they are meant for consistent dps. not burst. am sick and tired of being critted by an adc twice and dying late game because oh god their support just used locket ult and everything to shield them for 2k damage. its ridiculous. adc does not need to two three hit people late game to be mandatory. remember when it was ezreal meta? god. he would actually take work to do damage
deadlychuck30 votesThis is basically because riot tried to force them into an anti-tank role, via flat damage numbers.
Tanks are best countered by % damage, something which works best on AP champions, because they don't inherently have high flat scaling like AD, meaning you can manage how much flat scaling they get more precisely. You could in theory make a AP champion which killed all champions at about the same speed, by giving them only % max health damage.
But instead riot decided to push ADCs (not really just marksmen any kind of AA carry), to a point where they'd be able to kill tanks... for some reason. Now you've got a class which can kill the hardest to kill champions in the game, but doesn't lose that damage output on champions which are much easier to kill. It's the most obvious oversight, and riot just fucking went with it as if nothing was wrong.
Acheron166 votesThis is basically because riot tried to force them into an anti-tank role, via flat damage numbers.
Tanks are best countered by % damage, something which works best on AP champions, because they don't inherently have high flat scaling like AD, meaning you can manage how much flat scaling they get more precisely. You could in theory make a AP champion which killed all champions at about the same speed, by giving them only % max health damage.
But instead riot decided to push ADCs (not really just marksmen any kind of AA carry), to a point where they'd be able to kill tanks... for some reason. Now you've got a class which can kill the hardest to kill champions in the game, but doesn't lose that damage output on champions which are much easier to kill. It's the most obvious oversight, and riot just fucking went with it as if nothing was wrong.
That's so silly. Physical damage carries have always been supposed to grind tanks down. If mages were capable to dps tanks down then you'd have characters without any weaknesses since mages not only have the damage, they also have CC.
Why do you think Champions like Ryze, Azir and Cassio have always been so problematic? They not only have DPS via their intended design, they also have burst AND CC, meaning that when they are viable at all skill levels they are positively overwhelming since they have too many tools at their disposition.
deadlychuck9 votesWhy do you think Champions like Ryze, Azir and Cassio have always been so problematic? They not only have DPS via their intended design, they also have burst AND CC, meaning that when they are viable at all skill levels they are positively overwhelming since they have too many tools at their disposition.
Ironic that you'd make such an argument, because I've said the same thing about these kinds of champions 
but that seems to be perfectly fine to many people, yet when you see the same thing in AP champions, it's unacceptable.
I digress, physical damage carries were never supposed to KILL tanks, and never have they really been the counter to tanks when it comes to the RPG design that league takes from. Tanks have always been beaten by burst damage, by making them pop their defensive mechanics and then slipping damage in between their metaphorical armor. % damage, either current or maximum, is where you should be getting your tank killing potential from, not flat damage, because there is no way to have enough flat damage to kill tanks effectively while not having excessive damage on anything that isn't a tank .
Acheron161 votesIronic that you'd make such an argument, because I've said the same thing about these kinds of champions
I digress, physical damage carries were never supposed to KILL tanks, and never have they really been the counter to tanks when it comes to the RPG design that league takes from. Tanks have always been beaten by burst damage, by making them pop their defensive mechanics and then slipping damage in between their metaphorical armor. % damage, either current or maximum, is where you should be getting your tank killing potential from, not flat damage, because there is no way to have enough flat damage to kill tanks effectively while not having excessive damage on anything that isn't a tank .
No... they haven't...
Have you ever actually played any RPG ever? Any MMORPG since... ever?
Classic RPGs or MMORPGs very rarely have % based damage, because that damage would be excedengly powerful versus those aforementioned raid bosses (whose dificulty comes exactly from their huge health pools) and would be mandatory... hence why they are almost never given to players.
Unless you understand the very basics of RPGs we cannot conduct a rational discussion, so for me, this discussion is over until you show that you understand the bare minimum to have a sensible argument.
PS: I also despise the champions you mentioned due to them having high damage with CC and sometimes defenses that scale with damage (Riven)... which is why they also are extremely problematic whenever they are in a decent place.
koshkyra24 votes
Lazer = 700-800 lategame
Headshot Crit = 1200-1400 lategame
Its not like Luxs Lazer is on a much longer cooldown, is dodgeable, and has a cast time. Not like that at all!
