone like Akali should do better, because her burst is loaded into a low-CD ability).

Her beating juggernauts is almost certainly because juggernauts almost always build offensively for their first item (almost universally Black Cleaver is rushed, except for pretty much just Nasus, who rushes Iceborn).

Now, if you're still having problems fighting Akali, tell me who you're playing, and I may be able to help you out against her.

King of DemonsSep 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

W is on a 16s CD, and costs 30% of her pool at first rank. It leaves her in one tiny-ass area.

Her innate sustain is laughable early on. Sure, it does decently later in the game, but it's in the same boat as Ahri's. Pathetic when it matters, strong when it's all but irrelevant. Gunblade gives her a lot, sure, but it gives anyone a lot of sustain. It's in the nature of the item. You heal for 15% of single-target damage you deal, and 5% of AoE damage. Akali only seems to do better with it than others because most of her damage is single-target.

Her burst is almost entirely backloaded onto the AA proc of her Q. It's that one hit that does so much damage. Sure, her second hit of passive can do a lot, but it's mostly in her Q.

She has poke that having a Specter's Cowl entirely negates, that's how laughable it is. At rank 1, Doran's shield negates it entirely, after your MR is factored in. This is comparable to any toplane champion, who all have some decent poke.

And bruisers aren't meant to beat assassins automatically. Hell, nobody is supposed to autowin against anyone. Not assassins against ADCs, not ADCs against tanks, not tanks against assassins. But that's beside the point. Bruisers and assassins are a very similar class, the only difference being that Bruisers trade in their escape for durability, and some burst for CC (Yes, this means that Rengar is a bruiser, now). Bruisers should no more autowin against assassins than other assassins should. It's a pure skill matchup that's slightly in favor of the bruiser, depending on the assassin in question (Someone like Zed should do worse, since his burst is loaded into his ult, while someone like Akali should do better, because her burst is loaded into a low-CD ability).

Her beating juggernauts is almost certainly because juggernauts almost always build offensively for their first item (almost universally Black Cleaver is rushed, except for pretty much just Nasus, who rushes Iceborn).

Now, if you're still having problems fighting Akali, tell me who you're playing, and I may be able to help you out against her.

Akali heals so much because her passive scales from both stats on top of the sustain the item provides anyway

Akali is meant to beat these tanks and bruisers, that's why she h as this sustain in the first place

Serika ZeroSep 8, 20173 votes

I'll quote what i wrote in another post:

Akali's passive at lv1 heals for: DISCIPLINE OF MIGHT: Akali's first basic attack heals her for 5 - 60 (based on level) (+ 60% bonus AD) (+ 45% AP) health. With my runes and masteries, it heals for: 5+1+8, a total of 14 hp at lv 1. 7+2+9 at lv 2, a total of 18hp 9+2+9 at lv 3, a total of 20hp (866 hp total now) 11+2+9 at lv 4, a total of 22hp (and max hp at 933) 13+3+10 at lv 5, a total of 26hp heal per passive heal (and a max hp of 1003) you can see the trend, its not a lot...

PennsSep 7, 20176 votes

leave assassin overlords alone Lucian Corki are top tier mid laners too hehe

also theres no way assassins beat a darius or some tank mid, so..

Mens Hair ClubSep 7, 201712 votes

Darius is under powered I got 1v1'd by bard when I was afk lol

please buff

PennsSep 7, 201720 votes

at least darius is cis white male. as blue amphibian, i am more oppressed pls check your privilege and buff hehe

An Undead bratSep 7, 20174 votes

Still male

Inb4 I'm neither male, neither an animal and last of my kind on top of that, talk about privileges

Velzard of KozSep 7, 20172 votes

Velkoz Ya'll need some more void.

An Undead bratSep 7, 20172 votes

Ok but how is someone who disintegrates the whole city when feeling like it actually oppressed?

Velzard of KozSep 7, 20172 votes

These are different velkozes. Stop with stereotypes. It's just you plants that are all the same due to anti-void supremacy being established within the society system.

