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Veigar is fine.

The Bearded Bard··8 votes·924 views

Seeing a lot of Veigar complaints about his not so recent kit change and it needs to stop. Veigar is a great champion now, fun to play, not infuriatingly difficult to play against, somewhat difficult to do well with but still very strong. His Q has the obvious disadvantage of being able to miss or be blocked by tanks/minions, BUT it comes with the advantages of being able to farm twice as effectively, able to hit two enemy champions, and allowing him to farm and harass at the same time. I'd take it over a boring targeted nuke any day.

His W, they claim is unreliable and impossible to hit, but they fail to see its other uses. First of all, if you land a cage, even if they just wander around inside of it without getting stunned, you will hit the W. It's that easy. Second of all, it's an extremely effective zoning tool in lane. Simply cast it over the enemy caster minions as your minions are about to die, now they've got to make a choice, do they lose farm, take massive damage, or go around and risk getting hit by a Q? Either way, you're in control. It also makes for a great escape/kiting tool. Simply throw down that W and they'll try to avoid it, from there you can either /laugh and continue running away, or follow it up with a properly placed cage and a Q for the kill. Easy peasy.

Now, the cage. Some say it's now as impossible to land as the W, I disagree. I think it's one of the easiest skillshots in the game. Don't try to go for the stun every time, instead, go for the trap. Ideally you'll want to stun them, but keeping them in the same tiny little area is just as effective, it's just a little more dangerous for you if they've got range. Luckily your burst is quick, deadly, and you've built Zhonyas so any retaliation is futile. Besides, if you aim the W in the middle of the cage, it'll hit at any point of the cage, but the enemy often don't think of that and they panic when they see the little sparkles, running straight into the 2 second stun and still taking the massive damage of W despite their efforts.

TL;DR Veigar is fine. A little more difficult to play, but well worth the effort of learning him. If you can't handle the changes, perhaps you should try an easier champion.

30 Comments

MrButtermancer8 votes

Q does not allow for easier farming. Q could have made it easier to farm on Veigar, but for the rest of his kit. With Q how it is, Veigar does not trade reliably at all, and is even punished for trying to, because it would have been better in most cases to just throw Q at a minion for another AP or two. Good Veigars often used Q exclusively for farming BEFORE the "buff" if that's any indication of how significant the AP is. Now the damage isn't even reliable. I should also add that the CD was increased for Veigar's patch, and the AP ratio on his ulti lowered. This results in marginally higher AP in the best circumstances mid (where the enemy frankly just allows you to farm), but that is still mitigated by a lower ulti AP ratio. Now the ulti has a lower CD, sure, but Veigar, with no mobility, who relies on his only defensively useful ability (E) to combo, will die many times if he doesn't outright kill his target. So while he is doing damage more often than before, he is also doing barely nonlethal damage more often. And because of the way his kit works, that's devastating.

Because Veigar cannot trade or deal damage reliably (in addition, as in the past, to having no clutch mobility), he's much safer to harass and gank in lane. This, significantly, makes it harder to farm in many circumstances. Veigar also dies easier.

This is another case where a mid champion was being taken bottom, which was decidedly broken, but Riot "fixed" them in such a fashion that they could no longer effectively mid. Annie's problem was in her base damage, so Riot reduced her base damage and increased her AP scaling (and reduced her AA range). Good. Annie can't bottom well anymore, but she can still mid. Veigar's problem was in his stun. But with the current set-up you can't touch Veigar's stuns by changing what items he buys. So they outright took his best tools and made them garbage. Now he can't mid.

Although this is unheard of yet in the League, I propose the following possible solution: Veigar's stun duration could scale with AP up to it's old maximum (at say, to throw a number out there, 400 AP). Beyond that would be stupid and broken. This would ensure that a support Veigar couldn't go to lane with support items, give farm to the ADC, and still be horrifying with a reliable AoE stun. There are a few other fringe cases that could benefit from this as well.

What happened was NOT good for Veigar's health as a champion. He's barely ever played, and when he is played, he's played support. Veigar was my main for three years, I can tell you those people saying "he's fun, he's healthy" are NOT the only voices of Veigar players out there. In a game with a community as... well, whiny as this one, just hearing that a champion "is not frustrating to play against" should probably register as a warning sign. People are frustrated by basically everything that can kill them. All of Veigar's power is dependent on the decisions his opponent makes after Veigar uses his abilities. That's... not a healthy counterplay relationship.

