Deathcap is keeping some mages from coming back into the game fast enough vs ad carries.

RankOneUganda·Aug 27, 2017·88 votes·2,735 views

just putting it out there. deathcap is equiv of IE for mages. but they can't build it. because it has horrible build path and is too expensive.

a big problem is that so many ratios has been nerfed in exchange of lower cooldowns in which don't really impact mid late game as much as having the spell more often in which usually on a lot of mages you do 1 or two rotations of basic abilities max.

Deathcap needs a price reduction also some mages and ap's needs to be nerfed in this case because they do not lack power. and a morellonomicon needs a freakin nerf

53 Comments

ModAcademy KaynAug 28, 201713 votes

I say that Deathcap is only the equivalent of IE in terms that they're both damage amps, but not how they're both built. IE is usually rushed first, Deathcap is hardly. The more comparable of IE would be Morelleo, as they're both power spike items, and they're both bought around the same item slot.

RavenMagusAug 28, 201714 votes

IE is far more comparable to Deathcap in terms of what the items do, much more so than Morello's.

IE being bought first isn't a case of it being a different kind of item. It's a case of it actually being a good item, and Rabadon's being shit.

ModAcademy KaynAug 28, 20179 votes

IE is a first item powerspike for ADCs, and Morelleo is commonly a first item powerspike for mages. Not a lot of ADCs buy IE later as late as most mages would buy Rabadons, so if they're not both not common first buys, than they're not that much the same.

ADCs like IE first cause its AD, Crit chance, and Crit damage in one. Mages like Morelleo because it's Mana, AP, and CDR in one. Rabadons is purely AP, and to find a comparable item, you'd need a pure high AD item.

RavenMagusAug 28, 20179 votes

Rabadons is purely AP. If a mage wanted a pure AP powerspike, it should be a legitimate item choice on someone that has really high ratios.

But it's not, cause it's shit.

IE should be better later on, once you have other crit items built to scale with its passive.

But it's fine, cause it's not shit.

ModAcademy KaynAug 28, 20174 votes

Because it's not Pure AP only, it's AD with Crit chance and Crit damage passive.

RavenMagusAug 28, 20177 votes

It's damage with more damage. Nothing else to help the damage, no attack speed or cooldown or anything - it's just a giant load of pure damage, just like deathcap is. Crit is just a damage amp itself, just like Deathcap's passive. They're actually extremely similar items in design.

ProfDrDeathAug 28, 20176 votes

No. The difference is, Infinity Edge has a mix of damage-focused stats that are amplified with each other. Meanwhile, Deathcap has a single stat (AP) and a massive multiplier to that single stat. However, to make full use of that multiplier, there needs to be something to multiply.

RavenMagusAug 28, 20176 votes

That's... that's the same, though. That's what crit is. It's a multiplier for AD, just like deathcap's passive is a multiplier for AP. Don't be confused just because crit has a name and Rabadon's Deathcap doesn't.

Champion SkinAug 28, 20174 votes

That's... that's the same, though. That's what crit is. It's a multiplier for AD, just like deathcap's passive is a multiplier for AP. Don't be confused just because crit has a name and Rabadon's Deathcap doesn't.

No it isn't the same Because there is BASE AD which is being multiplied by crit and crit damage While Rabadons doesn't have any base AP to multiply

RavenMagusAug 28, 20173 votes

Mathemetically, in terms of how the items work, it's still the same (damage + damage multiplier on both items).

But the lack of base AP does make Rabadon's suffer, that much is true.

Champion SkinAug 28, 20171 votes

well a lot of the reason IE is good early and Deathcap is terrible is because of the difference between base AD and base AP which doesn't exist and is always 0 which leaves deathcap with a lot less to multiply compared with IE which have crit and crit damage as multipliers which work with the base AD the champion already have while also increasing the damage of bonus AD (though of course crit only work on AA's)

Well AP champions also have base damage on their abilities but Deathcap doesn't affect it

LordGeovanniAug 28, 20172 votes

Its not because Morellos is better because it has damage and solves mana problems and Lowers cooldowns by a shit ton also having grevious wounds it Morellos does too much for Death cap to compete for first item slot and it wont be built any other time because adcs are now building cheaper items faster aka mages lost their best window to build deathcap because they prioritived an overloaded item because it helps them when they miss spells .

