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@Riot, make Veigar's Q point and click

SwapShadows··3 votes·1,757 views

PLEASE READ TEXT BEFORE POSTING, THANKS; TOO MANY PEOPLE READING 1 SENTENCE THEN POSTING

I feel like after the recent buffs his kit is finally decent and can actually be used similarly to how it was used before but something that really annoys me is how his Q was changed to make him focus more on farming rather than lane bullying, this also affects his team fighting and poke.

His new Q pretty much lacks the old poke his other Q had, most veigar mains would pretty much use the old Q to get poke off which worked far better than spending 20+ minutes farming with it. The new Q doesn't allow you to get the best poke, it's decent but the minion blockage pretty much stops you from trading and in teamfights it can stop you from bursting someone down if people are infront of that champion.

DON'T GET ME WRONG, the new Q is definitely better in some situations but the lack of poking and reliability in teamfights has left veigar with some problems.

If I stun someone at 50%, I shouldn't be worrying about random creeps or champions moving and completely blocking my Q because his new kit revolves around landing that very important stun and deleting the champ you caught. As of now, veigars laning phase isn't the greatest; the fact that his stun has been changed made him lose a lot of lane pressure and the fact that his Q can now be blocked by proper positioning behind minions makes him very vulnerable to losing most trades and possibly dying a lot in the early phases of the game. Proper positioning isn't a bad thing but it is if veigar has no other source of poke/damage to hit them back with then it's a problem.

Pros of making his Q point and click:

  1. poke reliability, his stun lasts too little at early levels to let his W do damage
  2. Lane pressure
  3. Team fight reliability
  4. kill secure reliability
  5. More? probably forgot some

Cons of making his Q point and click

  1. Range has to be reduced
  2. might have to remove the double farming
  3. less potential AOE damage
  4. Less AP stacking
  5. More? probably forgot some

tl;dr veigar pretty much lacks reliability that he desperately needs in the laning phase and teamfights because of his Q, his stun after the recent buffs has been left in a good spot and it's much easier to land.

44 Comments

JustMyBassCannon4 votes

I kinda prefer having his Q as a skill shot. I'm not a Veigar main, but I do like mages, and having his Q as a skill shot feels better than it did as a targeted spell. Also, the fact that it can harass behind a minion leaves room for some fun plays.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

I kinda prefer having his Q as a skill shot. I'm not a Veigar main, but I do like mages, and having his Q as a skill shot feels better than it did as a targeted spell. Also, the fact that it can harass behind a minion leaves room for some fun plays.

Well to be fair you have to read the thread so you can see why this is a bad thing and how it hurts veigars kit/reliability.

Trídent4 votes

Skillshot Q is fine imo, doesn't lower Veigar's reliability

His (EDIT:W, harder to hit with new E) does, however

SwapShadows3 votes

{quoted}

Skillshot Q is fine imo, doesn't lower Veigar's reliability

His E does, however

Not really, if you read the text it shows exactly why his Q is unreliable.

His stun is fine atm, now that it stops dashes its reliable.

Trídent3 votes

Sorry, meant W, my bad

I've read your text, and I don't agree. His Q is reliable, just not as reliable as the point and click. The projectile speed is very fast, so it's extremely easy to hit.

Personally, I prefer the skillshot Q, because it feels a lot more fun than the old Q. With the Old Q, you couldn't set up minions to double stack, you couldn't set up scenarios where you could stack and poke simultaneously. You also couldn't WQ two squishies out of the teamfight

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

Sorry, meant W, my bad

I've read your text, and I don't agree. His Q is reliable, just not as reliable as the point and click. The projectile speed is very fast, so it's extremely easy to hit.

Personally, I prefer the skillshot Q, because it feels a lot more fun than the old Q. With the Old Q, you couldn't set up minions to double stack, you couldn't set up scenarios where you could stack and poke simultaneously. You also couldn't WQ two squishies out of the teamfight

Yes those are very good situations but that's not the point i'm trying to make. His kit is unreliable because of his Q being feast or famine, he can either get a good situation like you just said or he can get completely blocked by minions and literally miss his chance on a kill or a good trade.

Trídent3 votes

You set up the situation.