ValyrianBlade9 votesIt's not like Lux's R doesn't have a much larger range and can hit multiple people. Not like that at all!
koshkyra3 votesis on a much longer cooldown, is dodgeable, and has a cast time
Not saying any more than this.
Meeks0111 votes
Arsenic Sulfur1 votesSo the 120 second cooldown combo out-weighs the single 30 second button press? Got it.
Jayce Top3 votesIts much easier to stack armor than Magic resist.
Most tanks will have about 350+ armor, and 150 mr.
Also considering almost everybody in this game either builds 
or 
, that just nerfs caits ult even more.
RavenMagus4 votesThat 150 mr is enough to make Lux almost worthless, though. if she doesn't get a kill with her QER combo, she's effectively out of the teamfight.
If caitlyn doesn't get a kill with her right click combo, hey, it's back up in 0.5 seconds.
Arsenic Sulfur1 votes150 is not enough as you can effectively negate it with 2 very popular items on mages being Sorcerer Shoes and Void Staff. You'd need about 3 MR items to negate a mage
's damage. What separates a mage from an ADC is not the damage type but the fact that it's either AoE, provides CC, or both in some cases. So Lux didn't kill anyone, but severely wounded at least 2 people and kept at least one in place all from a safe distance. Should Locket+redemption have been used you blasted through more than it restored because scalings be whack yo.
Oh and the ADCs that can provide AoE don't do as good as mages as it's always just damage and the ones that provide utility are at the damage levels of mages but only single target.
Dream High3 votesYou only need 1 mr item. Mages do their damage in spell rotations so that 1 mr item increases the amount of spell rotatio s it takes for a mage to kill you. After that building health is all you need.
ModValeeva4 votesThe fact you are randomly trying to ult someone without first Q'ing them, is stupid.
Lets realistically talk about lux burst.
She can, with a simple Q, E, R oneshot any mage/adc who gets caught. Simple as. Not to mention that R procs her passive which alone can deal about 300 damage, her Q damage, her E damage.. thats a good 1.8k damage without even a void staff.
ValyrianBlade15 votesADCs should be critting squishy champions for half their health, otherwise they wouldn't be very squishy...
An adc would never stand a chance against a mage if it was only 50-50 once they're in auto attack range and the mage has more range on their damage AND more utility in their kit. That ADC can be blown up just as quickly as he can blow anyone up - except he has fewer tools to safely get in the position to do so, or to safely get out after. Which is why so many resources are spent on protecting them; supports being good at their job doesn't make adcs critting squishies op, it just means he has a better team around him than you do.
deadlychuck6 votesAn adc would never stand a chance against a mage if it was only 50-50 once they're in auto attack range and the mage has more range on their damage AND more utility in their kit
Except that the mage has CDs. You have a much higher chance than 50/50 as an ADC if you go in when the mage is vulnerable in this down time. The problem really comes from riot making champions which deal burst damage, like many mages, 100-0 someone with a single rotation and shoving CDR into everything (not to mention all CDs generally being reduced over time).
The reason positioning use to be so much more important to marksmen was because they weren't expecting to be able to kill a target in their down time, you'd want to get in damage then avoid/get out just as they're CDs came up, giving you the better trade.
What should make a squishy champion "squishy" is how many trades they must lose before they're in the danger range of being burst down. If that number of trades is 0, then you've fucked up somewhere along the line with respect to game design. A tank should be capable of trading quite a few times before they're either burst down or forced to back off, where as other champions should only be able to withstand 1 or 2. But we don't see this, even ignoring fights with multiple people involved, just a 1v1 you basically see champions being designed to kill a target having not traded at all.
Meeks0112 votestank
burst down
The word "tank" has lost all meaning.
Shablagoo2 votesSo then when assassins where killing squishies super fast with their dmg and killing squishies and adv's complained, wasnt it the fact that they where so squishy that made them die fast. I understand it was so fast they couldnt react, but adc's do the same thing also you can't outplay an adc other then killing them faster then you.
PokladnicaZla1 votesAssassins had no counterplay.They could delete a squishy in less than 1 sec.