SanctimoniousAug 28, 20171 votes

I remember when power spikes looked something like: Kayle item 3020 item 3115 item 3089 item 3100 With the case of AP / CDR / Mana item Deathcap Voidstaff Utility items (Lichbane, DFG, Zhonya's Hourglass, Rylai's) Mages are far from their glory days. Especially with the AP scaling nerfs over the years.

FilDaFunkAug 28, 20175 votes

Deathcap is the equivalent of IE. The fact that only one of them is rushed is more of a comment on the state of them game.

ModAcademy KaynAug 28, 20171 votes

Please look back at history, and notice just how long IE has been a first buy for most Crit Marksmen. Now look back, and see how many times Death Cap has been a first buy on any Mage. There's a sizable difference, this is nothing new.

Teridax68Aug 28, 20176 votes

I think what the others are trying to say is that, functionally speaking, both items occupy the same niche in terms of what they do for mage or marksman builds: Infinity Edge grants a large chunk of stats and adds a passive that amplifies a core stat they purchase throughout the game (i.e. crit), whereas Rabadon's Deathcap also grants a large chunk of stats, and grants a passive that amplifies that core stat as they purchase more of it.

Looking back at history, there were also periods of time where Deathcap was a first buy for many mages, whereas Infinity Edge was picked second or third, with Bloodthirster taking the lead. Infinity Edge being a must-rush is a very deliberate move by Riot to steer marksmen away from rushing sustain on their first full item, which historically led to very passive gameplay. By contrast, no such move was made to promote Deathcap in recent times, and its current clunky recipe makes rushing it very difficult.

So yeah, Rabadon's and IE are fundamentally the same kind of item for different classes, and despite both of them having a lot of their power dependent on building other items, IE is still good enough to rush on its own, whereas Deathcap is usually one of the last items to be picked on a mage build, if it is even picked at all: of all the mages out there, Veigar no longer commonly picks Deathcap as part of his build, which I think speaks volumes on the state of that item right now.

It Hertz When IPAug 28, 201711 votes

IE gives a decent powerspike even without any other damage items, while Deathcap needs other AP items to give the same powerspike. That's why they're built at different stages of the game.

If you want a reason to rush Deathcap, then remove the AP percent increase and replace it with a percent magic damage increase (number subject to balance). That'd make it a valid rush item, since it'd work with base ability damages as well as AP increase.

CowseedAug 28, 20179 votes

Deathcap needs a price reduction also some mages and ap's needs to be nerfed in this case because they do not lack power

So you want some people to be forced to build an item to make it viable and probably making the champ worse at the same time? :D How fun......

Dr PoroAug 28, 20175 votes

Riot's solution: Give it CDR!

Squidward DabAug 28, 20172 votes

Riot's stupid solution

Dr PoroAug 29, 20171 votes

Tbh it was a good idea at first. There used to be so few CDR items, most of them having 20%. I liked the change to more 10% items but now they've overdone it and they even admitted it themselves.

HaIlMonitorAug 28, 20172 votes

So you don't want to have unlimited mana to deal more damage?

The DeckownerAug 28, 20172 votes

Nerf IE instead of buffing Cap, dont do it other way around.

RankOneUgandaAug 28, 20174 votes

deathcap is still shit unless your fed. ie needs a nerf for sure. the item is 110% efficieint on ITS OWN without any other crit. with mroe crit. it goes up way more.

Gentleman JeyAug 28, 20172 votes

Or it simply needs smaller parts. Like a cheaper unique passive, same as deathcap, item that give +20% AP. So that you get 2 power spikes. A mini deathcap spike, and a full (current unchanged) Deathcap spike.

Stars ShaperAug 28, 20172 votes

I think deathcap could be left at its current price if the build path changes and an inbetween item gets added which is a smaller version of the cap with some less ap and a 10% AP increase (or building AP over time similar to item 3191 and item 3052 ).

Jeanne fan clubAug 28, 20172 votes

The big difference between IE and Rabadons is that IE will make your crit auto attacks scale with ad 250%. There are almost no ap abilities that scale 100% with ap.

Stevev45Aug 28, 20172 votes

Not any more. There were a lot in S3.

