Its hilarious that boards will hate "stat check" champs but hate their reworks even more

Moody P·Nov 15, 2018·3 votes·2,160 views

the former is super unhealthy / binary / antifun / low elo trigger word here

Riot reworks the champion according to your whims and your whines, but you hate it even more when the champion in question actually gets rewarded for doing something. Akali is actually threatening now? Heresy! Irelia rewarded for her skillshots? Toxic! Overloaded! One piece of the rework you don't like makes the WHOLE REWORK TERRIBLE. LOL.

Almost as if you want their reworks to be equally as limited as they were before but with the added punishment of unreliable skillshots - because lets be honest, if it isn't massively delayed for you, you won't be able to dodge it, and that's anti fun isn't it?

Can't wait for your reaction to Kayle. :)

33 Comments

DrCyanideNov 15, 20188 votes

Going from "stat checker" to "your survival depends on me messing up" isn't much improvement for overall game health.

Now, I haven't played against updated Akali, but when I played against updated Irelia it very much felt like I had zero options if she got within 700-600 units of me. She'd throw down the cage or land the (very fast) stun, and my immobile squishy champion would be unable to escape certain death. Granted I was never in the lane against her, and this was a few months ago, so things could be different by now, but those games with an Irelia in them had to be some of the most miserable I've ever played.

Moody PNov 15, 20183 votes

you get one or the other, mate. either your numbers are worse and you die or you don't dodge the skill shots and die

Irelia being OP doesn't make her a poorly designed champion. it just means she's OP

DrCyanideNov 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=24xgNwmy,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-11-15T13:56:50.218+0000)

you get one or the other, mate. either your numbers are worse and you die or you don't dodge the skill shots and die

Didn't feel like an "or" when I went against Irelia, it felt like an "and". If a skillshot moves fast enough, or has a wide enough hit box to hit you almost every time, it hitting you or not is primarily determined by the person firing, not your dodging.

All skillshots have some trade off in that regard, but a skillshot feels bad to play against when it is extremely powerful and extremely easy to hit.

Irelia being OP doesn't make her a poorly designed champion. it just means she's OP

Agreed. What remains to be seen is what state she's in when not OP.

ZackTheWaffleManNov 15, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Going from "stat checker" to "your survival depends on me messing up" isn't much improvement for overall game health.

It depends on how easy it is for said champion to mess up. Riven Azir Ryze Fiora Rengar (top only) are very hard champs, and thus should be rewarded for not messing up.

On the other hand, there are Jax Irelia MasterYi Udyr etc. that are much harder to mess up fatally on.

DrCyanideNov 15, 20182 votes

That begs the question: Are champions who's performance varies so wildly between low/average play (Bronze/Silver/Gold) and high level play (Diamond/Master/Challenger/LCS) good for the overall game health?

In general, I expect the skill of two players in a game to be about equal and to cancel each other out. I expect Gold Xerath players to be better at aiming their Q's than Bronze Xerath players, but I also expect Gold players in general to be better at dodging Xerath Q's than Bronze players, evening out that advantage. The same principle applies to everything in the game, be it warding/clearing wards, taking/defending objectives, etc.

So when I see champions that are balanced around being "very hard" and "don't mess up", I'm left wondering what skills their opponent is suppose to have to counter that. As someone starts learning a hard champion, what's their opponent suppose to learn to keep pace? Or are they just expected to give up because there's nothing they can do because they aren't playing a "very hard" champion that can keep up potential wise?

ankoanko19Nov 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It depends on how easy it is for said champion to mess up. (top only) are very hard champs, and thus should be rewarded for not messing up.

On the other hand, there are etc. that are much harder to mess up fatally on.

It's easy to fail on Irelia. Miss your ult or E and you fail. Simple. How is it hard to fail on Ryze? Dude clicks W and you cant move. Toplane Ryze is so fucking easy on someone who knows how to play him.

Death by GlamourNov 15, 20187 votes

you made a thread QQing about irelia not two days ago and you didn't even know what her abilities actually did

what people want is for irelia not to be a pseudo assassin and for akali not to restore energy when she uses shroud

Moody PNov 15, 20182 votes

not knowing the numbers per rank =/= not knowing the ability. don't think that needs explaining

EleshakaiNov 15, 20185 votes

"Oh my god, you were complaining when it was -40 outside, now we made it 110 and you're still complaining"

There is a middle ground. If they go from stat check to ridiculously overloaded kit, then yes, complaining is justified.

