All Veigar needs now is his W delay to be reasonable

Kingsgrave·Mar 26, 2015·13 votes·1,746 views

.25 second cast time + 1.25 second delay is just super unreliable

.625 delay (Brand W and Cho'Gath Q) cast time would make him worlds better

Even better if the cast time and delay start at the same time like the change they did with his E

43 Comments

The5lackerMar 26, 20156 votes

The problem is then he has an ability which reliably hits like a freight train on PCP. He'd have to pay for that with a hit to his AP ratio on that thing.

I mean, lets all be honest. 320 (+100% AP) was a tad excessive in the first place, but with the reliability changes I'd say losing 20% AP in exchange for being able to actually hit with the damn thing would be fair, wouldn't you?

KingsgraveMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The problem is then he has an ability which reliably hits like a freight train on PCP. He'd have to pay for that with a hit to his AP ratio on that thing.

I mean, lets all be honest. 320 (+100% AP) was a tad excessive in the first place, but with the reliability changes I'd say losing 20% AP in exchange for being able to actually hit with the damn thing would be fair, wouldn't you?

.75 delay is still super easy to dodge, it's just not as easy. I don't think lowering damage needs to be done.

It's also his main source of wave clear and lowering damage on it hurst him too much.

AbyssphereMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The problem is then he has an ability which reliably hits like a freight train on PCP. He'd have to pay for that with a hit to his AP ratio on that thing.

I mean, lets all be honest. 320 (+100% AP) was a tad excessive in the first place, but with the reliability changes I'd say losing 20% AP in exchange for being able to actually hit with the damn thing would be fair, wouldn't you?

It reliably hit before, when used with E. Obviously they could never make his W something that will consistently hit people because that'd be insane, but the move was designed to be used in conjunction with his E and now that his E doesn't fulfill the purpose of setting up his W anymore, it's essentially a broken ability.

I think the delay should be reduced. Not as much as the OP suggests but a 0.75 second delay would imo be pretty fair. If not that then they really need to do something like increasing the radius it hits so that his E sets it up again if you trap someone inside the cage. IMO that'd be the best move, because it'd actually give purpose to his E if it doesn't stun, as well as keeping basically the only combo he's ever had (E > W) in his kit.

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 26, 20151 votes

The thing is, though, that his stun has NO damage on it. Compare that to champions like brand, swain, xerath, etc., whose CCs also have damage attached. It's only fair if his W gets a boost in damage as a result of no damage on the E (and a mediocre scaling on Q).

JustMyBassCannonMar 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Compare that to champions like brand, swain, xerath, etc., whose CCs also have damage attached.

Brand's stun only applies to one target, and it's on a skill shot instead of an AoE. Swain's snare doesn't stop spells/attacks and has a smaller radius than Veigar's E. Xerath's stun is a single-target skill shot like Brand, and his slow is such a tiny AoE.

The fact that Veigar's E doesn't deal damage does not get past the fact that it creates a Dash-proof, 2.5-second stun wall with a rather large AoE and an acceptable casting range of 700.

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 26, 20152 votes

Stunning someone is not very useful without sufficient damage to follow it up. A full spell rotation needs to have at least a certain amount of damage attached to it, which is why nearly every CC in the game is accompanied by a damage value.
Radius is not an appropriate comparison, as you are not stunned or snared within the majority of the E's "radius." You could make the E's radius be 30,000, and it would be virtually useless.
All the spells you mentioned are all on far lower CD's with lower mana costs than Veigar E.
All the spells synergize with the champions' kits in a beneficial way, in addition to doing significant damage on their own. Swain's snare holds the enemy in place for his ulti and his E to do their full damage. Brand's applies his passive burn. Xerath's holds the enemy in place for him to land his Q or ultimate. Trapping someone in an E does nothing for Veigar other than buy him time to run away (unless you are against a champion with a blink, in which case there is literally nothing you can do). It is easy to both dodge the W and retaliate against veigar even while you are inside the cage. In a 1v1 situation, it is quite useless.