SanctimoniousAug 28, 20171 votes

Kayle item 3020 item 3115 item 3089 item 3100 xd

specter424Aug 28, 20172 votes

Morello doesn't need a nerf. It is one of two viable first items for every mage, the other being Rod of Ages. Every mage needs a mana item since mana regen was gutted.

A Bad NasusAug 28, 20172 votes

I remember when it was meta to rush a item 3072 first and not just on Draven ....

It was also considered troll to rush item 3031 then too.

GGLineaRAug 28, 20172 votes

If you're gonna nerf Morello, you gotta buff something else, and making Rabadon's actually WORTH the money to more than like, 3 champions isn't gonna cut it.

AP is relatively weak as it is. AD items cost less, and give more stats, and then Lethality exists. Specifically this fucker item 3147 .

Give AP some better penetration items, or something akin to lethality, and then you can start nerfing AP items. Because if you just nerf AP AGAIN without proper buffs, people like Zed , Fizz and Talon are going to crush low elo players even harder than they already do.

And I'm not saying we should balance the game around bronzies like myself, but all I ask is that you consider our enjoyment, just a little.

Just let me play TwistedFate without getting destroyed because someone picked an assassin, dammit. lol

ZT XperimentorAug 29, 20172 votes

Never mind the fact riot nerfed nearly all their items in the mage update.

EnjutsuAug 28, 20171 votes

Would be nice if at least it had a smoother buildpath because current one is ridiculous, get all the parts and you're still more than item 1058 off with inventory probably full.

ThefrostyvikingAug 28, 20171 votes

How is rabadon bad tho? Pure AP works great as a second item as long as you manage to farm properly.

I actually prefer it over Luden´s echo on a number of mages just because i like more damage over my entire combo rather than a extra thunderlords and a bit of movespeed-

RafatinoniAug 28, 20173 votes

If you build it has the 2nd item it's waaaaaaay too cost innefective.

ThefrostyvikingAug 28, 20171 votes

Cost innefective? Maybe.

But you still gain enough AP to burst nearly any other squishy target in a single rotation even if they have a little MR and no extra health.

That's not something you don't get from luden.

Altho there is a noticeable powerspike if you´d build luden after rab, most can't do it for reasons but if possible there is a noticeable spike when done.

RafatinoniAug 28, 20172 votes

Let's say it's still early game and you have 125 AP [100 AP from item 3165 , which is probably the only overperforming/great item in the entire AP Mage itemization, 25 AP from masteries and runes (doesn't need to be 100% accurate, but it's about there)], with item 3089 , which gives 120 AP + the 35% bonus AP passive, you get 205 AP, which makes you have 330 AP. This all sounds fine until you realise you spent 3800 Gold for 205 AP, it's too much Gold when the only thing it gives is 205 AP in this case. Yeah, it goes up as you get more AP, but for early game, it's very cost innefective. I'm, however, not asking you to change your building playstyle because you probably have your own and honestly there aren't that many options. I get the powerspike you're trying to tell me but unless you're fed, this kind of build isn't that good, in my opinion.

ThefrostyvikingAug 28, 20171 votes

Issue is tho, that no other build except maybe voidstaff is worth is either.

Because ludens pretty much force you to go for rab after unless you wana start falling off real hard and void isn't great by itself.

For a mage the AP is your entire foundation, whatever you do you´ll need a ton of AP.

Rab is the only thing that grants it.

RafatinoniAug 28, 20171 votes

I see that after building item 3165 you like to go to full offensive AP items, well, me too, I prefer having lots of AP than defensive stats and other stuff sometimes. I would be nice if item 3285 gave more AP like it used to or get better in another way . Indeed, I think building item 3135 that early isn't usually worth it. I'm not saying the way you build is bad, you actually have your point.

ThefrostyvikingAug 28, 20171 votes

I kinda started building like this because i felt that mages and AP assassins need their damage rather than defensive stats in all but a few cases, they're there to deal damage, not try and soak a bit of burst.

My usual path is something like item 3165 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3285 item 3102

AP is fairly high and you can still survive lategame dives with banshee, altho you can actually build banshe after morello if needed against someone like fizz or LB.

Question then though, becomes if it´s worth to try and go rab or get void first.

Order might change but those are the AP items i generally like the most, i tend to get them nearly every time.

Might switch banshee for a zhonya and sorc for ninja if playing against a strong AD assassin.