Trídent4 votes

;-;

my eyes are bleeding from all the words

but from skimming it I agree 10/10 ;-;

SwapShadows2 votes

{quoted}

Q does not allow for easier farming. Q could have made it easier to farm on Veigar, but for the rest of his kit. With Q how it is, Veigar does not trade reliably at all, and is even punished for trying to, because it would have been better in most cases to just throw Q at a minion for another AP or two. Good Veigars often used Q exclusively for farming BEFORE the "buff" if that's any indication of how significant the AP is. Now the damage isn't even reliable. I should also add that the CD was increased for Veigar's patch, and the AP ratio on his ulti lowered. This results in marginally higher AP in the best circumstances mid (where the enemy frankly just allows you to farm), but that is still mitigated by a lower ulti AP ratio. Now the ulti has a lower CD, sure, but Veigar, with no mobility, who relies on his only defensively useful ability (E) to combo, will die many times if he doesn't outright kill his target. So while he is doing damage more often than before, he is also doing barely nonlethal damage more often. And because of the way his kit works, that's devastating.

Because Veigar cannot trade or deal damage reliably (in addition, as in the past, to having no clutch mobility), he's much safer to harass and gank in lane. This, significantly, makes it harder to farm in many circumstances. Veigar also dies easier.

This is another case where a mid champion was being taken bottom, which was decidedly broken, but Riot "fixed" them in such a fashion that they could no longer effectively mid. Annie's was in her base damage, so Riot reduced her base damage and increased her AP scaling (and reduced her AA range). Good. Annie can't bottom well anymore, but she can still mid. Veigar's problem was in his stun. But with the current set-up you can't touch Veigar's stuns by changing what items he buys. So they outright took his best tools and made them garbage. How he can't mid.

Although this is unheard of yet in the League, I propose the following possible solution: Veigar's stun duration could scale with AP up to it's old maximum (at say, to throw a number out there, 400 AP). Beyond that would be stupid and broken. This would ensure that a support Veigar couldn't go to lane with support items, give farm to the ADC, and still be horrifying with a reliable AoE stun. There are a few other fringe cases that could benefit from this as well.

What happened was NOT good for Veigar's health as a champion. He's barely ever played, and when he is played, he's played support. Veigar was my main for three years, I can tell you those people saying "he's fun, he's healthy" are NOT the only voices of Veigar players out there. In a game with a community as... well, whiny as this one, just hearing that a champion "is not frustrating to play against" should probably register as a warning sign. People are frustrated by basically everything that can kill them. All of Veigar's power is dependent on the decisions his opponent makes after Veigar uses his abilities. That's... not a healthy counterplay relationship.

I had the same idea that he was too unreliable, but of course low elos and their "but his q farms better"

one thing tho, before the rework veigar mains used his Q mainly for poking because it was better to use it for poking and catch them out with a instastun and kill than to farm with it.

MrButtermancer3 votes

The poke could be useful for that yes, but it was considerably less reliable than you're making it out to be. For one thing, the stun is extremely narrow. Yes, it was instant, but it was also not 100% guaranteed to land even for pros. For another thing, many mids also have targeted damage WITH mobility, and Veigar is squishy. Yeah Veigar could poke, but Kat, Talon, Fizz, Vlad, Annie, LeBlanc, Kassadin and other common mids have spammable targeted ranged poke too. The poke needed to be timed in moments of weakness because it was still easy to lose trades on Veigar.

Veigar just also had a good reason to use his Q to farm, being his AP passive. I spoke to many Veigar players about this (over the years I actually wrote two Veigar guides) and it was actually quite common to do just what I've said: poke if the enemy gets aggressive to scare them off, but focus on farming AP.

Furthermore, many current meta AP mids have targeted ranged harass and they do use it exclusively to poke, because they do not have a good reason to use it on minions like Veigar did. If you use the logic that this was unhealthy for Veigar, you can say the same about Kassadin, LeBlanc, Talon, Vladimir, Annie, Malzahar, and other mids. It's actually quite common to have targeted poke in mid. It's arguably part of the classical mage archetype.

So to reiterate, no... Veigar mains did not use Q mainly for poking, and even if they did that would not have been unhealthy, id est a reason to change it.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

I had the same idea that he was too unreliable, but of course low elos and their "but his q farms better"

one thing tho, before the rework veigar mains used his Q mainly for poking because it was better to use it for poking and catch them out with a instastun and kill than to farm with it.

