Just wondering why this biotch can crit for 1700 at 650+ range while also having a mobility spell and 50% armor pen from her passive on that 1700 dmg crit..not saying shes overpowered, but why
yukumari6 votesThey got rid of the Armor pen on Caitlyns Headshot ages ago. Draven also has a movement speed buff ability that can be refreshed by catching his axes, and it's on a much lower cooldown than caitlyns Net until it hits max rank. Draven has higher base movement speed than caitlyn, Draven has noticably higher base HP than caitlyn, more mana than caitlyn significantly higher base attack speed at lower levels, significantly higher AD than caitlyn at all levels, and can potentially snowball into infinity by killing someone while having many adoration stacks.
You chose to only look at what caitlyn has over draven, without realizing what draven has over caitlyn. Do some research and don't be so bias towards your champion next time.
Woook3r1 votesDravens base move speed is 325 which is the lowest in the game. Do some research yourself. I know exactly what dravens stats are.
yukumari1 voteshttps://gyazo.com/10ade16ffadcefe0c9633d7f5892084d
Notice how it says 330. Plus even if i was wrong about his movement speed stats, that doesn't invalidate the rest of what I said.
Woook3r1 votesmaybe they buffed him. im loading the client
LordGeovanni1 votesI've been up and down these boards and any time i pointed out movement speed and movement speed buffs contribute to mobility I've been cursed to fuk. Crit as a whole isnt balanced in this game but.....
Oleandervine4 votesWhat mobility? Her net? If you mean her net, that barely qualifies as mobility, and it doesn't even qualify in the vein of mobility on Vayne, Lucian, Kalista, or Corki. Her net is a quick escape on a long CD, and for the most part, she's a very stationary ADC who needs the range due to her general lack of mobility.
Woook3r2 votesher net is 100% mobility.. it takes her over walls. no. its not kalista mobility. even you admit it is mobility tho.
Oleandervine1 votesher net is 100% mobility.. it takes her over walls. no. its not kalista mobility. even you admit it is mobility tho.
It's mobility in that it moves her. The actual mobility creep that people are having issues with are the insano dashes and hops that can be spammed like the ones on Lucian, Ezreal, Zed, Yasuo, Riven, and Kalista and more. A jump that has a long cooldown isn't even in the same ballpark as those.
Magnum Mack1 votesI agree that I would never classify Cait's net as reliable mobility. Yes, it can move her a few units, but I wouldn't say that is gamebreaking or warrants any kind of relevance in comparison to corki, Lucian, kindred, graves, kalist, tristana or Quinn. That one long cooldown "movement" ability is a last grasp at a kill or not dieing that often does nothing to save her in the long run.
Draven has a better movement speed steroid than Cait does. It's a second and a half of like 40%-65% movement speed based on level on like a 12 second cooldown. Cait gets one instant cast movement of a teemo and a half in size in on direction AND he net has to be burned to do that negating any extra damage it could otherwise be used for.
Lauchmelder1 votesShe is a bit too strong though. Her sieging power is insane, as well as her defensive power. It's mainly due to her traps.
Sneakyy XD3 votesCritting a minion for 1700 is not critting a champion for 1700. Even if she can crit harder than Draven (I would need to do the math and I can't right now) it would be every several shots not every shot. Draven's overall steroids are much much much much better than Caitlyn's which is why she gets good range. As for mobility, Draven gets a good amount. It's just for repositioning rather than actually escaping.
In short Draven is fine and Cait is fine. L2p
Nahui2 votesBecause he has harder burst and can crit harder actually with his Axes. He also has more global presence and has more sticking potential. Also has more practical CC.
Woook3r2 votesno. he cant crit harder with his axes. he crits for about 1100 MAX. And its more typical to see him on 900 crits. Thats a long way from the 1700 crits ive seen on cait.
""more practical cc" Theres nothing more practical than setting up a line of traps under a tower.
Magnum Mack1 votesAre we taking into account the extra 40% base on his spinning axes and that he has a higher attack speed as well as a global ult that can't be interrupted or bodyblocked? Are we talking they both used the same items exactly as well? She's not running a rapid fire cannon for the energized attacks? Is she buffed by her support or using the 500gold potion?
This whole threads sounds like some kid buttmad that his draven got outclassed by a cait that used a better build piloted by a player with a better grasp of what he was doing.
Woook3r1 voteswe arent taking into account the extra 40% base on dravens spinning axes because they dont work like that.
Woook3r1 votesyea i gues they changed it. he has 330 now
Sightless661 votesThey didn't change it. It's always been 330. I'm looking at his patch history right now. It has always been 330 (or 305 before everyone got 25 movespeed in V1.0.0.152). He's never had 325 movespeed.
