Thornmail should apply reduced healing from auto-attacks? (Not grevious wounds)

Hibeki·Jan 2, 2015·5 votes·1,527 views

Thoughts?

14 Comments

SKT T1 CasheJan 2, 20153 votes

it already damages the enemy on auto attack so I think it would be rather pointless.

I think I know where you're getting at but it wouldn't make sense if a ranged person auto-attacked you with said "thornmail" because they are not really hitting you up close and personal.

So in short, Thornmail is fine as is.

HibekiJan 2, 20154 votes

Ok lets say someone (With thornmail as their only armor) Is hit by a 1k damage crit (Before defences)

The enemy flat out takes 300 in magic damage, before their MR, assuming they have 70 Magic resist, They will take ~200 damage

But, damage taken doesn't take into account Blade of the Ruined king bonus damage, with is 8% of current health. So lets also say my health is 1000.

He deals, 4% of my current health (Halved from 100 armor) which is 40 in bonus physical damage.

Now I take 500 to the face in one hit, plus 40. He heals for 75 on hit, negating a third of the damage. This is assuming that that is his only lifesteal item and he doesn't have blood potion.

Lets say he DOES have blood potion. Well now he heals for a quarter, healing for 125.

He only takes 75 damage from thornmail from healing.

Tell me thornmail is fine please.

EDIT: Math, takes 75 damage not 25, which is STILL very low.

SKT T1 CasheJan 2, 20151 votes

to be fair, item 3153 is a anti-tank item so of course it's going to rip right on through your HP. And Life steal is a basic for a lot of people playing AD champions. And of course the enemy is going to build AD against you if you're going tank. (ADC's always build pure damage anyway) Now the potion, or rather, the elixers. item 2140 is made for AD characters that can make them quite scary for a few minutes. Like how the other elixers are made to fit the other roles.

Alright, you're losing lane against a person who got a item 3153 and you're a tanky top lane what could you do? The best choice of action would be to get your jungler to gank him as many times as needed as you and said jungler destroy the towers before the enemy team arrives. Of course, that's just me and my experiences on what I usually do.

HibekiJan 2, 20152 votes

I shouldn't have even said blade of the ruined king, because i didn't even factor in the % damage or the extra heal.

Blade wasn't the source of the damage, it's just that lifesteal nearly entirely negated all the damage. Taking 75 damage for dealing out 1k crits is literally nothing.

Kuroi86Jan 2, 20152 votes

I always thought the point of Thornmail was to negate lifesteal on the ADC, not to be a significant source of damage.

HibekiJan 2, 20152 votes

If that was the goal than the item is TERRIBLY inefficient because it doesn't grant health.

I need almost 1k health to have a healthy balance of health and armor JUST FROM BUYING THIS ITEM

Kuroi86Jan 2, 20152 votes

What does a tanks health have to do with the passive on the item? Simply put, when an ADC attacks an tank, Thornmail calculates how much damage that auto would do before calculating resistances, then returns a portion of that damage back to the ADC. Not counting bork or arpen, you'd typically need more than 300 armor to deal more damage with Thornmail than you take. Obviously, Thornmail then is not intended to make you a bad target for the ADC. However, with two ar items and boots, it's possible to have in the neighborhood of 200 or more armor.
Unless the enemy AD builds multiple forms of lifesteal or their damage is fully reliant on bork and no other AD damage, then the damage you deal from Thornmail should be about as much if not a bit more than what they would regain from their lifesteal.

FadedpfJan 2, 20151 votes

This would be nice I guess. but I dont know grevious wounds would be a problem either. Not only does thornmail get blocked by mr, it also gets comepletely useless if they have lifesteal and any sort of armor pen.

RebonackJan 2, 20151 votes

Maybe not OnHit, that would be really powerful.

Instead make it an active. Make it store some of the damage you take up to a cap that can then be used to blast the target with a Bleed that inflicts magic damage and grievous wounds for a few seconds.

HibekiJan 2, 20152 votes

I feel like that could be too strong.

I don't want to give tanks DAMAGE, no one in the game should be able to take insane damage while dishing out some as well. Then again, full tanks are dying in 4.14 seconds.

If the penetration items stayed the same, than yes, they REALLY need damage to combat it.

RebonackJan 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I feel like that could be too strong.

I don't want to give tanks DAMAGE, no one in the game should be able to take insane damage while dishing out some as well. Then again, full tanks are dying in 4.14 seconds.

If the penetration items stayed the same, than yes, they REALLY need damage to combat it.

Thornmail isn't a Tank item, it's a Soak item. If anything, Fighters should be picking this thing up and diving the enemy ADC. Tanks don't want an item that discourages the enemy team from attacking them. A Fighter, however, does.

And most Tanks deal quite a bit of damage, really. It's just damage spread out over a longer period of time for the most part. The suggested Thorn active would fit the bill since it would need to be charged up for a while before it can be launched.

Kuroi86Jan 2, 20151 votes

Doesn't it sort of already do that with it's magic damage?

AblogqwerJan 3, 20151 votes

Is a lack of armor really the problem, or is it more armor penetration? Looking at masteries/items (disregarding character abilities and runes) the simple item 3035 + item 3142 combo on an adc results in roughly 40% armor pen and 20 flat. Let's pretend for a moment we have a fast AOE attacker like MonkeyKing to apply a full item 3071 stacks. Keeping in mind the way armor pen works (flat reduc -> % reduc -> % armor pen -> flat pen). This turns a 300 armor champ (which means three armor items, at LEAST; probably more like four) into a 115 armor champion, no more durable then your casual squishy burst mage with an hourglass at late levels. Unfortunately, your TANK has decided to dedicate four item slots that only works well vs a particular type of damage while three items has made it nearly pointless over just picking a burst assassin at the beginning of the game.

I distinctly recall for awhile tanks were completely invulnerable against adcs, but I suspect the pendulum has swung too far.

Again, and I repeat, this isn't including champion abilities or runes. You can make it even worse. This is coupled with the fact that all the item sources of grevious wounds have been stripped out (for better or worse) except for morello's.

I distinctly agree that a grevious wounds thornmail would help with this factor, and that randuin's and frozen heart are consider kings of armor tank due to their ability to debuff attack speed.

Still, you have to consider one last detail: Late-Game ADCs are exactly that. Carries. They are explicitly meant to burn through tanks or frontliners. Let's not forget the lesson that TankBorkVisageFeral League showed us.