JustMyBassCannonMar 26, 20151 votes

While stunning one person without damage to follow up isn't very useful on your own, remember that Veigar's E can stun multiple enemies in a very large radius.
Actually, the radius is a fantastic comparison, when you realize that Veigar isn't the only champion in League of Legends with AoE.
And all the spells you mentioned, in turn, are weaker CC than Veigar's E with shorter range.
Trapping people in Veigar's E synergizes with him and his team, as it traps people. It's like a psychological Jarvan ultimate that uses Thresh's and Azir's ult mechanics to hold people in. If you fail to see the use in trapping units, you might not be thinking in the scope of "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena"

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 26, 20152 votes

He needs to be balanced as a solo laner as well as a team fighter. I'll mention it again--virtually every single CC ability in the game has damage values attached. Azir wall has damage values attached. Morgana's CC's all have damage values attached. Amumu ultimate has damage values attached. When a champion has an ability without a damage value attached, it is compensated elsewhere. Anivia is a perfect example of this--she has her wall, but gets a double damage bonus on her E when it is used in conjunction with the rest of her kit (350 + 100% AP, more damage than Veigar W), in addition to a near double damage bonus on her Q if you manage to hit them with both parts of it.
Radius is not at all a good comparison. Would you rather have a 10,000 radius swain snare or a 10,000 radius Veigar E? The swain snare would be the most broken ability in the game; the veigar cage would be completely useless. You can't compare radius when the two abilities are fundamentally different.
The spells I mentioned are slightly weaker CC (in comparison to old Veigar cage, not new veigar cage--they are stronger CC than the new cage), but having lower CDs, lower mana costs, AND damage added is more than fair compensation. CC accomplishes nothing without damage to follow it up (which is where the high damage Veigar W is supposed to come in).
As I mentioned, the cage does not synergize with Veigar's kit at all in it's current state--and this is what needs to be fixed. Even while inside the cage, it is still easy to avoid the W, and it does nothing for your Q or R either. Examples of real synergy are: Xerath's E holding the target in place for a guaranteed Q hit, Malzahar ult holding the enemy in place for the full pool damage, Swain snare holding them in place for the full bird/ult damage, etc. It increases the value you can get out of the rest of your kit. Since Veigar E does not do this, it needs to be fixed.

JustMyBassCannonMar 26, 20151 votes

Yes, every champion needs to be balanced as a laner and team-fighter. Some champions excel at one and suck at the other (for example, compare Wukong and Renekton, or Fiddlesticks and Xerath, or Caitlyn and Vayne). And Veigar is compensated as a laner for his stun not dealing damage; he's the only AP caster who gains extra AP for CSing.
This is a straw man's argument, as you are using numbers that are totally irrelevant to the actual comparison. If such numbers existed, I doubt I would have played the game, as such mechanics could make it unplayable. In reality, back where Swain's snare has 125 radius and Veigar's stun has 375 radius, they have different purposes due to their design. Veigar's is much stronger in zoning than Swain's, as it covers a much larger circle. If you're outside, you can't walk through it, and if you're inside, you can't walk out of it. Veigar's E is much better at either forcing the enemy to disengage, or at trapping enemies for allies' skill shots/AoEs, as it lasts longer and covers much more area.
They aren't stronger than Veigar's current E. They are on par with it. They have damage, lower CD and mana costs, but on the other hand, they have shorter ranges and most of them can't hit multiple champions. I think I saw Swain's W hit two guys once. And you're acting like Veigar doesn't have damage to follow it up.
The cage doesn't have perfect synergy with his kit, but it does have synergy. A mid-range caster needs some means of controlling an area, and Veigar's E controls a huge area.

It would not be unreasonable for Veigar's W to deal lower damage as compensation for being reliable outside of a combo with his E.

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 27, 20151 votes

Okay, first off, I don't think making his W reliable outside of his E is a good way to balance him. I think we might be arguing about different things. As I posted elsewhere in the thread, what he needs is some interaction between his W and his E. As it stands, there is no synergy between his E and any of his other spells. With the old veigar, you could land the stun on the edge, and as a result it would allow you to land the W, while also preventing the enemy from attacking you back briefly. Now that hitting them directly on the edge is all but impossible, the goal should be to trap them within the cage. But the problem is that, even while inside the cage, they can still dodge the W, and they can still retaliate against you (which, in conjunction with the W not connecting, means you will lose the trade quite hard). As is, the cage serves veigar no purpose whatsoever other than a shitty way to run away from his opponent, and it still only accomplishes that if he aims it perfectly and the enemy has no dash or blink.

JustMyBassCannonMar 27, 20151 votes

We might be. I'm arguing the case for the original post, plus 5lacker's post on which this entire comment chain was made.

And you keep saying that Veigar's E does not synergize with his kit, but the only other thing you've said about it is that it's harder to stun people with the edge, and people inside of it can dodge his W.

It does not synergize perfectly with his kit. That doesn't mean it has no synergy. A good player can still make use of these abilities, especially when they work with their teammates.

