"If you can't climb solo it's because you're bad, it's not because of Dynamic queue" - actually, no.

Jesus is Savior·Apr 14, 2016·11 votes·2,102 views

I'll keep this tl;dr since there is already a ton of solo queue spam on the boards. If you're playing as a solo player:

Premades have more influence over the game than solo players - the team with a better premade has a better chance of winning
Since you have less influence over the game than you did in the past, it will be harder to climb. Not IMPOSSIBLE, just harder.
The rank it took you 100 games to achieve last season might take you 500-1000 games to achieve this season due to your lower influence over games as a solo player

It's not about "making excuses." Dynamic queue makes the grind huge an unenjoyable for solo players compared to last season. It adds a ton more variables and randomness which makes it take a ton more games to reach your "true MMR" due to your lower influence.

http://i.imgur.com/b0MUPhQ.png[/img]

35 Comments

IcyPepperApr 14, 20165 votes

Whether or not I agree, I do have to thank you for that cute little picture of Annie.

So, uh, thank you.

xl Kirito lxApr 14, 20165 votes

I'm sorry, but your statement,

"If you can't climb solo it's because you're bad, it's not because of Dynamic queue" - actually, no.

I had to check your match history. Roughly 400 games on Evelynn. 50% win ratio, with a subpar KDA. Your build is... unique. This isn't soloQ vs DynamicQ in terms of climbing. This is an inability to adapt to a new season, and change builds based on what's meta. With 9 other solo players, nothing would change, and you'd still have the same win rate.

Jesus is SaviorApr 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=xl Kirito lx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2BYIzufQ,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-04-14T19:09:12.672+0000)

I'm sorry, but your statement,

"If you can't climb solo it's because you're bad, it's not because of Dynamic queue" - actually, no.

I had to check your match history. Roughly 400 games on Evelynn. 50% win ratio, with a subpar KDA. Your build is... unique. This isn't soloQ vs DynamicQ in terms of climbing. This is an inability to adapt to a new season, and change builds based on what's meta. With 9 other solo players, nothing would change, and you'd still have the same win rate.

It's actually impressive that I'm even gold 3 considering half my solo games are Eve mid, and mid isn't even my secondary role (support is - but I'm not a support main so I can't pick it).

That's an entirely different issue though.

ParcevalApr 14, 20161 votes

Is it?

ParcevalApr 14, 20164 votes

... I responded to this so many times.

It's just not true. This 'premades advantage' is overblown. In the EXCEEDINGLY RARE situation where I've faced a premade without one on my team, they're much lower elo, and easy to beat.

Jesus is SaviorApr 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

... I responded to this so many times.

It's just not true. This 'premades advantage' is overblown. In the EXCEEDINGLY RARE situation where I've faced a premade without one on my team, they're much lower elo, and easy to beat.

If they're easy to beat then your team had the better premade.

ValyrianBladeApr 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

... I responded to this so many times.

It's just not true. This 'premades advantage' is overblown. In the EXCEEDINGLY RARE situation where I've faced a premade without one on my team, they're much lower elo, and easy to beat.

That's not his argument.

His argument is that if you're the solo player in a game wtih two 4 man premades, the team with the better 4 man premade is going to have a huge chance of winning, regardless of how well you play as the 5th player.

i.e. let's say in a traditional all solo match, each player has 20% influence over the result of the match. That means that roughly 1/5 games you'll have enough impact to decide whether you win or lose. So 80% of games are split 40-40 that you can do nothing about, and 20% you have control over (so even really good players who are climbing will have a win rate of under 60%, and the worst over 40% - which is largely true for anyone not smurfing).

With premades, that influence shrinks. Due to how communication and coordination work, that 20% influence in a solo game may be 10% in a game with two 4 man premades. So your potential win rates just went from 40-60% to 45-55%.

So let's say you were at a 54% win rate climbing. Now that will be 52%. It's a lot faster to climb with a 54% win rate than with a 52% win rate. That's his point.

ParcevalApr 14, 20162 votes

How is that different than every game?

trash sionApr 14, 20162 votes

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ImTPainUKnoMeApr 14, 20162 votes

I see you not commenting on my post but making your own. :3 I get what you're saying but it isn't impossible to climb solo. Best of luck to you on the fields of justice friend.

ImTPainUKnoMeApr 14, 20161 votes

It's like the league boards way of subtweeting someone ayye

redniwediSApr 14, 20162 votes

If you know how to play as a team with four other people it doesn't really matter whether they are a premade or not. Dynamic queue supports a slightly different skill set than the old queue did, with being able to read positioning to coordinate with your team being more important than mechanical skill.

