Remember when ADCs were building lethality and supports weren't so heavily tied to enabling ADCS

HateDaddy··48 votes·2,923 views

And I would say things like "trust me, you don't want a meta where ADCs are building crit/lifesteal because crit builds scale infinitely better, barely ramp up slower than lethality and the damage a lethality ADC does to other squishies is roughly the same while lethality ADCs damage falls off against tanks." Remember that? Remember how everyone would lose their shit? Remember how I said the first thing that would happen in a crit ADC meta is supports would have their entire itemization changed to cater to ADCS. And remember how I said if you think you fast in a lethality meta, wait until you go to a crit meta where ADCs with IE and 80-100% crit + %pen will legit almost one shot other squishies and quickly DPS down the stronges tanks in mere seconds?

HateDaddy farms remembers. HateDaddy also remembers when he would be mocked for this and all of the boys and girls of gameplay would Baby rage at him for telling the simple truth.

To stop memeing for a moment now, I realize lethality had its issues. It was a stupid early game power spike for a few ADCs but at the very least, lethality ADCs not named Jhin fell off pretty hard compared to their crit counterparts. That's because even though it scales well with % armor pen, the reality is between items like ghost blade and non-DPS items, there were seriously very important windows of power ADCs had with lethality - when ghostblade was down, their DPS was significantly lower. They'd have to actually stack Black cleaver. Their damage wasn't fucking random. Crit based ADCs barely scale slower than lethality ADCs and yeah, some of that is because of supports. But why wouldn't a support build these items that enable their carries when the meta for carries is to build crit? Lethality didn't force supports to put all their eggs in one basket, crit certainly does.

Additionally, I understand that some of these items like ardent censor weren't as strong - but again, even before it was buffed ADCs were building crit and still stupid and supports still mostly itemized to enable strictly ADCs. At least during lethality metas, supports would build a mixture of team utility, damage and weren't tied to an ADCs hip strictly. If a support doesn't give its ADC its blood, sweat, tears and soul, they are playing a losing style.

Honestly, crit has to go. It's flawed concept. We have legit seen a style of play and meta where crit wasn't required or built at all and while it had its problem, the balance issues that stemmed from lethality pale in comparison to crit because crit is just so fucking superior. I don't even hate crit because of its pseudo-rng, I hate it because it is the best multiplicative scaling stat buffer in the game because it scales hard as fuck with two other two other multiplicative scaling stat buffers: attack speed and percentage penetration. Take any other damage arch, AP or AD alike ranging from fighter itemization to assassination itemization to mage itemization to tank itemization, it all fucking sucks compared to crit. This is why ADCs are mandatory. This is why ADCs are far superior. And this is why they will continue to be until this is addressed. And when we had a time where this wasn't built, people didn't realize it and still complained.

69 Comments

KONO RUBICK DA17 votes

remember when i said lethality adcs were healthier than crit adc, cuz you could outplay them and not getting rightclicked to death?

i remember too, and got downvoted except when it was about jhin cuz everyone praised him

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

The meta lethality ADCs were MF, Jhin, Varus, and Lucian. Only one of them did most of their damage from skill shots.

KONO RUBICK DA10 votes

if mf ult got stopped she lost the game varus lethality was basically piercing arrow which is avoidable lucian Q and ult are avoidable jhin W and ult could be both dodged (harder than now) and blocked by tanks

tell me more

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

MF wasn't going most of the damage from her ult, but from Q and AAs. Varus was the one dodgeable one Lucian Q and ult aren't really skill shots, and he still was mostly AA (due to passive) Jhin W wasn't a damage source, his Q and 4th auto were the main ones. Ult at that time was mainly used as a fight initiation.

Tell me more.

KONO RUBICK DA12 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGN6CAjSuCA

you absolutly have no idea how jhin worked if you think his W and ult weren't most of his damage in lethality meta

jhin literally played the game from 2000 range, with DFT and armor pen he could kill you with W+R, Q and AA were used like in 20% of the time LOL

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Are we watching the same video? Because in it's entirety, most of the time he's using W to layer CC (the few kills are when the person has barely any health). The ult "kills" are either with repeated shots or against low health targets, and most of the video is him getting half-health shots from autos or flashing forward to get the 4 bullet kills. You disproved your own points there.

