Why Kog'Maw isn't Picked.

Boomerangbro·Nov 13, 2015·111 votes·5,098 views

Well, let's see. He's meant to be a late game scaling hypercarry. His nerfed numbers reflect that he should scale relatively well around the 25-30 minute mark.

Games now end in 15-20 minutes. Boom! Theres your problem.

92 Comments

BonipherusNov 13, 201531 votes

Also people are building him very, very wrong. If you get infinity edge on him and get straight ad and crit you deserve to lose

RukhalNov 14, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Also people are building him very, very wrong. If you get infinity edge on him and get straight ad and crit you deserve to lose

Maybe if riot hadn't gone and just fucked every item in the game and made everything so fucking confusing, they might aswell have reset everyones level cause it's like learning the game all over again.

Axis the DragonNov 14, 20154 votes

Kog has never gone AD + Crit (bar Trinity Force) so that's largely irrelevant

Zair UmbrasNov 14, 20153 votes

Yeah, but Trinity was heavily nerfed for Kog with the loss of the AP and half the AS being removed.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 14, 20151 votes

He still benefits from more crit and cdr though. Needs to be tested.

Zair UmbrasNov 15, 20151 votes

Eeeehhhhhhh. I dunno about the crit part. The entire part of his kit is to turn into a DPS machine, though with his W only giving 5% boost in actual DPS and given the fact BotRK+AS/Crit+IE+ArP item are going to be standard... You have room for either Trinity or Essence Reaver or another AS item. Trinity pales in comparison to Essence and since it only gives 15% AS with the proc not being nearly as good since you do NOT want to spam his R anymore because it only does damage to low health targets... eeehhhh... Trinity has lot of its lust. No AP, less AS, less AD, and his R isn't that ability you press for more damage early into a fight, it's a finisher.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 15, 20152 votes

I don't see those items becoming standard, especially not on Kog. Koggie has so many options that need to be explored.

Also it's 10% actually, since it's hitting twice as fast at 55% damage. I honestly see "standard" being item 3124 .

Zair UmbrasNov 15, 20151 votes

Rageblade falls too quickly and doesn't proc stacks off spells anymore. While you can get the stacks quick when pushing a wave or tower down or during Baron/Drag/Herald, when you're at mid waiting for a fight to start, you have to ramp it up. Ramp ups always have issues with reliability, especially when they're on champions that have issues staying out of danger or sticking to their target.

Kog would need to shoot off 8 attacks before he'd be able to put a Rageblade to proper use and since you won't have the 5 attacks per sec prior to a few stacks, you'll likely be around 3.5-4 per sec, so it'll take 2 whole seconds of standing still and letting loose a barrage of AA's on one target just to get to your maximum potential. 2s long ramp ups aren't exactly awesome, especially when you have to be standing completely still because stutter stepping anything more than 1.5 attacks per sec is really, really hard and complicated. He'd require his teammates to keep him completely safe while he ramps up. For that, you could just use some one like Jax or Kayle who can stay alive and do the same level of power earlier.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 15, 20151 votes

It's the same reason Kog's use Fervor. The ramp up is instant with item 3085 . Takes a whole whopping 0.6 seconds to hit max stacks on both Fervor and item 3124 .

Zair UmbrasNov 15, 20151 votes

As mentioned in this exact post and in many, many posts everywhere... Rageblade is ON ATTACK, not ON HIT, so Runaan's does NOT give you stacks. Everyone has tried and it doesn't work.

DarkwindNov 14, 20154 votes

That's not really true.

You just have to go back far enough.

item 3046 item 3031 item 3006 item 3035 item 3026 item 3072

This was the standard by late season 2 for kog.

Evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJoD3zxZhcU

Axis the DragonNov 14, 20151 votes

I mean, if you go back far enough, one of Kog's core items was Madred's Bloodrazor =P it all comes full circle

But for the past 3 seasons, critkog hasn't really been a thing, so most people might not even think of building crit on Kog even with the item changes.

JuggaleNov 14, 20151 votes

I find Crit kog just to be the side effect of the way I was building, then I built to compensate it.

What I was building - item 3094 item 3087 and what i added to make it work: item 3508

With those 3 items (and yes the passives stack) his W just becomes stupid. Sure its not the BEST option, but it works and the damage is stupid on a single hit with the enhancers + Crit. I think Crit kog is viable in this meta with these items, just not the BEST option.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 14, 20151 votes

Yeah you definitely want attack speed and the ShivCannon combo is just great on its own but I don't think it's quite right for Kog. With Kog you want sustained shrekking. ShivCannon is moreso for adding a 1-hit burst to a target/seiging. Also the stack rate on basic attacking is rather low (like every 12th shot is energized or sumthin).