Shablagoo1 votesYes and most assassin's had to use their whole kit to kill you, also if something got messed up in their combo the person would not blow up, but all adc's have to do is right click you no combo at all, hit you three times and you die no real counterplay cuz you cant dodge auto's. Hoe come Crit rengar is a problem yet adc's are ok.
PokladnicaZla1 votesBoth assassins(mostly prior to their rework) and ADCs are BS in their own right. Most assassins had myb 1 skillshot to land and that was considered skill to kill a squishy in 1 sec. ADCs have come to the point where they can actually burst you down ,instead of being a DPS class.
Shablagoo1 votesYes but compared to adc's an assassins had to use his entire kit, are you comparing the two? If Talon came to oneshot, you could actually flash away from his ult or w, if timed right or if rengar came at you and you flashed his leap or he didn't have five ferocity before hand, he wont be able to oneshot. Obviously comparing the two assassins bursted faster but it makes sense consider everything had to hit. But for adc's you literally just need to right click I dont even see a slight comparison in click nor do I see how it isnt any less frustrating to play against.
PokladnicaZla1 votesEverything had to hit? Meanwhile assassin have 2 skillshots the most in their kit,hell some don't even have one. I rather be bursted by an ADC over 2-3 seconds than by an assassin in less then 1 second.
NOTE:Both classes need work,no matter how you look at it.
Shablagoo1 votesYou still dont see the difference between a person using his entire kit, similar to that of a mage, or a bruiser but for adc's you literally stand their and right click. Assassins were closer to burst mages in the fact that they had to use their entire kit to kill someone, just the speed was to fast that ppl were not able to react, if they made it more conditional and added more skill shots assassins would be actually balanced. However adc do not have that requirement they just need IE and some one dies with a right click. At least assassins, mages, and bruisers need their ults, spells, and sometimes summoners. You can always outplay ppl one these three ,you cant outplay anyone nor does anyone feel like I get outplayed against almost any adc. Their is no skill involved other then mechanics which every single champion class needs to have. And assassins need actual fixing cuz they dont even function properly, adc's need to be changed to actual dps class not burst per second.
PokladnicaZla1 votesThere's not one ADC that can stand still and kill you without using at least 1 ability.
I agree. ADC should excel at longer fights and taking down a target they focus down. Some of them (if not most) have become too strong at bursting.
Shablagoo1 votesDont even get why are going back and forth with this if we agree about adc's
PokladnicaZla1 votesTrue.Let's leave it at "ADCs need nerfs/adjustment"
ignyte8 votes" i didnt get to One-Shot the carry with my outplay button 
, because he one-shot me first "
Khristophoros5 votesI think the problem is just crit RNG. The ADC's overall DPS averages out to a relatively fair number late game but it's possible to get several crits in a row and instagib somebody. It's also possible to not crit and do nothing. Crit isn't healthy for this reason even though there is Pseudo RNG to even it out somewhat. It's still pretty bad.
The idea has been proposed a lot but here it is again. Replace crit with a non-RNG scaling stat that increases autoattack damage by a percentage.
THE RlVER KlNG4 votesWhen you can reliably look into the end game stats screen and see both ADCs having 'Largest Critical Strike' values of well over 1500 and 2000 you know there is a problem
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesNot only that. Look at my last vlad ranked game 10/5 something like that and look up the damage distribution. Every single fight i hit atleast three people with my ult, E several empowered Q rotations, W AOE etc etc. Every single teamfight. Yet i get around 45k dmg and our draven nearly 70k who is single target focused. Seems legit.
Mig893 votesIt just how it has to be if you want them to do more than tickle a tank. You cant deal decent damage to a 5000 hp tank and not expect them to burst down a no-resist 1800hp adc/mage
Spoofghoul13 votes
what resistances
Big Lincoln7 votesyou don't need crit to chew up a tank
Meeks0115 votesYeah, it's not like 
ADCs 
or their friends 
have 
anything 
to 
make 
your 
tankiness 
and 
CC/burst 
worthless.