If there is a friendly minion nearby getting low, lower the hp of a nearby enemy minion to stack and poke. This works best if they are a melee mid. Still works splendidly with ranged mids usually.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

You set up the situation.

If there is a friendly minion nearby getting low, lower the hp of a nearby enemy minion to stack and poke. This works best if they are a melee mid. Still works splendidly with ranged mids usually.

Well you lowered a 50% minion to 30%, you now Q'd it and another enemy minion randomly moved right behind that minion and your Q is now on CD and gives the enemy free time to poke you.

See where the problem with the Q's reliability comes in?

Trídent3 votes

As a player who mained Veigar pre and post nerfs, I agree ^-^

Trídent3 votes

His new Q pretty much lacks the old poke his other Q had, most veigar mains would pretty much use the old Q to get poke off which worked far better than spending 20+ minutes farming with it. The new Q doesn't allow you to get the best poke, it's decent but the minion blockage pretty much stops you from trading and in teamfights it can stop you from bursting someone down if people are infront of that champion.

No, you had to choose whether to farm or poke before. Now you can do both.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

No, you had to choose whether to farm or poke before. Now you can do both.

This is why I like the skillshot Q. I used Veigar a little while back against a Katarina, and actually bullied her in lane by poking her through minions. I could get stacks for my Q while also poking her down, and eventually flash ulted her for an easy kill (I don't think the Kat was all that good). Veigar is perfectly able to trade with his new Q.

Now, some will say that there are still many champions that bully Veigar in lane. Well, good? One of the hardest scaling AP mids doesn't need a really strong laning phase.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

This is why I like the skillshot Q. I used Veigar a little while back against a Katarina, and actually bullied her in lane by poking her through minions. I could get stacks for my Q while also poking her down, and eventually flash ulted her for an easy kill (I don't think the Kat was all that good). Veigar is perfectly able to trade with his new Q.

Now, some will say that there are still many champions that bully Veigar in lane. Well, good? One of the hardest scaling AP mids doesn't need a really strong laning phase.

Honestly, she wasn't good if she continually got poked by veigars Q. It costs a lot of mana and most veigars will use that Q for stacks instead of poking so you can easily stop this by not being behind a minion with little hp or being behind 2 minions while his Q is off CD.

NemeBro1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, she wasn't good if she continually got poked by veigars Q. It costs a lot of mana and most veigars will use that Q for stacks instead of poking so you can easily stop this by not being behind a minion with little hp or being behind 2 minions while his Q is off CD.

Do you want to know what the enemy laner is doing if they are focused on avoiding being poked by my Q? Denying me farm and killing me.

Even if I don't hit them with the Q, so what? I still stack my Q, which means I'm on my way toward outscaling my laning opponent (especially if they are AP).

Veigar is hardly the strongest champion in the game, but if he has problems, his new Q is not one of them IMO.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

Do you want to know what the enemy laner is doing if they are focused on avoiding being poked by my Q? Denying me farm and killing me.

Even if I don't hit them with the Q, so what? I still stack my Q, which means I'm on my way toward outscaling my laning opponent (especially if they are AP).

Veigar is hardly the strongest champion in the game, but if he has problems, his new Q is not one of them IMO. Even so it still has to do with his Q being a problem, you farm and get around 200 extra ap but in a teamfight where your Q can get blocked; you will probably not kill that person.

Trídent3 votes

Veigar's meant to be bullied in lane xD

That kat must've just been playing her for freelo xD

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

Veigar's meant to be bullied in lane xD

That kat must've just been playing her for freelo xD

Yes he is but he should have a reliable way to fight back, his only source of early poke gets heavily countered by minion blockage.

Most mages have ways of poking beyond a minion wave while veigar does not.

Trídent3 votes

That's not his identity. I've played 100+ games with Veigar, and it is quite easy to poke past minions. Veigar is very, very weak early game. His goal is to survive or snowball (with the jungler's help) the early game to become an absolute monster mid game.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

That's not his identity. I've played 100+ games with Veigar, and it is quite easy to poke past minions. Veigar is very, very weak early game. His goal is to survive or snowball (with the jungler's help) the early game to become an absolute monster mid game.