It's not just his farming being better with Q. He can also burst more than one target with it, and farm and harass at the same time. It also has longer range than when it was targeted, so now he can poke without getting in death range. Overall, the Q change was beneficial to Veigar. The ult nerf wasn't necessary, but even if they didn't change how his Q and E worked, they were going to nerf the ult anyway. The E change was necessary, but is still an amazing ability.

Trídent4 votes

Stop bringing elo into this >.<

Not that right way for a discussion

Veigar's Q isn't unreliable compared to some other spells in his kit. The rework made him more fun to play, but overall was a nerf to Veigar. (combined with R nerf to compensate)

Ovion2 votes

It's not fun when you only can stay under tower, farming, because the enemy midlaner is a Zed/Katarina/somethingwithmobility.

With old Veigar, you could try and fight the enemy midlaner. Now, you have to "farm-until-100-0-enemy" because you can't harass with E-W if the enemy is any good...

At least I'm still able to carry games with him...

Trídent4 votes

The E was what gave him the safety. The Q doesn't force him under tower. The new E does.

Before, If they jumped on you, you would stun them and harass them, or burst them. Now, if you cage them, they just blink out and wreck your face.

MrButtermancer1 votes

It's not exclusively either that push him under tower. It's both. Both are worse against almost all mids. The only mids that come to mind where I would choose to have new Q in the laning phase (honestly I'd still choose old Q for the mid/late game team fights) are LeBlanc and Fizz. Maybe just Fizz. Only champions that you have absolutely no chance of winning a trade with ever, where you're just going to resign yourself to farming under tower for 10-20 minutes.

What do you think your odds are of hitting your opponent mid with a given Q? Understand that the damage was not changed, but the CD was increased. Now balance that against permanent AP. Veigar now has to farm against everybody, but even that's a challenge because of his vulnerability, as outlined above.

Trídent3 votes

True, the Q also forces him under tower in some situations and partially in the rest, but I feel E is the main factor

Veigar still lost trades pre-nerf, and E was what allowed Veigar to prevent all ins. If you were able to be bursted, you could just plop down E, poke them, then run/stay when they went all-in, depending on the situation.

Ofc, Fizz is a different case. He's like the number 1 counter to Veigar..... so he's "special" He can mobility your Q and W, troll pole your E, and also troll pole your ult.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

Also going to put out there that I'm very rarely forced under tower as Veigar, and when I am, that's when my jungler comes in and we get an easy kill with my stun. Apparently that makes me a noob playing against other noobs, but I'm okay with that. Clearly y'all are on some next level shit, I look forward to seeing your names in the LCS. OH WAIT I WON'T.

Trídent3 votes

I never said I was forced under tower often. I was responding to Ovion, with reasons why he might be forced under.

Mr. Tree, I've never called you a noob or anything suggesting so >.< I'm not even ranked, just giving out my opinion like you are >.< </3

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

I never said I was forced under tower often. I was responding to Ovion, with reasons why he might be forced under.

Mr. Tree, I've never called you a noob or anything suggesting so >.< I'm not even ranked, just giving out my opinion like you are >.< </3

That wasn't specifically addressed to you, tbh. My b, you were just the last person to post about being forced under tower.

Fixed.

Trídent3 votes

<3

MrButtermancer1 votes

Q could especially keep Vladimir and Yasuo on their toes enough (just throwing one occasionally to keep them from being full HP) to prevent the all-in from ever happening. Yeah... E could stop an all-in, but Qs in the right places and times could prevent it entirely. It could also annoy Heimerdinger (who can now hide behind turrets because unit collision).

Don't forget that although E used to land instantly, it did have a casting time. That casting time was still long enough for a Death Lotus to hit hard, and champions like Kat and LeBlanc do their damage when they close, not after.

Don't underestimate the Q!

Celosar1 votes

Well said sir/ma'am. +1

ShuffledPancake5 votes

Wait, did you just say if you chuck the w in the middle of your e it will still hit them if they go to the side? no it wont. it only hits in the middle and them if they stay in the middle.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

Wait, did you just say if you chuck the w in the middle of your e it will still hit them if they go to the side? no it wont. it only hits in the middle and them if they stay in the middle.

You're right. My bad, but regardless it's still an incredibly easy ability to land when they're inside of a cage that lasts 3 seconds and stuns for 2.25 on the edges.