Moody PNov 15, 20181 votes

Akali isn't overloaded unless she's compared to Volibear, so I guess your complaining isn't justified

EleshakaiNov 15, 20181 votes

Akali's not QUITE as bad. Akali's 'overload' is more that she has too much forgiveness for mistakes on her part with how much sustain she has, how long her shroud lasts, and how quick she re-enters it.

Hayaishi2Nov 15, 20184 votes

I wish every champion was rewarded like Irelia for "hitting skillshots"

Moody PNov 15, 20181 votes

is this the part where we confuse being overtuned with being poorly designed or the part where we all say mages are totes weak bro and that they don't have better CC with even more obscene burst on their "skillshots" and it's unfair that a fighter has a kit remotely as strong as theirs

Hayaishi2Nov 15, 20181 votes

Call it what you want "overtuned" "poorly designed" "toxic" but Irelia is infinitely better at pretty much everything than most fighters or champions are. Mobility, waveclear, utility, cc. I'll be surprised if that can actually be fixed without making irelia garbage her kit is bullshit beyond nunbers. Which it probably can't so we are gonna be stuck with a Kalista by the time Riot is done with her.

If they ever decide its time to balance her that is.

Moody PNov 15, 20181 votes

that's not true at all. irelia has good in fight mobility but her map presence pales in comparison to proper roamers like Hecarim

the only issue with her damage is trinity force which has needed addressing for a while; her utility is arguably closer to what fighters should actually have unless you would rather they all look like Garen - most fighters are far worse designs than Irelia, and if when they hit meta strength again we'll surely be reminded of it.

Italia can easily be fixed with numbers. Blame the balance team for sleeping on the job

Horse GrenadesNov 15, 20183 votes

Post on your main, my dude. lol

People can hate multiple things. Reworks and new champs tend have overloaded kits and are good at too many things.

Moody PNov 15, 20182 votes

Overloaded is a non-phrase. they are the new normal and this has been the normal for years.

Old champions (old fighters) are underloaded compared to the rest of the game

Horse GrenadesNov 15, 20182 votes

Oh shit, everyone!

Moody P ( who still won't post from his main) has announced to all that "overloaded" is a non-phrase and shall no longer be used. However, he may use the phrase "underloaded" to describe old champions.

Moody PNov 15, 20181 votes

you can feel free to provide an argument at your leisure

Horse GrenadesNov 15, 20182 votes

There is no argument it's just logic.

Irelia- Overloaded.

WW- Balanced with appropriate and clear strengths and weaknesses..

If something can be "underloaded" then something can also be "overloaded"

Why you live on a level 7 acct?

JbelsNov 15, 20182 votes

Every one of your threads I've seen so far has this tone of "I know something the boards doesn't, and they're dumb for thinking they do". I wonder why you get downvoted all the time...

Anyway, to address your thread: Statcheck champions are unilaterally hated because they feel unfair to play against. They beat you because their kits say they do. There's no actual skill investment. Old Irelia would get level 6, buy sheen, and then proceed to fuck you because what the hell are you supposed to do about 5+ sheen procs in rapid succession?

What does new Irelia do? Whittle you down with trades that are always unfavorable for you because more often than not, she will dictate the flow of the lane. Her kit gives her more options to start and end a trade on her terms. She gets sustain off of her Q (for when she trades poorly). She can initiate a trade extremely safely by stunning you from a safe distance. Her passive, while it can be used as an indicator of when you need to backoff, also stays on indefinitely as long as she keeps last hitting. The only way to beat an Irelia in lane is to be a bigger threat to her than she is to you. That isn't fun either. You're basically getting stat checked again, except this time it's her kit design checking you instead of abusing sheen procs.

Moody PNov 15, 20181 votes

There's no actual skill investment.

You say stuff like this and then wonder why I talk at you the way I do.

Old Irelia relied heavily on windows of power from her W and her R to win fights and beating her either by having superior stats even when they're up or by engaging on her when either/both are on cooldown. The only stat-stick champions that actually are fundamentally problematic are the ones who have no windows on their numbers to exploit or strategize around - and there's very few of those left in the game, most of which are rightfully kept out of the meta.

New Irelia puts far more control in your hands; interrupting her Q has far bigger penalty for her now, dodging her E as well. She trades the guaranteed damage her old ult used to give for potential damage and higher utility; yes, she is going to have more, because she traded away reliability for it.