AttackOnTeemos1 votes[{quoted}](name=Magnum Mack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1TEeHfFz,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-25T20:26:43.273+0000)
Are we taking into account the extra 40% base on his spinning axes and that he has a higher attack speed as well as a global ult that can't be interrupted or bodyblocked? Are we talking they both used the same items exactly as well? She's not running a rapid fire cannon for the energized attacks? Is she buffed by her support or using the 500gold potion?
This whole threads sounds like some kid buttmad that his draven got outclassed by a cait that used a better build piloted by a player with a better grasp of what he was doing.
Match History Confirms almost all his adc games he got out classed.[zombie-brand-clap]
SithesisLord1 votesTheres nothing more practical than setting up a line of traps under a tower.
That unless she has an Essence Reaver will eat through her mana faster than Pantheon spamming Qs.
Also, Draven can crit harder. Heck i´ve crit harder for nearly 2k with Sivir. And that was during the initial patches of Season 5.
Her supposed mobility spell, her net, is on a high cooldown, and eats through a lot of mana as well. She can either use it to engage or escape, and either way it´s a risky move. If she uses it to engage during a gank, she might not have it to escape if the gank goes south. If she escapes, she might not have it to guarantee a kill.
Her base MS is 325. The same Zyra has until her update hits live. Even with boots she's still slow.
Her range is higher because she isn´t mobile, is squishy, and can´t spam abilities because she starts Doran's Blade and not Doran's Ring to get all that mana back.
Billy VoHagen2 votesBecause Draven can do it 5 auto's in a row, while Caitlyn can do it once every 5 auto's.
Woook3r1 votesif draven does it 5 autos in a row, then thats 1k bonus dmg for him because the axes deal about 200-230 bonus dmg, max. U can get 300 bonus dmg if you SACRIFICE dps by going 5 IE's and no zeal items. Thats not realistic tho. So about 1k dmg every 5 autos.
If caitlyn gets even 80% of that dmg from her passive (which runaans helps her get faster), then shes op. Shes got too much range, waveclear, and mobility to justify dealing such a comparable amount of dmg from her passive (which also includes free armor pen). Shes NOT easy to dive OR assassinate. HOW do you justify giving her dmg that even LOOKS like Draven dmg.
Billy VoHagen1 votesSo you just think Caitlyn is OP?
Woook3r1 votesNo. Shes annoying and she follows the trend of league of mobility in that she doesnt have a single trade off for her mobility.
Shes like most every adc in that she is almost perfectly balanced and a "fair" champion. But she shouldnt have everything she does have and also have dmg.
Miror B1 votesNot exactly mobile (at least draven's "gap closer" can be spammed constantly without having to be precise). Actually try to dive her, and she can do almost nothing in response.
Woook3r1 votesWho said this was about the scenario of cait fighting draven? Its more about the way its harder to engage on to cait with somone like rek sai. You take more dmg coming in because she has more range, and then she nets u slows you, deals that qe dmg to you, then gets an empowered auto on you and continues to kite you.
I think its sort of ok. not like shes overpowered, but I do think draven needs something other than that bullcrap passive so that he isnt broken anymore.
Also, "dravens gapcloser". Cause thats exactly what you want to do on an adc. close gaps. lol
Akenero1 votesWho said this was about the scenario of cait fighting draven? Its more about the way its harder to engage on to cait with somone like rek sai. You take more dmg coming in because she has more range, and then she nets u slows you, deals that qe dmg to you, then gets an empowered auto on you and continues to kite you.
I think its sort of ok. not like shes overpowered, but I do think draven needs something other than that bullcrap passive so that he isnt broken anymore.
Also, "dravens gapcloser". Cause thats exactly what you want to do on an adc. close gaps. lol
Draven also has the 1100 damage EVERY auto, cait does not
Woook3r1 voteshe doesnt have it every auto. you think every attack is a spinning auto attack? The spinning axes give you about 200 ad man. thats 400 dmg every couple of autos.
Billy VoHagen2 voteshe doesnt have it every auto. you think every attack is a spinning auto attack?
yeah, if it's a good draven.
Woook3r1 votesactually its the opposite. If its a good draven then he will be auto attacking between autos. If you only use spinning axes then your dps is SHIT.
Akenero1 voteshe doesnt have it every auto. you think every attack is a spinning auto attack? The spinning axes give you about 200 ad man. thats 400 dmg every couple of autos.
You've heard of juggling axes, and the 2 axe stacks, right? Draven has statistically higher DPS than almost any other ADC, provided perfect play. Draven is extremely strong, he may not have guaranteed crits like cait, but he MORE than makes up for it through his insane snowballing, high kiting power, and global presence. If we're looking at ONE attack, sure cait does more, she has a ton of power set up in her headshot, and I agree with you in the case of one shot, cait does a ton of damage to anyone. But taking it over 2-3 autos, Draven has the advantage in spades. Especially if you consider he can auto>e>auto in about a second, which is the windup time for cait q, mind you. Regardless, both are huge Lane bullies, cait does damage from far away and forces you out of Lane with her consistently reliable poke. Draven is a bully since he straight up out-damages EVERYONE early gtrad and trading blow for blow is going to net him a kill.