So long as we keep looking at dynamic queue from the perspective of the old solo queue it will keep looking as if it is harder for solo players, when really it's just about a slightly different set of skills.

Jesus is SaviorApr 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you know how to play as a team with four other people it doesn't really matter whether they are a premade or not. Dynamic queue supports a slightly different skill set than the old queue did, with being able to read positioning to coordinate with your team being more important than mechanical skill.

So long as we keep looking at dynamic queue from the perspective of the old solo queue it will keep looking as if it is harder for solo players, when really it's just about a slightly different set of skills.

Except if the enemy premade is communicating and playing together and yours isn't... Then guess what? One of the premades is better than the other, and has an advantage. They will catch people and your team will never do anything to stop it.

redniwediSApr 14, 20164 votes

Fun fact; that's how solo queue was. If a team of randoms communicated and yours didn't you lost. This isn't actually anything new, you're simply more likely to have at least one team that communicates now.

Solo players who know how to properly communicate with a premade simply do better now than those who do not. People just need to start learning these skills that were never really needed outside of very high elo.

WoonStruckApr 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2BYIzufQ,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-04-14T19:03:55.103+0000)

Except if the enemy premade is communicating and playing together and yours isn't... Then guess what? One of the premades is better than the other, and has an advantage. They will catch people and your team will never do anything to stop it.

And how many games have you had a premade 2, 3, or 4 and won due to that? It goes both ways.

Dynamic Queue is bad because the system is flawed, not because of the gameplay implications. The only 'gameplay' dynamic queue negatively affects is translated directly through the flaws of the system. If those get removed, the entire system improves, as well as those negative gameplay experiences. But by concept, they cannot remove those flaws.

RavenhaleApr 14, 20161 votes

Your statement here is merely to argue the fact that having less influence over the game does not hinder your ability to win. Basically your rank will end up reflecting how often you were on the better team instead of how often you carried your team.

WoonStruckApr 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Your statement here is merely to argue the fact that having less influence over the game does not hinder your ability to win. Basically your rank will end up reflecting how often you were on the better team instead of how often you carried your team.

After gold, you do not have to carry your team to consistently win. You never had to. As long as you filled your role well, you were bound to climb.

Then it was always about how good your team happened to be vs how good their team happened to be. The only thing you could do was try to get your team to communicate more and play safe if you got the short straw.

Your influence is going to be generally similar, outside of those losing situations where four people are less likely to unanimously agree to follow an outsider.

It has nothing to do with Dynamic Queue. It has everything to do with the fact that you're getting queued with 4 people you probably don't know. It was a factor with Solo Queue just as much as its a factor in Dynamic Queue.

Idk if you were just making a statement for confirmation or what, but I'm just saying.

RavenhaleApr 15, 20161 votes

Bound implies guaranteed, which is never the case when you rely on statistics to provide you the better team. It may be likely or statistically favorable, but never guaranteed. All you can do is figure out how to improve your game, be it in mechanics or overall game experience.

You cannot pretend that a 4 man premade on Skype or Teamspeak is not going to have the upper hand over a Solo Carry. A Solo Carry in the past could rely on there to be somewhat less coordinated efforts to shut them down. Maybe a Duo, at best, which convinced randoms to tag along. There's just no denying that the 1 v 5 mindset has taken a huge blow.

I don't particularly view this as a bad thing. I've always played league with the mentality of helping someone on my team carry the game, regardless of which role I play. Playing normals, I had already been that one guy with the four man premade... so dynamic queue won't be anything new to me. I would argue that players that were more team focused are getting a better Ranked experience with Dynamic Queue.

ParcevalApr 14, 20162 votes

I should add, while playing 95% of my games solo, I've achieved a higher rank this season than last, in about a third of the total games.

In fact, I've found that DQ and the new champion select have produced a better overall experience for me and the ~3 dozen people I interact with who play.

Stop. This. Strawman. Argument.

Now there IS a reasonable complaint about how they've made the game much more snowbally with weak towers and low vision. But that's an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT argument.

Jesus is SaviorApr 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I should add, while playing 95% of my games solo, I've achieved a higher rank this season than last, in about a third of the total games.

In fact, I've found that DQ and the new champion select have produced a better overall experience for me and the ~3 dozen people I interact with who play.

Stop. This. Strawman. Argument.

Now there IS a reasonable complaint about how they've made the game much more snowbally with weak towers and low vision. But that's an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT argument.

New champion select and dynamic queue are not the same thing.

ParcevalApr 14, 20161 votes

I know that. I even mention both in my post.