This is what you people don't ever seem to get. You asked for exactly this to happen when you villainized the mere idea of stat checking, ignoring that this game is almost entirely revolving around numbers and how numbers interact. Everything you've asked removed (reduce stat checks, more mechanics, no binary champions) has directly resulted in everything new that you hate (generalists, "damage creep," etc.) You can have one or the other on your champions. There is no middle ground on this, only varying degrees in either direction.

JbelsNov 15, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=24xgNwmy,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-11-15T17:38:01.955+0000)

You say stuff like this and then wonder why I talk at you the way I do.

Old Irelia relied heavily on windows of power from her W and her R to win fights and beating her either by having superior stats even when they're up or by engaging on her when either/both are on cooldown. The only stat-stick champions that actually are fundamentally problematic are the ones who have no windows on their numbers to exploit or strategize around - and there's very few of those left in the game, most of which are rightfully kept out of the meta.

New Irelia puts far more control in your hands; interrupting her Q has far bigger penalty for her now, dodging her E as well. She trades the guaranteed damage her old ult used to give for potential damage and higher utility; yes, she is going to have more, because she traded away reliability for it.

This is what you people don't ever seem to get. You asked for exactly this to happen when you villainized the mere idea of stat checking, ignoring that this game is almost entirely revolving around numbers and how numbers interact. Everything you've asked removed (reduce stat checks, more mechanics, no binary champions) has directly resulted in everything new that you hate (generalists, "damage creep," etc.) You can have one or the other on your champions. There is no middle ground on this, only varying degrees in either direction.

No, no. You don't get to act like you predicted Riot would do this to Irelia and then treat us all like idiots for complaining about it after the fact.

New Irelia traded away reliabi...do you even fucking hear yourself? A person who understands the current version of Irelia will make sure you never get to play the damn laning phase. Lets assume you are playing a champion who CAN interupt her Q. How the fuck do you interrupt it when she stuns you every time before Qing on to you? FROM SAFE RANGE? That's the issue. SHE has agency in whether or not you beat her, not you.

Old Irelia's windows of power were "Weak pre-6, strong post 6, weak late game". Don't even try to tell me that's a healthy pattern

Moody PNov 15, 20182 votes

I didn't need to predict it; it's been happening since Sion, lol. Every VGU is much more loaded than their previous version. Why this needs to be argued is beyond me.

"blah blah i can't dodge." A skillshot is a skillshot. Old Irelia's windows were revolving around her W timer and cooldown and you beat her by engaging her during those cooldowns, the same way you fight almost any champion who has a strong stat-stick button. New Irelia, you can disrupt her Q resets, you can side step her E, you can walk forwards when she ults to prevent taking more damage and being disarmed. Yeah, seems a lot less reliable to me.

Old Irelia was fine; maybe not when she came out, but she's entirely reasonable for the point in time that matters. New Irelia is fine; her numbers are just too high somewhere. It's that simple.

Dr DogNov 15, 20182 votes

its almost like people dont like unfair champions with overloaded kits just as much gasp

InfernapeNov 15, 20181 votes

Kayle is keeping her AA focused playstyle though.

BjørnetjenestenNov 15, 20181 votes

You really think riot listens to the players?? No one asked for akali to have true stealth and 5 mobility spells in 1 kit.

DarukongSrNov 15, 20181 votes

You make a good point in that people constantly bitch and moan for a rework, then bitch and moan once one comes. While I think irelia is a little overloaded, small fixes would put her in place, and I mostly don't have an issue with akali rework besides maybe some numbers tuning such as less healing or something.

TormentulaNov 15, 20181 votes

Irelia went from a stat check to auto win regardless. There's nothing to stat check when there's just so much raw power and options thrown in a kit that also has too much defense. She's basically old irelia but better in every stat, and has more options during the laning phase than any champion should. Old irelia was considered overloaded and broken in the past, what the actual fuck is new irelia with double everything.

PhieldworkerNov 15, 20181 votes

It’s because it’s two different groups. One group is the ones that hate champs that just need to survive a game until 15 min and than can auto their way to victory while the other are the group that mained said champ.

Spicy RiceNov 15, 20181 votes

People don't care that she is rewarded for hitting her skill shots.

People care that hitting her skill shots means that you instantly lose unless you can stat check her.

Doesn't mean she is badly designed, but that her numbers need to be adjusted, hopefully so that she is viable in top, but not good enough to be taken mid.