I'm sorry but we play at different elo's. People do not willingy get hit by a veigar Q because they know what effects poking has.

Trídent3 votes

It's the same thing with Ezreal's Q, it's very hard to dodge. The projectile speed of Veigar's Q is faster than Ezreal's.

Also, I don't play ranked. They don't willingly get hit, they can't avoid it usually.

NemeBro2 votes

{quoted}

Veigar's meant to be bullied in lane xD

That kat must've just been playing her for freelo xD

Perhaps, but the same can be said of Katarina IMHO. Though yeah, as I said I don't think she was very good.

Trídent3 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WFPkwU6Y-there-is-a-huge-problem-with-veigar duplicate much?

SwapShadows2 votes

All veigar players, I am hoping you all feel the same way and bring light to this discussion <3

much thx

Trídent2 votes

I dont :P <3

Dark Nephthys2 votes

The reason why point and click skills are slowly turning into skill shots is to add counter play for the enemy. Like for his stun, it has a delay because of just how strong that stun really is in a team fight. I know that they'res a lot of other point and click skills that some people might argue to be needing changed before Veigar's Q but at the same time...his Q was pretty strong since he can stack his AP up and it's not entirely hard for him to reach 1k AP. So his 260 base + 60% AP point and click (almost no counter play besides for Zhonyas or un-targetable skills) skill would do 860 magic damage (at 1k AP) with a low cool down, which I won't even get into his ultimate lol.

I do understand the annoying change for people who main Veigar though, and can see that being a lot harder to trade with. At least his Q got a compensation buff for it and was made into some thing "almost" as good that just works differently then his old Q. It's not like his Q was just turned into a skill shot without getting anything for it.

SwapShadows2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hHxUX01,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-06-29T03:31:56.440+0000)

The reason why point and click skills are slowly turning into skill shots is to add counter play for the enemy. Like for his stun, it has a delay because of just how strong that stun really is in a team fight. I know that they'res a lot of other point and click skills that some people might argue to be needing changed before Veigar's Q but at the same time...his Q was pretty strong since he can stack his AP up and it's not entirely hard for him to reach 1k AP. So his 260 base + 60% AP point and click (almost no counter play besides for Zhonyas or un-targetable skills) skill would do 860 magic damage (at 1k AP) with a low cool down, which I won't even get into his ultimate lol.

I do understand the annoying change for people who main Veigar though, and can see that being a lot harder to trade with. At least his Q got a compensation buff for it and was made into some thing "almost" as good that just works differently then his old Q. It's not like his Q was just turned into a skill shot without getting anything for it.

The reason why it needs to be point and click is to remove his problems due to his lack of reliability. His laning phase pressure has drastically dropped due to his delayed stun and his lack of poking/trading. His teamfighting is also lacking in kill securing because of champion blockage.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

While that could be true, but his new Q is actually very good for chasing targets in fog of war. Think about it this way, if you were in a major team fight and used all of your kit to help your team etc. Let's say one of their carries survived and started running away and you are kind of close to them and see them so you chase them. If his Q was back to a point and click, then his range wouldn't be so high (Rem his Q got a huge range buff from 650 to 950), and if he was running in un-warded areas then you would have to chase him through bushes and get very close to secure the kill, which they'll probably just run away. Now if this same situation happened and his Q was what it is now, you could just chase him for a second or 2 until you see where he's going and throw your Q out at them and kill him (Maybe your lucky and another low target was there and you get a double).

Also the fact that his Q's range did increase that much gives you a lot more farming potential for Veigar. I know that you don't want to just farm for X amount of time, but he is a stacking champion which should be what you mostly want to do (Like Nasus and his Q stacks).

Plus the amount of damage you can deal to the enemy team with your Q since it can hit multiple people is insane. And yes the tanks blocking your Q from their carries will be annoying and could suck but at the same time...you are a carry yourself, you shouldn't be planing on walking up to the enemy carry at 650 range to even try to Q them anyways, unless they're tanks are dead or you get a flank etc. With the new Q, you can actually play safe and poke in both the laning phase and team fights from a much larger range then you could with the old Q.