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 27, 20151 votes

I don't think you understand what synergy is. Yes, the stun still does things, but it does not have any direct relationship with his other spells, in the way that the skillsets of the other champions I've mentioned do. It's just a random ability tacked onto his kit as it currently stands. It does not increase the potency of his w, q, or r, as do most other champions CCs. Morgana's another example--the Q allows the W to get maximum value. Her ult also enables the Q to land more easily. It all functions coherently. Right now veigar is just 4 abilities duct taped together--each ability does nothing special for the others. The E needs to be changed so that it enables the W in some manner.

JustMyBassCannonMar 27, 20151 votes

I disagree. Veigar's E synergizes with his kit. It makes his Q and W easier to land, and it allows him to use his R without retaliation.

It doesn't emphasize his kit, as you point out with Morgana. Morgana's Q makes her W more effective, and it allows her to land her R easily on a specific target. Her R makes her W easier to use, and makes her Q easier to land.

Anivia's E dealing bonus damage to targets slowed by her Q or R is another example of emphasis. So is Malzahar using his R with his W. So is Wukong using his Q before his R.

Emphasis is synergy, but synergy does not need to be emphasis.

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 27, 20151 votes

Okay, maybe the cage makes it marginally easier to land a W or Q. That's debateable, but whatever. It still is very weak synergy at best, and is still strictly reliant on your opponents making mistakes (failing to notice the W), rather than any skill on your own part. This is a far cry from the way that most other champions' kits work together.

Creating some additional synergy between the W and E would provide a much needed buff to veigar, make him more rewarding to play (doing well based solely on the errors your opponents make is no fun), and make him a more interesting champion all at the same time, so I don't see why anyone would argue against it.

JustMyBassCannonMar 27, 20151 votes

If you think I'm arguing against better synergy, you might be reading a completely different argument.

All I've done is point out that Veigar's kit synergizes, and it uses different tools than other champions with which you compared to him.

What would you do, instead of making it so Dark Matter doesn't rely on Event Horizon to land? If it just had a reasonable delay, it might need a minor damage nerf, like when Rumble's Q got nerfed after they made it reliable. If you're so hard-set against nerfing the damage slightly for the sake of a delay closer to Brand or Cho'gath instead of Soraka, tell me what you would do to make it synergize better.

Give it a wider AoE, so it's harder to avoid in E? Make it functionally different, somehow? What would you do?

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 27, 20151 votes

It seemed like you were arguing that there was sufficient synergy as is, which I don't agree with. If that's not the case, my apologies.

Regardless, there are lots of ways to go about it, either centered around changing the E or changing the W. For the E, two suggestions that I've seen are to either add a slow inside the circle, or to make the stun instantaneous on the part of the circle closest to veigar, and gradually move around until the full circle is closed off. This would limit his ability to stun people at long range, but give him some sort of immediate response to people close to him.

But the most interesting way to change him, imo, would be to add specific W effects when cast within the circle of the E, like greater AOE (this one is probably the best idea), greater damage, reduced delay, or some combination of these. You could even add a charge system (like with smite) with reduced damage for multiple hits on the same target.

DanofDemaciaMar 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The problem is then he has an ability which reliably hits like a freight train on PCP. He'd have to pay for that with a hit to his AP ratio on that thing.

I mean, lets all be honest. 320 (+100% AP) was a tad excessive in the first place, but with the reliability changes I'd say losing 20% AP in exchange for being able to actually hit with the damn thing would be fair, wouldn't you?

xD these veigar mains are ridiculous. If you give it the cast time of brands w or chos q dont expect it to have 320 base damage and 80 ap scaling. Itll probs go don to like 340 and 60 ap scaling.

GodhriMar 26, 20153 votes

I like it as it is.

Lord MaliceMar 26, 20153 votes

I say they just need to replace his event horizon with an ability that is usefull to the the skill of the player playing veigar, I mean you only land stuns when the other person makes a mistake, not based on your skill. That's inherently not fun to play.

KingsgraveMar 26, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Malice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=25YcIIFN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-26T05:06:58.845+0000)

I say they just need to replace his event horizon with an ability that is usefull to the the skill of the player playing veigar, I mean you only land stuns when the other person makes a mistake, not based on your skill. That's inherently not fun to play.

You have to either time an ability or land it. This isn't that card game War where you always get hit or always hit someone. The act of landing a stun on someone takes skill and timing, all they added was the ability for the enemy to react.

Lord MaliceMar 26, 20152 votes

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that if a person is skilled enough that they can reliably land Event Horizon? Or were you agreeing with me?

If you're saying that it can be landed reliably with skill, I would please ask that you explain how to do it.