SirPacifista1 votes

You're right. My bad, but regardless it's still an incredibly easy ability to land when they're inside of a cage that lasts 3 seconds and stuns for 2.25 on the edges.

Yes, thats true if they are complete movement cripple without boots, every nearly decent player is able to evade that.

Also if you say hes fine like that, why havent you played him at least ONCE ranked this season? a bit hypocritic to say hes fine, and then you dont even play him ranked.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, thats true if they are complete movement cripple without boots, every nearly decent player is able to evade that.

Also if you say hes fine like that, why havent you played him at least ONCE ranked this season? a bit hypocritic to say hes fine, and then you dont even play him ranked.

I don't really play ranked often anymore. Been doing these tourneys that match you with other players based on your rank, so by staying at gold 3 I get put on teams with a diamond/some plats as opposed to being the plat with the gold teammates. Also, I often find myself first or second pick when I do go mid, picking viegar before the enemy picks their mid isn't really a great idea. Sure, I can probably still do well, but why gimp myself when I can go with a safer pick like Ziggs or Anivia? I'm claiming Veigar is still good, not that he doesn't have bad match ups or that he's an autowin. Regardless, even against good players I can hit the W at least 75% of the time.

Trídent4 votes

paragraphs pls mr.tree

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

paragraphs pls mr.tree

Ask and ye shall receive.

Trídent3 votes

<33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333

I feel Veigar's mostly fine(needs help), but not entirely for your reasons You shouldn't use W to harass in lane without blue, because EWQ takes up WAY too much mana

If you cage people during teamfights, in all the commotion, they won't notice it until it's too late. Most of them will get stunned running, while the rest are displaced.

ShuffledPancake2 votes

I wish they didnt do that to he is though, i kinda hate it.. he isnt an average he is lower then average (like brand)

Midder Scray1 votes

I totally agree, I think he's fine the way he is. I don't play Veigar too often, but occasionally yeah, and if you play him right, he's still really good. The problem is everyone's still upset over the fact that he used to be a poke champ but now he's a farm champ early game, and then he becomes bursty mid or late game. But not everyone realizes that for some strange reason. I say they just need to get over it and quit bitching, because he's totally fine

SirPacifista1 votes

No no, the reason why hes bad is explained quite good, you could for example listen to anyone from lcs (jeah the ones who KNOW this, because they earn their money with this game)

or from CrestKnight (some random dude, but he explained it good, and i didnt wanted to write much) (he wortet hat 21 days ago, so the data is not 100% actual)

{quoted}

veigar has < 30% win rate in master+ since patch 5.4, 0% in the last month (picked 4x and won 0).

its because people recognize his weaknesses at that level (to dive champions and poke(no regen/spell vamp and low health pool)... and assassins) and people who are capable of forcing him out of lane entirely to miss cs, it severely gimps him when he doesn't have his farm.

its so easy to deny a veigar or just towerdive and pop him from 100-0.

because his stun isn't instant, he can not do anything other than flash, tower intimidation, team peels, or die. there is no wiggle room, he has no outplay mechanic. he is team reliant now more than ever.

this should clear things up - dabox quit. bjergsen who occasionaly played veigar in ranked hasn't played him at all since 5.4, has stated who the meta champs were (zed and viktor being the strongest) and urgot was a niche pick to counter those dive assassins, and several others were sub par but could accomplish things. veigar didn't make the list (among 15mid laners he mentioned).

other players like scarra, hotshotgg, pobelter, faker, XWX, all have stopped playing him entirely.

Trídent2 votes

The main thing was that DaBox quit

:,c RIP

Riot should obviously know they did something wrong if they made a Challenger player quit because of "buffs" to their main champion.

Lugg1 votes

I completely agree that the nerf to his stun had to happen. There was zero counterplay to it.

HOWEVER, with such a huge nerf, he needs some love elsewhere. The simple thing to do is lower the delay on his W. This and the fact that so many mids are OP right now.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

{quoted}

I completely agree that the nerf to his stun had to happen. There was zero counterplay to it.

HOWEVER, with such a huge nerf, he needs some love elsewhere. The simple thing to do is lower the delay on his W. This and the fact that so many mids are OP right now.

Meh, if anything I'd give him a higher AP ratio on his ult. 1.2 was nice, they didn't have to nerf it. If they don't wanna do that, bump his Q up from .6 to .7 or something.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

You know what? I'm just going to say that Veigar is a champion that I enjoy playing, more so now than before his rework. On top of him being fun for me, I also do quite well with him.

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