I'd say item 3142 first into item 3153 + item 3085 in no particular order. After that it's all preference and situational.

item 3142 's active synergizes amazingly well with his W. And ofcourse item 3153 item 3085 are musts on him.

Edit: Just realized Essence Reaver has amazing synergy with him. Kog loves CDR and Mana. item 3142 item 3085 item 3508 recommended. Then probably item 3153 item 3031 or item 3102 item 3022

...and now realizing item 3124 synergizes amazingly with him too. Gah idk. But Guinsoo definitely seems the one to rush given the flat damage on the proc is pretty nice for earlier on.

item 3124 item 3085 item 3142 item 3153

VerxintNov 14, 20151 votes

My friend has been rushing item 3087 item 3085 . Because of the 15 damage on hit proc from Runanns, as well as Fervor in battle, he has a lot of damage with just this as well as easy waveclear.

Later items are usually item 3124 item 3153 and item 3031 last because he does have 2 crit items.

I'm willing to bet a lot of people are failing with him because they have warlords, which is objectively bad for Kog, instead of Fervor.

OyddAWqJ5rNov 15, 20151 votes

Hm, well I'm no Kog player or ADC player for that matter so I won't be testing it anytime soon. But have him try rushing item 3124 item 3085 . Those flat stats seem like they'd work far better being built earlier. Runaans will proc Guinsoo's 3 times as fast, granting 24% (48% W) attack speed and 9 AD per basic attack.

A 48% increase per basic attack sounds pretty insane. 128% at max--which then procs Guinsoo's Rage on every bolt. I'm not sure how much waveclear there is there though. Statikk is definitely THE go-to waveclear item.

Teemo or FeedmoNov 14, 20151 votes

so how the fuck do you build him then?

i'm not a kog maw main,just keep this in mind.

LittleBlastNov 14, 20154 votes

I build item 3153 item 3124 item 3085 item 3006 item 3091 and item 3115 . It just melts people like butter, and you get 5.0 as.

BonipherusNov 16, 20151 votes

I get Guinsoo's as my first completed item because it gives both ad and ap, the most attack speed of any single item, and applies both of your ratios as on hit damage- which is unmitigated by your new w (Also the on hit damage from the item actually scales with your ap as well as your ad and when you get max stacks you deal that damage in an aoe). You can also get this item cheap and early for a really great power spike.

Leu07Nov 13, 201511 votes

The thing is, kog needs a good front line and peel, right now everyone is just testing adcs and AD in general, so noone is really interested in creating a teamcomp that will benefit a kog'maw. Not when you have 2 adc bots and 1 adc in top and there's a yi that will just explode the kog in 2 sec.

LegalisskullNov 14, 20158 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, kog needs a good front line and peel, right now everyone is just testing adcs and AD in general, so noone is really interesting in creating a teamcomp that will benefit a kog'maw. Not when you have 2 adc bots and 1 adc in top and there's a yi that will just explode the kog in 2 sec.

You nailed it. Scaling time and average game time definitely come into play, but Kog has always been an ADC that relies on teamwork (peel, comps built around him) more so than his counterparts.

DazedOnlookerNov 13, 20159 votes

In my recent game with a KogMaw i was supporting him with Janna , we were doing fine..untill the enemy lee came out of the depths of narnia and killed both of us via tower diving, and giving the enemy graves 2 assists. we all come back into lane and all of a sudden graves and his support Karma 3 shooting us with his Q, thus ending with us surrendering by 20mins..our kog maw(and me tbh not even my max lvl shield could protect us from that insane damage) were completely useless as any attempts to trade, good or bad would end with us taking tons more damage...we were honestly at a loss for how we could ever turn the situation around, there was just no coming back from it either since the rest of our lanes fed 2 or 3 kills as well. There was no way that i could blame my adc though..we did our best..but to add insult to injury our jungler Udyr decided to call us all retarded, and idiots for giving 2 assists to graves and karma.and said "I'm not ganking any lanes for the next week until you people get your head out of your asses" then muted everyone for trying to defend themselves. and proceeded to afk farm in the jungle get executed a couple times, then ran all the way to the enemy base a few times..stood under their tower taking damage so the enemy team could kill him faster (feeding), while our base was burning to the ground....

Teemo or FeedmoNov 14, 20152 votes

i feel bad for you

kaltenashesNov 14, 20154 votes

graves new q (at least the returning bullet) have to be DODGED just like you shouldnt chase singed

AnidanNov 14, 20156 votes

Sometimes you're not in a position where you really can. Especially with that Karma. If she roots you (which Janna can only do so much to stop sometimes), then graves just got a ton of free damage on either Janna or the little void puppy. Then there's also the instant return if it hits terrain.. that doesn't help much.