KingsgraveMar 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Malice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=25YcIIFN,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-03-26T19:28:01.195+0000)

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that if a person is skilled enough that they can reliably land Event Horizon? Or were you agreeing with me?

If you're saying that it can be landed reliably with skill, I would please ask that you explain how to do it.

There is a delay and you have to lead them into it. You have to actually guess where they are going to go instead of just placing an instant 2.5 second stun on them. I would say that the new stun takes more skill and people are just salty about it.

Lord MaliceMar 26, 20152 votes

So the skill in landing my stun is based on my guessing abilities and not on my aiming abilities. I didn't know that clairvoyance was a skill required to play league well. I GUESS I'll have to work on that. In the mean time can you actually explain how to skillfully and reliably land his stun?

KingsgraveMar 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Malice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=25YcIIFN,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-26T19:52:16.653+0000)

So the skill in landing my stun is based on my guessing abilities and not on my aiming abilities. I didn't know that clairvoyance was a skill required to play league well. I GUESS I'll have to work on that. In the mean time can you actually explain how to skillfully and reliably land his stun?

Its not even fucking different than it was before, there is just a delay now.

Lord MaliceMar 26, 20152 votes

It's ok man, calm down. I know it's hard to admit when you don't know something, if you can't explain how to skillfully and reliably land Veigar's stun just say it. I promise you'll feel better. If it's not different than before then why did they change it at all?

KingsgraveMar 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Malice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=25YcIIFN,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-26T20:10:31.080+0000)

It's ok man, calm down. I know it's hard to admit when you don't know something, if you can't explain how to skillfully and reliably land Veigar's stun just say it. I promise you'll feel better. If it's not different than before then why did they change it at all?

You place it down and guess where they are going to go.

Are you really that bad with skillshots?

Lord MaliceMar 26, 20151 votes

Again, how can someone reliably GUESS where they need to place an ability. IT seems that you think that "skill shots" are actually "guess shots". Well I highly doubt that ppl who are better than me at this game are all just better Guessers. I can however reliably AIM where my ability needs to be, but since they added the delay and the warning animation to his E that means that my opponent no longer needs to GUESS where he should go but instead KNOWS where to go to dodge it. Are you really this bad with logic?

KingsgraveMar 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Malice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=25YcIIFN,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-26T20:23:41.844+0000)

Again, how can someone reliably GUESS where they need to place an ability. IT seems that you think that "skill shots" are actually "guess shots". Well I highly doubt that ppl who are better than me at this game are all just better Guessers. I can however reliably AIM where my ability needs to be, but since they added the delay and the warning animation to his E that means that my opponent no longer needs to GUESS where he should go but instead KNOWS where to go to dodge it. Are you really this bad with logic?

So now you have to aim better? Oh man so nerfed man riot what the fuck

Lord MaliceMar 26, 20152 votes

Ok so, you think that I just need to "aim" better. Which is what you said in your first response, to which I politely asked you how. And you have yet to tell me how. Circular arguments are fun aren't they?

infinate 8sMar 26, 20151 votes

You do realize that Veigars stun works as a fear factor as well as an actual stun? By placing it around an enemy you trap them, or placing it behind you as you run will block them. Landing the stun around them is really forcing your enemy to choose between waiting it out or taking the risk of running through the walls, similar to Thresh's ult. Riot made the delay on his stun to try and get people to actually play him the way they intended, which is being able to control the enemy by forcing them to remain in an area or risk becoming completely defenseless. As for skills, his stun is not his main skillshot. That would be his w. Predicting where an enemy will run through your stun is the trick to hitting them spot on as the delay on the w makes it impossible to hit by aiming directly at your enemy.

Lord MaliceMar 26, 20153 votes

If by trap you mean putting the enemy in a nuetral position I agree, while within Veigar's circle your opponent has the room to dodge both your Q and your W, and of course they can cast all their abilities as well. Fear factor? I don't think so. And to say that Veigar was intended to be a "zone control" mage and not a 100-0 burst mage is to say that his original designers were completely incompetent. Cause oh man did they ever miss that mark. And again "predicting" sounds a lot like "Guessing". How can you predict what your opponent will do when they get a Visual warning of what you're about to do and then get enough time to do something about it? It means you need to rely on your opponents poor judgement and not your own personal skill. Hence a skill that is not fun to use.

air tigerMar 26, 20151 votes

There's little in the way of risk when it comes to them choosing to stay in the walls. W's area of effect is small in comparison to E's, and Q can now be blocked by minion waves. So, currently I agree that it feels as though Riot wants E to be a cage of terror, yet I don't think anyone I've played against that get's caught inside E is actually fearful. Either A: They're ranged, and win the trade by easily dodging W/Q, B: They're melee, and just dodge W/Q, or C: They have a blink, uh oh. On top of that, with a reduc in ratio for R, Veigar is not getting kills when it feels like he actually should be getting kills.