Bladerunner777712 votes

How to acquire upvotes on the boards:

ADCs are OP

gib upboats

Dingding1234 votes

Because they actually are OP?

Hmm...

ModWulf Helhammer10 votes

Yes, the person who mains bruisers, tanks, and juggernauts is obviously going to give the best advice about how to balance ADCs. it's not like he has an inherent bias against the class that is designed to kill his class. I mean why else would he want ADCs to go back to a time where he admits they were much weaker against tanks?

xXRaichopXx5 votes

Why do you feel the need to always try to talk down to people because of what they main or what they say?

ModWulf Helhammer11 votes

Pardon?

And I point this out because it's obvious where a bias exists. This post would be the equivalent of me asking for buffs to my main Quinn, when she obviously doesn't need any right now.

Are ADCs a problem? As a whole? No, I don't believe so. There may be certain outliers that are too good right now with the current meta, but as a whole the class is not at fault. He's saying directly in his post that ADCs, a class designed to be able to take down tanks, should revert back to a build order that made them not very effective at killing tanks. What class stands to gain from this? Well, tanks. And what class does he main? Tanks again. It's a pattern that shows bias, and has no other point than just calling for unneeded nerfs (mind you, again in a way that would directly benefit OP)

And I don't "talk down" to people just for no reason. I point out flaws in their logic or reasoning. If having problems in your own argument shown to you counts as belittling, than that's your problem.

xXRaichopXx5 votes

Just because they main bruisers and tanks doesn't mean they can't have an opinion.

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

Of course they can have an opinion. It also means I am perfectly fine in pointing out where his opinion is flawed.

xXRaichopXx5 votes

Who are you to say his opinion is flawed?

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Because it is?

Can you provide any reason why it isn't obviously biased?

And besides that, if he has a right to an opinion, I don't have the right to say if it's flawed?

xXRaichopXx4 votes

You have no evidence that is is flawed, therefore it is not flawed.

Any opinion is right if there is evidence to support it.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

He. Has. Given. No. Evidence.

I have. Evidence that his opinion is flawed: he mains tanks and wants ADCs changed in a way to make them less effective against tanks, check. Evidence that crit is fine: it requires much more gold to be efficient than nearly any other stat, and that's to make even borderline effective, check (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1jLBvgI3-remember-when-adcs-were-building-lethality-and-supports-werent-so-heavily-tied-to-enabling-adcs?comment=00020001000000000001

So please, try and tell me I don't have evidence, or that his argument isn't flawed

Mecha Incognito2 votes

Oh boy, pointing out things that could be seen wrong in someone's opinion is so wrong. It might even start a discussion. God forbid that happens though, don't want no real conversations on these here boards.

ChaosThief5 votes

I think the issue is that they take down everything, not tanks. I wouldn't mind it as much if it took them just a little bit less time to kill squishier targets rather than tanks, but as it stands that's not the case. Or, hell, the opposite: they became squishy hunters but tanks would prove too difficult to take down.

(For clarification, let's just say hypothetically, it takes a marksmen 10 seconds to kill a tank. They would be able to kill a squishy champion in, say, 8 seconds instead.

In the second case, they could take down the squishies in let's say, 3 seconds. But tanks? They would be loading them full of auto attacks, and unless the tank didn't build any defense towards them, would take seemingly no damage.)

Mannny1 votes

I'd like to make a statement that they have the ability to take down things like assassins because of item 3504 not the ADC itself.

ChaosThief7 votes

I'm not going to blame an item when I die to a marksman alone, which is often the case of my frustration.

During the urf times, I got rengar and went after a lucian. I had half hp. Before I even landed on lucian, he autoattacked me twice and killed me.

He was typing.