The way Veigar played before was to forced...Basically either farm your Q on minions or casually farm your Q while throwing out a few Q's on the enemy until you get them low enough to instant burst them down. Now with good positioning you could farm your Q and poke the enemy at the same time (or just try to farm your Q on 2 minions).

Also I feel his stun came out decent since it now stops anyone who tries to dash in it when it comes up. While it's technically harder then old stun when you use it against champions with no mobility, it does help a lot with the mobile champions.

SwapShadows1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hHxUX01,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-06-29T03:53:26.705+0000)

While that could be true, but his new Q is actually very good for chasing targets in fog of war. Think about it this way, if you were in a major team fight and used all of your kit to help your team etc. Let's say one of their carries survived and started running away and you are kind of close to them and see them so you chase them. If his Q was back to a point and click, then his range wouldn't be so high (Rem his Q got a huge range buff from 650 to 950), and if he was running in un-warded areas then you would have to chase him through bushes and get very close to secure the kill, which they'll probably just run away. Now if this same situation happened and his Q was what it is now, you could just chase him for a second or 2 until you see where he's going and throw your Q out at them and kill him (Maybe your lucky and another low target was there and you get a double).

Also the fact that his Q's range did increase that much gives you a lot more farming potential for Veigar. I know that you don't want to just farm for X amount of time, but he is a stacking champion which should be what you mostly want to do (Like Nasus and his Q stacks).

Plus the amount of damage you can deal to the enemy team with your Q since it can hit multiple people is insane. And yes the tanks blocking your Q from their carries will be annoying and could suck but at the same time...you are a carry yourself, you shouldn't be planing on walking up to the enemy carry at 650 range to even try to Q them anyways, unless they're tanks are dead or you get a flank etc. With the new Q, you can actually play safe and poke in both the laning phase and team fights from a much larger range then you could with the old Q.

The way Veigar played before was to forced...Basically either farm your Q on minions or casually farm your Q while throwing out a few Q's on the enemy until you get them low enough to instant burst them down. Now with good positioning you could farm your Q and poke the enemy at the same time (or just try to farm your Q on 2 minions).

Also I feel his stun came out decent since it now stops anyone who tries to dash in it when it comes up. While it's technically harder then old stun when you use it against champions with no mobility, it does help a lot with the mobile champions.

You're job is to kill a carry, not to find running champions and try to kill them; his current Q stops his main goal.

He was forced before? his only goal atm is farming which limits him more than it used to before, also its hard to poke someone while farming if they position properly

Yes it can deal a lot of damage but damage isn't the issue; it's the reliability....... I don't want to hit 2 random champs and do a lot of damage, I want to hit the champ I caught in my stun and do damage to them; not a minion or champion that happened to get in the way.

I agree, his stun is now pretty good.

Yordle Xayah2 votes

{quoted}

tl;dr veigar pretty much lacks reliability that he desperately needs in the laning phase and teamfights because of his Q, his stun after the recent buffs has been left in a good spot and it's much easier to land.

Or you can improve your use of skill shots...

Also, and very related to this... Annie needs to be Veigar'd

SwapShadows2 votes

[{quoted}](name=FNC Saki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hHxUX01,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-06-29T03:34:34.523+0000)

Or you can improve your use of skill shots...

Also, and very related to this... Annie needs to be Veigar'd

Annie can already trade and poke in laning phase, veigar practically has 0 poke and trading/pressure due to minion blockage and his delayed stun.

Yordle Xayah1 votes

And that's why you play him like Ziggs Farm up for 20 - 25 mins, grab 3 items and then become a monster Team Fight Control Mage... not an assassin. Know the role of the champion well, and then take advantage of it.

SwapShadows1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FNC Saki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hHxUX01,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-06-29T04:38:42.220+0000)

And that's why you play him like Ziggs Farm up for 20 - 25 mins, grab 3 items and then become a monster Team Fight Control Mage... not an assassin. Know the role of the champion well, and then take advantage of it.

Ziggs can land his skills far more easier than veigar can while being AOE, know champion differences then compare.

Yordle Xayah1 votes

No no, you just said it yourself. Ziggs can land his skills easier. Thus... Veigar takes skill. Either learn him well, or play something else.