QuephaApr 14, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2BYIzufQ,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-04-14T18:54:36.644+0000)

The rank it took you 100 games to achieve last season might take you 500-1000 games to achieve this season due to your lower influence over games as a solo player

Pretty sure it jumped from 100 games to something more like 106.

FrankerXApr 14, 20161 votes

i just dont get how, in china, ahri is ugly and annie is sexy... and who the fuck gave a child a valentinsday skin??? riot/tencent wtf?

The WhamboozlerApr 14, 20161 votes

This is spot on and 100% correct. Even with Riot saying "premades almost always get matches against premades" it doesn't change that it is those premades that will probably decide the game and the solo scrubs on each team have far, FAR less influence on who wins those matches than the premades do.

It means if you're solo the game is FAR more random... which means it's more of a luck thing than a test of skill, just like you said. It's obnoxious enough to grind out rank without being at a disadvantage because you chose to play alone. Solo players just kinda get stuck praying that their premade is better than the enemy team's premade.

WoonStruckApr 14, 20161 votes

Dynamic Queue is a bad system, not because its harder to climb (it isn't), but because its a flawed system by concept. There is no way to make a competitive 'Dynamic Queue' because its trying to use the same value (say 1500 MMR) for both DQ and SQ and say they mean the same thing, when they do not at all. Group and solo play are two entirely different things and should be rated separately. If a player gets a high Dynamic Queue rating, he should still be at the baseline solo queue rating. If a player has a high solo queue rating, he should have a slightly lower DQ rating.

Currently, some people might not even be at their 'value' in DQ because someone they're playing with might just be that significantly better than them, which doesn't change whether or not that player is, let's say bronze, playing in gold. He simply does not belong there, and Dynamic Queue has no way to get around that or truly compensate for that.

This is the main thing that needs to be addressed.

RandomoniumApr 14, 20161 votes

I pretty much only solo queue and I'm already higher than I ever was in Season 5 after less than 120 ranked games. So yeah, it is possible to climb solo even in dynamic queue.

That said, I do think I would have climbed faster in a solo-queue only ranked ladder.

RavenhaleApr 14, 20161 votes

First point is correct. The team with the better coordinated premade should win because they will be the better team in a team game.

Second point is the argument people use to not be Support mains. Having less influence does mean you are more at the mercy of your teammates not being completely incompetent. As a solo Carry, it will be much harder to take out that premade trio that are actively watching out for you. They might shut you down early while your premade is merely looking after each other.

Third point is purely opinion. Less influence does not mean your climb will take longer. It does mean your climb is more dependent on luck. So it will be more important to keep track of your stats instead of only caring about your W/L record. As long as your stats are improving, you can chalk a loss up to bad luck.

ElysMustacheApr 14, 20161 votes

Oh, lookout! It's the guy that plays Tryndamere support being upset again.

NyhverApr 14, 20161 votes

you don't invite me to games anymore?

Jesus is SaviorApr 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Pet Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2BYIzufQ,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2016-04-14T20:14:58.773+0000)

you don't invite me to games anymore?

You're not even on my list. Wut.

NyhverApr 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2BYIzufQ,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2016-04-14T20:17:44.942+0000)

You're not even on my list. Wut.

I'm formerly Nyhver I use to see invites holla

Jesus is SaviorApr 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Pet Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2BYIzufQ,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2016-04-14T20:21:20.835+0000)

I'm formerly Nyhver I use to see invites holla

idk add me

GoosetardApr 14, 20161 votes

IWD just said (and I think this is sound reasoning) that it's actually harder to climb if you're queuing with other people because they give you an MMR penalty that isn't commiserate with your actual gain in synergy.

But I agree with the spirit of your statement that the system is competitively flawed!

Viperjcs1985Apr 15, 20161 votes

When I was going from Bronze to Silver I pretty easily carried myself as jungle / top using lower skill requirement hyper-carries. Jungled as Yi / Volibear / Xin (when broken) and RekSai. For top I just did Garen / Darius.

I know it is possible and I am not good (thus why I cant carry myself out of silver)!

FovereApr 15, 20161 votes

Instead of picking 5 from different piles, you're taking 3-4 from the same pile.

When you take from different piles you have a more random assortment ==> more consistent gaming experience.

When you are picking 3-4 from a single pile then you are going to have a more skewed/extreme experience each game. They tend to share characteristics, good/poor mechanics, good/poor teamwork, good/poor communication, etc.

It's not really a question of winning or losing but how the game is played. It's simply not fun.

Further, there will always be communication bias amongst premades. Again, not a question of winning or losing, since it can end up working for or against you, but of experience. It's not fun to know (and constantly observe how) your teammates will give more weight and attention to those of their friends/premades.