RafatinoniAug 28, 20171 votes

My path is usually 1. item 3165 2. item 3020 3. item 3285 4. item 3157 5. item 3089 6. item 3135 .

I'm a Lux and Velkoz main and I might have a different playstyle so it's normal that it's different, by the way I'm not sure if mine is the best.

I do item 3285 because it is nice on those champions and I like the item even tough it's not that strong, sometimes I take item 3102 over item 3157 but since I usually take summoner 21 I don't usually do it. I might build item 3135 earlier if they're getting too tanky and I build item 3089 as 4th item if the game is going well for me.

Personally, I like this build because I get lots of AP, have no mana issues, have some survivability with item 3157 or item 3102 and summoner 21 and with the runes and masteries I have, i get 45% CDR on level 18.

Also, if the enemy team is not too tanky, do you think it's worth to sell item 3020 and buy something else like item 3100 or if they are tanky, sell and buy item 3151 ?

ThefrostyvikingAug 29, 20171 votes

Vel koz is great actually, his passive+ulti interaction ensures that he´ll always be relevant as long as he doesn't get crushed. It ensures that he can switch around his items after morello quite freely without too much issue or loss of efficiency.

I am surprised that you´d use such a build on lux tho, she tends to be one among those that really like their high AP right away.

Lichbane on lux? O_O I am the type to stay miles away from enemies on her so i can barely understand the thought xD

And i might just have played Anivia and malz too much but i really dislike Liandry on champs without DOT abilties, feels so bad in comparison.

RafatinoniAug 29, 20171 votes

item 3100 is just a fun item for Lux because you deal TONS of damage with your basic attack ( passive + Lux passive + Thunderlord's), but since she's a very long ranged mage I see it's kinda trollish xD Thanks for the advice tho.

So I see that you advise me to build item 3089 on Lux as 3rd or 4th item on her, well, since she is so long ranged if I play safely and decently maybe I don't need item 3157 or item 3102 that early and should go for high AP right away like you say.

After all, maybe I should stick with item 3020 in a late game build, movement speed is more precious than it looks.

I play Lux on ranked games but I think Velkoz is a bit better overall but I'm better on Lux than I'm on Velkoz so I'm not sure if I should change the champion I usually play on ranked games.

Thanks a lot for the advice by the way!

ThefrostyvikingAug 29, 20171 votes

Advice and advice,.....it was just my casual thoughts no need to take it all too seriously.

I can't call myself an expert either x)

But keeping boots on mages is generally a good idea i think, loss of mobility makes you more vulnerable to flankers and divers.

Getting caught in short.

Vel koz is probably better in general situations but he is also harder to play from behind i think, lux has an easier time since her ulti isn't channeled quite so long which doesn't leave her so exposed when dealing damage.

Both are great when played well though i think, it's not like we're in diamond needing to mind minute details.

And honestly if you can make your build work then it's just great actually, you don't need to mind the meta too much as long as you make it work.

The best or one of the top 5 Riven's in Korea is using his own build rather than any of the meta ones, and he is still in the top just because he´s really good and comfortable.

Being comfortable with your style is a important factor for success i think.

My build is just closest to what i feel good with^^

RafatinoniAug 29, 20171 votes

Alright, you seem to have some knowledge about this so I thought you were giving me some advice. Anyway, thanks. :)

bbQsauçeAug 28, 20171 votes

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Squidward DabAug 28, 20172 votes

Deathcap is barely worth it anymore, most mages would rather just build mpen than raw ap. Back then you could build deathcap before void and still deal damage, now you're basically sentenced to building void unless u want all ur damage nullified by every single mr item

5050BSAug 28, 20171 votes

I find item 3003 to be a better buy. Gives me everything I need to keep up with the Zero mana costs of everyone else and late game I get a shield.

item 3089 needs something like Spell Crit or something.

SanKakUAug 29, 20171 votes

I don't know, I don't feel like Deathcap and Infinity Edge do the same kind of thing at all. Technically speaking, Deathcap is raw power. Infinity Edge is nice, but you can buy any AD item to empower the abilities dealing damage and scaling with AD.

But, I think maybe Deathcap is a bit too expensive. However, I would be in favor of them reducing the base AP that it provides in addition to its cost.