Thornmail is worthless

The Ecdysiast··4 votes·1,837 views

Edit: Worth Less than every other possible option

First, a stat and gold breakdown: Not counting its passives, Thornmail is only 74% gold efficient. Compare that to Randuin's 78% (not even counting the crit reduction), or Sunfire's 80% (not counting the fact it deals more damage and doesn't require the enemy be auto-attacking you), which both cost the same amount.

Thornmail provides only 450 total Effective Health compared to Sunfire's 680 and Randuin's 640 Pretty big difference in base stats for items with the same cost, both more gold efficient than Thornmail.


Now, let's look at the passives: Thorns -- No longer reflects damage based on the damage of the attack, so you need to have your own 90% increase (Rammus) to make it enough damage to be worth buying instead of Sunfire. +Grievous Wounds -- Great, if you have a way to force the enemy to auto-attack you. Otherwise, it's almost pointless to have a method of applying GW that the enemy is the one in control of. Cold Steel -- Most importantly, this actually counters the other passive. The slower the enemy attacks, the less damage you deal with the item. Might be pretty effective if you could stack it with Randuin's and Frozen Heart, but it's unique and anyone it might effect is likely building crit chance anyway, so you're better off with Randuin's.


There is only one champion that can purchase it effectively even among those champions who scale armor themselves: Rammus. And he has basically exactly the same damage on his passive plus a 50-90% increase in armor for it to scale, along with a taunt to actually make an enemy attack him to apply it at all. Compare that to Malphite and Taric, who should be able to buy it effectively while stacking armor, or even Shen and Galio who should be able to use their taunts for it, and it simply doesn't deal the damage it needs to to make it an efficient purchase. On every single one of them you'd be better off buying Sunfire and Morello to continuously apply GW to everyone in the area, since they all also scale more AP than they do armor.


You can discuss possible solutions for this in the comments. I think changing it back to a percent of the incoming damage would be a big help, and/or giving it adequate base stats, and/or replacing Cold Steel with a form of Grievous Wounds application that you can actually control yourself without a taunt.

8 Comments

AR URF2 votes

3 passives in one that are meant to counter ADC who are already weak. Yeah so useless.......

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Gives very little in stats, One of the passives contradicts the other, Even with the GW, a single lifesteal item completely negates the damage,

And by the point in the game where you can buy a thornmail, the adc is no longer weak. ADC's aren't weak right now, they simply had their spike pushed later in the game. That means nothing when thornmail is even less effective if you attempt to buy it as a first item on literally anyone including Rammus.

Then there's the fact you can buy Cleaver, Dominik's, and IE to completely negate the enemy's armor regardless of how high it is.

redniwediS3 votes

On paper three passives sounds strong, but the reality is it's a selfish tank item that doesn't effectively fill the role it is supposed to fill. The damage reflect isn't enough to make it threatening, the heal reduction isn't strong enough to stop modern sustain, and the attack speed slow is a joke at best.

Couple all this with mediocre defensive stats and you have an item that pretty much requires a rework. Just because it is designed to counter ADCs doesn't mean it actually counters them, that's just a comment on it's designed purpose.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

You said it very well.

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

All armor items are pretty worthless right now outside of Righteous Glory.

Colton1471 votes

Rammus Ok. item 3070

SwiftKitten881 votes

the damage reflect part is useless yes because it donesn't scale with the amount of damage done to you, but the rest of the item isn't

The Ecdysiast1 votes

As I pointed out, it provides 200 less hp than items that cost the same and have higher gold efficiency.

The Cold Steel reduces the effectiveness of the damage.

And the Grievous Wounds does nothing until the enemy turns to you, and even still is easily outdone by a single vampiric scepter.

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