EuthenaasiaSep 8, 20171 votes

Satisfying read here

Chembaron YamadaSep 7, 20171 votes

Erm, what? You were afk and then really wonder that a support was able to kill you??

SlythionSep 7, 20175 votes

not sure if you just don't understand sarcasm or if I can't tell you are being sarcastic lol

Glory ln DeathSep 7, 20172 votes

Either way, someone here needs remedial sarcasm courses.

PePsiLemoNNSep 7, 20172 votes

Lucian 46% winrate and Corki 47.6% winrate mid , ''top tier mid laners''. hehe

rtbf76109271Sep 7, 20173 votes

watch any pro game ever..

skyskee008Sep 7, 20172 votes

Pro game are different because they can abuse Lucians early lane priority/use him as a counter pick.

Also Pros can use Corkis package more effectively.

OMGSoAnnoyingSep 7, 20175 votes

Odd, every time I run into a Talon in top lane, he gets cucked, and cucked hard.

Granted, I usually pick Galio or Yorick into him, and just get a bit of armor... and his early game is done. Bonus points for when he tried to dive the Galio under tower because "he was low."

Press E, Press W... "An enemy has been slain."

An Undead bratSep 7, 20174 votes

https://imgur.com/1kO4OS3

Make this a meme pls

DrugothSep 7, 20174 votes

Darius, Garen, Cho'gath, Sion, Ornn.

All of these champions have something in common. They shit on Akali in her shroud.

Akali is SO HOTSep 7, 20173 votes

Talon is really strong top lane because his passive allows him to get first blood 99% of the time against most matchups and then he snowballs to victory.

Critmaster GarenSep 7, 20171 votes

its the sustain from her first hit on her passive. it allows her to take stupid trades and then restore 1/3 of her health bar by autoing a minion.

ive been saying for a while, they should turn both on hit effects into bonus damage instead of only one of them.

on top of that they could do something more interesting like converting all the damage of the first attack into physical damage, the second attack converting all damage into magic damage. including item passives like duskblade and lichbane.

getting extra damage on both hits, and having them convert all damage into physical/magic damage would not only fit better on an assassin kit, but also with her entire hybrid champion/balance theme.

ThefrostyvikingSep 7, 20177 votes

You seem to like exaggerating a lot? O_o

At lvl 6 her passive heals a grand total of.....15 base + 60% bonus AD, + 45% bonus AP. it has a CD of 8 seconds provided she uses her other AA right away after, otherwise it has a 12 seconds CD.

So like....with item 3145 and 2 item 1036 she then heals like 40-45 health.

Outa 924 at lvl 6.

You need math before you start engaging in game balance questions.

Critmaster GarenSep 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You seem to like exaggerating a lot? O_o

At lvl 6 her passive heals a grand total of.....15 base + 60% bonus AD, + 45% bonus AP. it has a CD of 8 seconds provided she uses her other AA right away after, otherwise it has a 12 seconds CD.

So like....with and 2 she then heals like 40-45 health.

Outa 924 at lvl 6.

You need math before you start engaging in game balance questions.

yes, its exaggerated, but its also why shes so strong in top lane.

its her sustain. and personally i find it unfitting for an assassin. even akali players should value 2 on hit damage procs more. if you want sustain, you can still get gunblade.

StairCasexdSep 7, 20171 votes

If they removed the sustain, she'd become very unviable in the mid Lane which is where she's intended to be. It's fine in the mid Lane but of course people found out it helps her top.

Critmaster GarenSep 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

If they removed the sustain, she'd become very unviable in the mid Lane which is where she's intended to be. It's fine in the mid Lane but of course people found out it helps her top.

other assasins are able to deal with having no inbuilt sustain. Fizz

i dont see why its different for akali.

she has her shroud to be able to play around mage poke. increase her base health a little bit, and rework her passive.