I appreciate that Riot is continuing to adjust his 'rework,' and I hope they get it right before moving on. As of now, Veigar is boring and a subpar pick.

infinate 8sMar 27, 20151 votes

Ah yes, I will completely agree that he's not an ideal pick atm sadly :< (I used to main him) but he still is slightly better than what you give him credit for. I agree, against a melee champion he is complete trash but he was not intended for that, his purpose is to wreak havoc on other mages. The general traits of a mage: They do not have very high mobility unless it is in their kit, and even then those have cool downs. Now, the trick is to set up a stun wall when their abilities are on cool down then w over where they should likely be. That low mobility will prevent them from dodging it if you have leveled w enough and if they try to use an ability to get out they will be stunned as his stun prevents most mobility abilities from getting away without being stunned Then you Q-R-Q ignite and congrats! That should be a kill. In regard to blink champions: Yup it sucks.. his stun is completely useless against them xD but you can still outplay by baiting their ability ahead of time

bottom line: Since I am not a LoL god I usually just pick him to punish the people who play teemo mid

Veigar item 1026 Teemo RIP

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 26, 20151 votes

It's extremely different. If the enemy player is paying attention, it's literally impossible to land directly. It's like a skillshot, but slower and with the entire path that the skillshot is going to take lit up so your opponent knows exactly where to move. You can only really hope to catch them inside it, but that doesn't do you very much good.

air tigerMar 26, 20152 votes

It is different than it was before. Besides the delay, they added warning particles. You are saying that we are supposed to lead an enemy champ into a stun wall that has a delay and is clearly defined to the enemy before it appears. I think, from this understanding, that the skill is now dependent on the enemy making a mistake rather than on Veigar's skill in landing it.

CindikleMar 26, 20153 votes

I'd say his W is fine. If he needs buffs give him E something for those inside of it.

Make his Q travel through his E with no loss in # of hits. Continuing through the other side with no loss of travel distance. This adds another level of skillful play as he can Q into an E to extend it's range. But at a fairly high cost.
Make his W's splash damage inside of the wall deal 50% damage to those not hit by the main spell. This will not effect those who are stunned by the wall. Making players take a choice of some damage or a long stun. This can also be based on W's rank. 10/20/30/40/50%. To make sure his early game stays weaker.

killd0zerMar 26, 20152 votes

HAHAHAH .65 delay on his W? That's beyond broken. ChoGath doesn't get free AP, nor can he afford to go glass cannon. Veigar isn't the same champion, it does massively more damage (in a realistic sense, not numerically) than any other delayed AoE.

It does like 1/2 of any squishy's Hp at level 9. That's just never happening. 0.9-1.0 is far more realistic.

skyfall619Mar 26, 20151 votes

keep the delay give it 2-3 charges

KingsgraveMar 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

keep the delay give it 2-3 charges

Not sure that is wise considering how much damage his W does already. Do we really want to make Veigar more like Ziggs but with more burst?

skyfall619Mar 26, 20151 votes

the dmg potential would be crazy but this would give him incentive to trap targets within the cage. target who are trapped will face a meteor shower within the cage but still are able to dodge due to the huge delay (counter play). right now now veigar gains nothing from trapping ppl in cage(other then to runaway), sense his kit is still focused on him landing a near impossible stun.

lower the dmg on w would be understandable

Pvt Yong TaiMar 26, 20151 votes

We can see from Kalista that Riot is okay with infinite stacks

Why not infinite stacks on W
Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar Veigar pentaezgg

LoRdJeSuS6969420Mar 26, 20151 votes

I don't think this is a good way to balance him. Before, his E and W had a nice interaction where, if you landed the E it would set you up for a W. Now that you can only really hope to "trap" them inside the E rather than actually stun them, the W can't land. Just making the W a standalone ability seems silly, as his kit will just be a bunch of random pieces duct taped together. It should still work in tandem with the E somehow. I think one of the best ways to fix it would be to make it so that the W gets some sort of bonus effect when cast inside the E (falls instantly, covers a wider area, gets bonus damage, or something along those lines).

whatsblackandbluMar 26, 20151 votes

I dont think there is a problem with his dark matter, its hard to hit but is very rewarding, and you just simply need to use event horizon to hit it. But we cant hit event horizon, its a figure problem, cut .15 of a sec and see what happens, .35 delay is not unreasonable.