It's incredibly frustrating that assassins have to risk so much to take out one of their intended targets. Mages are pretty much a joke unless you have something point and click or easy to aim (syndra's ult and orianna in general, for instance.) Get in range of a marksman and they'll tear you apart the moment you miss a spell, and versus someone like lucian or twitch, getting in range of them sometimes means you can't even land a spell on them.

Skorch2 votes

Im sorry, but you were either like 0/14/0 and he was really fed, or this simply didnt happen. That is far too off.

You know they added a replay system if it was recent URF...

ChaosThief1 votes

I did mention I was at half hp, didn't I? I'm not going to say "zomg lucian just took all my hp in one auto broken nurf pls" when that wasn't the case. Yes, he was fed, and I went in because he was on low hp and I thought I could kill him. Emphasis on "thought".

He had a good amount of attack speed, I would estimate it gave him ~2.0? So me taking a second to land on him when his character was surrounded by no enemies, while I was at half hp, with him having a few items and being semi fed? Yes, I partially deserved it. At the same time, I don't find it excusable to die to someone before I can even touch them, at half hp.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

TouchFluffyTail

Hmm...

my main Quinn

...

It's like I don't even know you anymore.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

Yes, the person who mains bruisers, tanks, and juggernauts is obviously going to give the best advice about how to balance ADCs. it's not like he has an inherent bias against the class that is designed to kill his class. I mean why else would he want ADCs to go back to a time where he admits they were much weaker against tanks?

I have very little bias actually

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

Care to explain how, when you are suggesting a change that would benefit no class but your own? You said so yourself how lethality ADCs and crit ADCs do basically the same damage to squishies. The difference is in how effective they are against tanks.

What other 'good' would come from a change like this? Structure damage remains largely the same, objective damage largely the same, squishy damage largely the same (if not more with lethality). Not every champion can make use of lethality, so you would be essentially removing more than half of the class pool (unless implemented with other large scale changes that would have no guarantee of making things any better or worse).

HateDaddy11 votes

{quoted}

Care to explain how, when you are suggesting a change that would benefit no class but your own? You said so yourself how lethality ADCs and crit ADCs do basically the same damage to squishies. The difference is in how effective they are against tanks.

What other 'good' would come from a change like this? Structure damage remains largely the same, objective damage largely the same, squishy damage largely the same (if not more with lethality). Not every champion can make use of lethality, so you would be essentially removing more than half of the class pool (unless implemented with other large scale changes that would have no guarantee of making things any better or worse).

Proving my bias is your burden, accuser.

Ignoring that stupid claim, I already explained that I believe crit is too strong in general and blows every other single multiplicative scaling stat out of the water. It's simply too good and frankly, given its pseudo random nature, id argue it's least healthy as a result. Any change to lethality for ADCs would require a retuning of both ADCs and lethality but I figured that was understood without it not needing to be mentioned. That was my mistake.

skyskee0085 votes

Lol. Saying that you have no bias is stupid and shows that don't know shit.

Anyone's that's taken even basic psychology knows that EVERYONE has bias - significant amounts of it. It's important to understand your biases and account for them - not just say "I'm not biased/have little bias" because that makes you seem ignorant as shit.

HateDaddy8 votes

{quoted}

Lol. Saying that you have no bias is stupid and shows that don't know shit.

Anyone's that's taken even basic psychology knows that EVERYONE has bias - significant amounts of it. It's important to understand your biases and account for them - not just say "I'm not biased/have little bias" because that makes you seem ignorant as shit.

Apparently you can't read, said I had little bias. Not no bias. Little bias doesn't mean insignificant bias, it simply means I am aware of my biases and adjust my opinion accordingly. You need not look hard, you can see from my post history.