Kyunsei3 votesthey are meant for consistent dps. not burst. am sick and tired of being critted by an adc twice and dying late game because oh god their support just used locket ult and everything to shield them for 2k damage. its ridiculous. adc does not need to two three hit people late game to be mandatory. remember when it was ezreal meta? god. he would actually take work to do damage
Crit shouldn't double your damage (2.5 with IE) but increase armor penetration for basic attack damage. That way, ADC would still be relevant against tank without having to 2 shots squishies (They'll still die in a few hit though, but not bursted to moon)
Kaìju2 votesThat's crit. It scales exponentially rather then linearly.
Imperial Japan2 votesSo you're saying they just need to remove crit and only allow for onhit
Scary Door2 votesSo, let me make sure I understand the complaint here.
You build no armor and expect not get to 2-3 shot by an adc late game? Okay, makes sense to me.
KennysDreamGirl2 votesThere is a thing called armor you know..like others have said. If your getting 3 shot by adc then it's on you for being in there range to kill you
Lauchmelder2 votesThere is a thing called armor you know..like others have said. If your getting 3 shot by adc then it's on you for being in there range to kill you
That's a load of bullshit. If I play a burst mage the ADC should position so I can't get to HIM, not the other way around.
KennysDreamGirl1 votesSo everybody should conform to you and youre the only player that doesnt have to have good positioning because "I wanna go where I want on the map with no dangers"
Lauchmelder1 votesNo.
I get zoned by assassins and tanks. I'm NOT supposed to get zoned by an ADC because I should have the kill pressure over him. I can see why you like the current no-risk state of ADCs though.
https://i.gyazo.com/b72bae63225f4a84ecfe8fca10176f66.png
As long as a burst mage is up against an ADC (both level 18, both full build) the mage should win unless he misses his abilities/combos or all his abilities are on cooldown. And that's not what is happening, because your precious ADC role is outbursting and outsustaining any other class.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesFunny when we said the same thing about adcs tanks, mages and especially assassins got reworked and nerfed to the ground for "oneshotting with no counterplay". You build glasscannon you break like glass but that doesn't apply to adcs eh?=
Sdars2 votesThere's too much damage in the game.
Assassins complain that adcs burst harder than them, because they 2 shot squichies.
Tanks complain that they don't feel tanky, as they die within 3 seconds.
Bruisers complain that they can't even reach the backline without losing 80% of their hp and by then it's pointless.
Carries complain that some champions build full tank and nearly or actually instaburst them.
And many more examples...
Something needs to be done!
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesexcept you can completely scrap the complaints of "carries".
Sdars1 votesI can't. Carries do complain, even if they're op. Everyone does.
And in the case of carries what I notice is they complain about champions that build 0-1 dmg item and the rest full tank while still being able to burst them super hard. Ofc that only happens if they're caught way out of position, but adcs like to think their class is weak. lul
Regardless, they do have a point. Tanks shouldn't deal so much damage, and I'm not even talking about Cho'Gath.
BushidoBlade1 voteslast whisper was already nerfed guys, how are you still complaining about this
kile1473 votesBecause the problem isn't last whisper. The problem is that ADC's can do 1200 damage crits late game to targets that Last Whisper doesn't effect, other squishies.
BushidoBlade1 votesBecause the problem isn't last whisper. The problem is that ADC's can do 1200 damage crits late game to targets that Last Whisper doesn't effect, other squishies.
tanks whine that adc's can burn them down, but noone talks about how overloaded tank kits are. It takes exactly one cc to kill an adc, when it's played right. Maokai and some other tanks have 2-3 cc's that can also have aoe knockback or knockup (hello alistar, braum) that can't be qss'd or mitigated by any means. crit is balanced only by the fact that so many other things can delete an adc nearly instantly. 1600 hp late game is basically 2-3 mage spells or 1-2 assassin abilities + duskblade proc, never mind that the enemy adc also has the exact same ability to crit their adc if your adc can keep up in farm / kills. it's not so easy as "crit op dude wtf" it's more like, what is your team doing to prevent their adc from free-hitting, who is the focus and where are your major cooldowns being spent, is your team better in a 5v5, 1 3 1, or a 1 4 split
you can't say crit is op when adc's are clearly weakest at / during the early game when it's a meme that bot lane gets tower lost / tower dove at lvl 6 almost like clockwork
just end the game before adc's get 5-6 item and you'll have no problems