SwapShadows1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FNC Saki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hHxUX01,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-29T05:22:27.359+0000)

No no, you just said it yourself. Ziggs can land his skills easier. Thus... Veigar takes skill. Either learn him well, or play something else.

That has nothing to do with the point that's in this thread, please read before making any posts.

Im saying that ziggs has a easier time reliably landing his skills while veigar does not which in terms of balance is not good.

Veigar shouldn't have to worry about being blocked by minions and champions while ziggs doesn't have to care because he can easily bypass minions/champs that are in the way.

Trídent3 votes

They are completely different champions Swap. Ziggs is a poke mage, while Veigar is the bursty short guy. Ziggs is designed to harass enemies and bully them. Veigar isn't.

Zigg bombs are also very easy to dodge, unlike Veigar's, who's lightning projectile speed make it near undodgeable.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

They are completely different champions Swap. Ziggs is a poke mage, while Veigar is the bursty short guy. Ziggs is designed to harass enemies and bully them. Veigar isn't.

Zigg bombs are also very easy to dodge, unlike Veigar's, who's lightning projectile speed make it near undodgeable.

Dude you have to read, someone just said "that's why you have to play him like ziggs" and I was counter arguing their statement.

Trídent3 votes

That has nothing to do with the point that's in this thread, please read before making any posts.

Im saying that ziggs has a easier time reliably landing his skills while veigar does not which in terms of balance is not good.

Veigar shouldn't have to worry about being blocked by minions and champions while ziggs doesn't have to care because he can easily bypass minions/champs that are in the way.

Stop saying we have to read. We are reading. I was responding to your counterargument ^

Yordle Xayah1 votes

Yes he should have to worry about being blocked by minions.

Point+click abilities offer very little counter play. If you can't understand this, then you shouldn't be playing Veigar. Many champions have been nerfed in the past, and those who really like the champion have re-learned and mastered the new mechanics.

But if you can't even understand why Veigar's old Q was toxic, then this is where I draw the line.

SwapShadows1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FNC Saki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hHxUX01,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-06-29T10:37:11.060+0000)

Yes he should have to worry about being blocked by minions.

Point+click abilities offer very little counter play. If you can't understand this, then you shouldn't be playing Veigar. Many champions have been nerfed in the past, and those who really like the champion have re-learned and mastered the new mechanics.

But if you can't even understand why Veigar's old Q was toxic, then this is where I draw the line.

His old Q wasn't toxic, he got changed because his instant aoe stun was the problem.

This was adressed by riot, your game knowledge and reading abilities are low it seems.

Also you can't fully master RNG btw.

SwapShadows2 votes

bump

Chroyo2 votes

What separates a good veigar from the great veigar is the amount of AP they can farm in the laning phase making him a threat during mid-late game because he uses that AP to blow someone up.

Cons of making his Q point and click

  1. Range has to be reduced

{quoted}

well if you look when they made his Q a skillshot, the range on it was massively reduced already. Reducing it even further will just make him unable to farm or kill off some harass/kill potential.

He also already has to play safe early in the game because lets be honest he runs oom so fast. Mages with longer rage will just be able to harass him for free. Edit: Okay I stand corrected. His range was increased from 650 to 850 with his rework.

SwapShadows1 votes

{quoted}

What separates a good veigar from the great veigar is the amount of AP they can farm in the laning phase making him a threat during mid-late game because he uses that AP to blow someone up.

  1. Range has to be reduced

well if you look when they made his Q a skillshot, the range on it was massively reduced already. Reducing it even further will just make him unable to farm or kill off some harass/kill potential.

He also already has to play safe early in the game because lets be honest he runs oom so fast. Mages with longer rage will just be able to harass him for free.

When they changed his q into a skillshot, his range was increased.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

Counterparts means more than dodge the skillshot.people have this belief that point and click is innately harmful when this is hardly true

SwapShadows1 votes

bump

Icestar11861 votes

Um... If you weren't farming with Q before, you were doing it wrong. Without the double hit, it is extremely important to get every Q cs you possibly can. Even now, it's more important to farm than poke. It's kind of like Nasus.

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