Shad0wJeT6 votes

well if youre going to say his opinion is flawed for him wanting his class to actually be viable then how bout this. Youre opinion seems flawed because you dont go through the suffering that is ranked right now. You play normals and the rotating game modes. Its much harder to actually carry a game as a bruiser top or mage mid or even damage jungler. Its just not a fun or exciting meta is what hes trying to say. You winning that sweet 17-20LP literally decides on whose adc is better and its just not fun. So go ahead and say i have a flawed opinion because im a top lane main who plays tanks and bruisers but in my opinion this game isnt fun right now for anyone but adcs. And when its not fun in ranked theres no point. Its useless suffering that you go through. In normals you dont care if you get shit on but in ranked its different. You care much more about ranked games, that much is fact. But why care when youre class is suseless to the adc who wont die due to support itemization and them having so much lifesteal that stacks with crit. It just doesnt seem fair to any top lane bruiser or tank right now.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

His class is viable. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be seeing play, particularly in the pro scene (where the game is based on how well your tank line plays)

And he is specifically asking for crit to be removed, a change that only benefits his class, which is hardly struggling right now.

Are there some ADCs that are out of line right now? Sure. Is the whole class broken? No.

And since when does ranked mean the be all-end all of understanding how the game works? In case you never noticed, normal games and ranked games play exactly the same way.

Shad0wJeT4 votes

First of all the pro scene and soloQ are completely different. Always have been. Thats where most balancing issues come from. Things like azir are gutted because he was average in normal soloq but in the pro scene he was broken. So comparing the pro scene to the average player is a stupid thing to do in the first place.

Second crit being removed wouldnt only help tanks. I dont know if youve noticed but assassins and mages are ass right now and can be 1v1'd by a crit adc. So assassins and mages could benefit from it as well. As far as i can see the only class that would suffer significant loss from this is the adc class.

Third of all its very apparent that ranked is very different from normal play. In ranked people care much more about the state of the game and hate even more when stuff is just not fair. People who play ranked tend to have more game knowledge and tend to pay more attention to how the game works all because they care more. Its this level of caring that Im talking about how youre argument can be seen as flawed. Most people who dont play ranked typically dont care about the game as much.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Go ahead and look at my post history, or even at the other comments in this thread, and tell me I don't care about the game.

Removing crit only benefits tanks because the only other option is lethality, a stat that does the same or better against squishies, but worse against tanks.

Assassins maybe, due to how many tanks are running around right now, but mages are still a staple, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Having a strong AP damage source is just as important as having an ADC.

Shad0wJeT4 votes

It looks as though you love to tell others what are wrong with there opinions about this game. But just my opinion, youll probably dislike it anyways as that seems to be a running thing.

But anyways, you obviously dont pay as much attention to the pro scene as your last reply would make me think as mages arent even the most viable pick mid anymore. They get outclassed by adcs like corki and lucian or tanks like galio. And while i did say the average player is different from the pros, the pros set the metas with their picks. ADCs are overloaded with how much crit chance they get right now along with 2/3 thirds of the crit items they build give them their attack speed as well.

Plus it would not just shift it to a lethality meta. And when they rechanged lethality to scale with your level its going to do just fine against tanks.

But when tanks are still being deleted by crits thats just not right. Its in the name, TANK. They should be hard to take down but seeing a tristana crit you 6 times in a row for your 4k healthbar while you have 300 armor and you just die from it just doesnt seem right to me.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Nope. Bruisers as a class are not viable. You don't see anyone in the pro scene except jarvan and he is getting nerfed next patch for doing what he is supposed to do :^) Tanks in general? Not really viable. Broken as shit tanks who are more juggernauts than actual tanks like maokai and cho? Yes. Do they play like tanks or bruisers in pro play? Nope, they go locket, knights vow. Support items. Tanks and especially bruisers are NOT viable and it is INCREDIBLY hard to have an impact at all. Especially in soloQ.

How long do you play lol? Marksmen are broken since ever. First overhaul in s4 was basically freelo to challenger for everyone who could abuse vayne or tristana. Since then they have always been a problem child. Second overhaul in s6. Oh yeah. We have problems with them since 2 seasons where they are either pretty useless or overbearingly OP. But is sure is not the class who is the problem.

Normal games have nothing in common with ranked games. Nothing more to say about it and while a lot of people exist who understand the game even when not playing much my observation pretty much shows the higher the rank the more understanding of the game.