StrixterNov 14, 20157 votes

i remember people saying this about old nidalee

kaltenashesNov 14, 20154 votes

the spears got nerfed, they do hurt a lot but not THAT MUCH anymore

HawkefireNov 14, 20157 votes

Too be fair, unless you are next to terrain, it is extremely easy to avoid the secondary explosion from Graves Q. Honestly you shouldn't be getting hit by that unless you are either A) CCed B) Right next to terrrain

Otherwise it is really just your own fault

JuggaleNov 14, 20154 votes

While I agree with this, its also a new move on an old character. Things people don't expect (like me who can't break this game like I was able to a week ago because of this whole new meta) force them to remember and there gonna get hit for awhile until they get used to it.

HawkefireNov 15, 20151 votes

So what you are saying is....it is your own fault you got hit xD

MelledoneusNov 14, 20152 votes

Too bad there's walking terrain all around you while trying to farm.

ProvengreilNov 14, 20155 votes

Old nidalee's spears would hit you a teemo away from it's particle. With new graves it's like getting directly hit by a pantheon ult: you have to be forced into it somehow.

KaisadiIIaNov 14, 20152 votes

If it wasn't a tiny projectile that is also too similar to his W it'd be easier. I hope I get used to it with time, but right now it just confuses me every time.

kaltenashesNov 14, 20152 votes

well, we have to, its getting nerfed only 25 ad and the mana cost will increase

DazedOnlookerNov 14, 20152 votes

The return is easy to dodge once you remember that it exists via getting hit by it 10 times in a single game.

DazedOnlookerNov 14, 20153 votes

How did you know that there was a 24/7 proxy farming singed being chased by my fed top who has given up on life by this point butitsokaybecausehetriedtocarryomghewassuchapanda and salty jungler for most of the time in my game?.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t12/larixel/wat_zpsv0yv0c7a.jpg

OT: You can only dodge soo many skill shots before destiny decides that your game needs to end faster and force you to walk INTO the skill shots because of reasons.

kaltenashesNov 14, 20152 votes

LOL i didnt, its the law "dont chase singed", you look it up on the bible on the book of the apocalypse (which is now)

RalanrNov 14, 20154 votes

Out of Narnia? Covered in snow I take it?

chipndip1Nov 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

In my recent game with a i was supporting him with , we were doing fine..untill the enemy lee came out of the depths of narnia and killed both of us via tower diving, and giving the enemy graves 2 assists. we all come back into lane and all of a sudden graves and his support 3 shooting us with his Q, thus ending with us surrendering by 20mins..our kog maw(and me tbh not even my max lvl shield could protect us from that insane damage) were completely useless as any attempts to trade, good or bad would end with us taking tons more damage...we were honestly at a loss for how we could ever turn the situation around, there was just no coming back from it either since the rest of our lanes fed 2 or 3 kills as well. There was no way that i could blame my adc though..we did our best..but to add insult to injury our jungler decided to call us all retarded, and idiots for giving 2 assists to graves and karma.and said "I'm not ganking any lanes for the next week until you people get your head out of your asses" then muted everyone for trying to defend themselves. and proceeded to afk farm in the jungle get executed a couple times, then ran all the way to the enemy base a few times..stood under their tower taking damage so the enemy team could kill him faster (feeding), while our base was burning to the ground....

Real question: How is Graves landing his Q on a Janna? Is he good or are you bad? Unless it was Karma rooting you...then I can see Kog getting blasted, but not a Janna.

Hard PenetratorNov 14, 20156 votes

He can't poke (his main advantage), he can't deal massive amount of dmg while kiting back. If he is stationary it means he is pretty much dead. Dead champions are generally worse at dealing dmg.

summonermhrysosNov 14, 20157 votes

Karthus :YOU FOCKIN WOT M8

doombotMECHANov 14, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hard Penetrator,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1d15WhKf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-14T01:00:07.530+0000)

generally

Wind WhistlerNov 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hard Penetrator,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1d15WhKf,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-11-14T01:00:07.530+0000)

He can't poke (his main advantage), he can't deal massive amount of dmg while kiting back. If he is stationary it means he is pretty much dead. Dead champions are generally worse at dealing dmg.

Disagree. 500 true damage in a large AOE is pretty solid.

Hard PenetratorNov 15, 20151 votes

You are right, better nuke them from the start.

Sire HippingtonNov 14, 20155 votes

that, and assasins all over the place, which hurts the little guy that needs some protection