StairCasexdSep 7, 20173 votes

But other assassin's aren't akali. Akali can't really do much pre 6 against most mages, anyone whos playing a mage and knows what she does can easily beat her down and she can't do anything. Her shroud is pretty unreliable and it's on a high cd plus AOE which lots of mages have, say lol. She can't really punish anybody who isn't Melee, In comparison to Kat who can E+W in when they use a main spell (like tali Q) and have a pretty good trade or zed who can use his shadows or talon who's still a huge threat pre 6. Removing her sustain from her passive would probably only work if they beefed up the damage on her Q throw so that it can actually be used to harass mages. Why would you even take akali mid at that point when you can take any other assasin? Diana is also assasin-ish (or at least can be played as one) and it works good for her because even though she doesn't really have power pre 6, she still has strong poke power with her Q. I mean why would akali have a sustain tool in the first place? Unless you can convince me that akali without her sustain stands any chance against a mage. Like I said before, if the mage is any decent and knows what akali does, they can probably screw her over hard while on the other hand, Katarina who's also an ap assassin stands a chance.

Gutting the passive sustain to push her out of tip would probably make her not see any play in mid either, until her vgu at least.

ThefrostyvikingSep 7, 20173 votes

Fizz has a very important set of skills that akali does not tho.

He has sky high base damage even without a supporting item like gunblade.

A ulti that does a crapton of damage if hit right (not easy though)

He can go untargetable which is a absolute nightmare for mages.

And his melee trades are also good, at his peak he beat Renekton early on, and even after nerfs he´s still strong in that area.

Akali? She has to expose herself to deal damage, and while she can shroud to avoid non dot dps and wait for CDS she can't however go into her smoke, avoid all non DOT damage and then emerge to instantly cause a ton of damage when leaving smoke.

They are different champions, both kit wise and fundamentally altho they look to do the same things, don't bother comparing them too much.

It's like comparing Zed and talon, or wukong and Zed etc.

Critmaster GarenSep 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Fizz has a very important set of skills that akali does not tho.

He has sky high base damage even without a supporting item like gunblade.

which would be increased on akali, if that first heal proc would be replaced with a second damage proc.

shure, akali isnt fizz. she has more waveclear, isnt restricted by mana and has a ranged direct damage target ability on a short cooldown with her q instead of a dash. she can easily use that to cs minions that would take her into a risky spot.

i still see no reason why akali couldnt be changed to do fine without the extra sustain.

ThefrostyvikingSep 7, 20172 votes

It's simple, again, it's about the untargetability and damage times.

If Fizz hits you with his ultimate from a distance then it's a 80% chance or more that you´ll die with an item or a helper to save you,

If akali dashed on you the you can still smack her, because her damage isn't instant, a single Q-E-R-R-R with some auto's won't kill most champs.

Fizz however, can kill squshies with Q-E-W something, some autos around and maybe even a bad ulti.

All the difference lays in their ultimates and fizz´s untargetability, because he can avoid major incoming damage even if it's a point and click he does not need as much sustain.

Meanwhile akali can't avoid damage the same way, if aoe hits her shroud then she will take the damage, if it's a point and click then she cant avoid it either.

That's why she needs sustain, because they were both made and balanced as midlaners you gotta think how they handle ranged harass.

Which resulted in both being really, really broken toplane, and why most ranged champs can easily lane toplane and why so many people hate playing against it.

Average toplaner sucks against anything that isn't similarly an average toplaner or a tank.

DorkunedAurasSep 7, 20173 votes

Fizz has Troll Pole, Q for mobility, an AA damage reduction passive, and is permaghosted, all of which gives him options for not getting slaughtered by Mages (though he still struggles pretty hard early).

Akali has her Q for really bad ranged CSing (does very little damage, most effect is backloaded into the AA proc) and her W to hide every once in a while (long CD, still predictable area) as her only options if she doesn't have her healing passive.

I'm not saying Akali's passive is good design, but your comparison is poor.

DorkunedAurasSep 7, 20172 votes

I'm just going to correct one thing. The passive CD starts ticking after her first hit, not second. So it is an 8 second CD regardless. I fully agree with your math and the cause you're pushing, but I figured I'd clear one thing up.