Take rubick. I don't share a lot of his opinions but i can see where he comes from and that what he believes is logical and indeed makes sense from how the game is played. You on the other hand say "his class is hardly struggling right now". No sane man who plays bruisers/juggernauts at a higher level would dare to say they don't struggle.

Mizaya5 votes

Let's recall a few of the issues of the lethality meta:

  • I know the ADC meta isn't exactly diverse right now, and frankly it is quite boring, but it's still better than Jhin and Varus dominating and being far and above any other pick.
  • Junglers were controlling the game for the duration of most games. It needed to be toned down, but not to the point where they are often barely earning more gold than the support, which is what we have now...
  • Support meta at the time was far from optimal. Brand, Zyra, Malzahar? MF??? The damage/gold share numbers for some of those supports must have been insane at the time. Can't tell you how many times I saw a Brand outdamaging his whole team, or a Zyra even, with literally a Liandry's and Sorc Shoes.
  • Redemption was way too powerful as an item. Once it got nerfed, along with locket (On supports. It's super strong on tanks now), and Censer got buffed, the meta was already on its way to shifting.

That aside, I think these items are the main issues in the meta as far as ADCs go. item 3504 item 3109 item 3087 Knight's Vow is basically a core item on meta junglers now, which really just makes no sense and needs to be addressed. Censer is a meta defining item for supports, and will still continue to probably be very strong after the nerfs. Shiv is just too strong as a 2nd item powerspike combined with IE. It's just a good buy on so many ADCs right now and just out-performs all other Zeal items.

As far as removing crit, I don't think it'll happen, and even in the slight chance that it does it will have to come with gigantic changes across the board because of how deeply rooted within the game it is as a stat. I do think it would make ADC more fun and interesting to play, seeing as I have always enjoyed champions like Ez, and Lucian back in his item 3072 item 3078 days. BUT, apparently Riot is hinting at possibly incentivizing crit as a stat for Ez in the future, so I wouldn't count on anything like this happening.

Firethorn1 votes

I think their lowering knights vows health in the PBE to 250 instead of 350 so that might fix some problems

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

And what exactly is the problem with brand outdamaging the rest of his team? He is played as SUPPORT. He can support his team with CC, dmg, shields, heals there are dozens of variables. A lot of dota supports deal crazy amounts of damage others do not. Finally i can play a galio mid instead of the same 4 mages every game because i know we have a brand or zyra supp. Doesn't mean they should crowd out other picks but that is happening right now with these braindead soraka, lulu, janna picks as well and i rarely see any complaints from adc/supp mains about THEM. I believe it's just that brand and zyra aren't that idiotic to play and that's where the hate come from. Why having to hit skillshots or manage mana when you can just spam your shields off CD and the adc does the rest.

Mizaya1 votes

His damage should be consistent with his gold income. Base damage on a mage w/o much gold shouldn't be so high, that's the only reason he was played as a support. He could just stack pen.

Now, the thing with enchanters is that they are low risk high reward. A well-played Janna doesn't necessarily outperform a well-played Thresh, the rank 2 NA player is a perfect example of that. But with all the autofilled supports and less skilled support players, Janna ends up outperforming among the general population of players. I am an ADC player, I think the meta bot lane is very stale and boring outside of very high elo, because it's a lot easier to play a safe bot lane than to punish one.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

I feel like we're looking through some heavily rose tinted glasses here. As much as ya hate Crit, it at least takes more items to get it rolling than "I got Ghostblade" for a good majority of the Lethality ADCs. Then, not to mention, those Lethality ADCs shoved out all the other competition by bringing early burst, which most couldn't compete with. Lucian, Jhin, Mf and Varus, and maybe Draven were the only viable few during then.

Crit may need to come online a bit later in the game, and I mean this as of right now it should come online later, but saying lethality meta was healthier is just plain dumb.

Spank the Fox3 votes

Yeah remove crit and make on-hit king!

That's totally not oppressive at all! Just ignore that one Kennen build, it doesn't count.

YumaS2Astral5 votes

On hit itemization is pretty shitty at the moment to be honest

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

On hit builds would be atleast tuneable and are actually DPS and not burst per second.

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