It all depends on the player.
Miror B1 votesWho said this was about the scenario of cait fighting draven? Its more about the way its harder to engage on to cait with somone like rek sai. You take more dmg coming in because she has more range, and then she nets u slows you, deals that qe dmg to you, then gets an empowered auto on you and continues to kite you.
I think its sort of ok. not like shes overpowered, but I do think draven needs something other than that bullcrap passive so that he isnt broken anymore.
Also, "dravens gapcloser". Cause thats exactly what you want to do on an adc. close gaps. lol
I never said it was cait fighting draven? Rest of your rant looks like you more or less ignored my entire thing, this topic in general deserves the rating it currently has.
Woook3r1 votesi assumed that this was about draven trying to dive her.
Quepha1 votesDraven has very similar potential for max damage on a single auto attack. Caitlyn's headshot gives her a 50% AD damage bonus which is affected by crit stats vs. Draven's 85% AD. Caitlyn breaks even on this single attack at 35% crit % or 10% crit with IE's passive (although IE itself gives more crit than that) so she definitely pulls ahead in the late game at a maximum of 1.25xbonus AD, beating draven's multiplier by 0.4 bonus AD.
However, that is only on headshots. In an extended fight Caitlyn can only achieve a maximum of 1 headshot ever 4 auto attacks, Draven can potentially have his bonus AD on EVERY auto attack. Furthermore, Draven gets more gold than other champions while having very strong base damages to make him frightening much earlier into the game. He pays for this by having less scaling than other champions, he must use his bullying power to snowball. and simply sitting and farming is not the right way to play Draven.
Woook3r1 votesHe doesnt have the bonus ad on every auto. it takes 2 seconds for an axe to land meaning he can only throw a spinning axe once per second assuming he has two spinning. Typical as values are ~2 or more autos per second. That means he throws two axes and then has time to throw 3 more before the first one lands. Given that his axes provide about 200 dmg per spinning axe, that means that draven gets 400 bonus dmg every 2-3 seconds. Its not that much.
His w AS buff is JUST as impactful OR MORE SO than the q itself because it actually scales with crit.
People dont understand dravens acutal dmg output, which is not that much higher than another adc and is less than a few. His passive helps throw everyone off of his true capabilities. When he is uselessly behind, he looks like every other adc. useless. when he is slightly ahead in the mid game he looks like a fucking beast because he has up to 1k more gold than every one else.
Im more salty about draven's shit, toxic, not fun, uninteractive, and 0 gameplay component having passive than i am about cait having headshot dmg. I want a new fucking passive.
Quepha1 votesHe doesnt have the bonus ad on every auto. it takes 2 seconds for an axe to land meaning he can only throw a spinning axe once per second assuming he has two spinning. Typical as values are ~2 or more autos per second. That means he throws two axes and then has time to throw 3 more before the first one lands. Given that his axes provide about 200 dmg per spinning axe, that means that draven gets 400 bonus dmg every 2-3 seconds. Its not that much.
His w AS buff is JUST as impactful OR MORE SO than the q itself because it actually scales with crit.
People dont understand dravens acutal dmg output, which is not that much higher than another adc and is less than a few. His passive helps throw everyone off of his true capabilities. When he is uselessly behind, he looks like every other adc. useless. when he is slightly ahead in the mid game he looks like a fucking beast because he has up to 1k more gold than every one else.
Your numbers still put draven at 50% procs (which I think is very pessimistic considering how much movement must be performed by adcs in combat to maintain position) which is still twice as often as Caitlyn's maximum output if she is allowed to stand in a bush the entire fight.
Woook3r1 votesrunanns hurricane has her proccing headshot every other auto, does it not? gives three stacks out of 6? And she can use 50 cal net to get it as well so thats a lot of burst dmg as well. But the point isnt that she has greater dmg than draven. its that she has WAY better utility, WAY better waveclear, WAY better range, MUCH more safety (range + escape), COMPARABLE dmg from autos and BETTER dmg from abilities. And shes NOT more difficult. At least yasuo is difficult to play and shorter range..
She is a mobile adc and where is her tradeoff for that mobility? Its not in her dmg! Its not in her range! Or her waveclear!
There is 0 tradeoff for mobility in this game and that is the point of this thread. Mobility is ALWAYS a net positive.
Quepha1 votesrunanns hurricane has her proccing headshot every other auto, does it not? gives three stacks out of 6? And she can use 50 cal net to get it as well so thats a lot of burst dmg as well. But the point isnt that she has greater dmg than draven. its that she has WAY better utility, WAY better waveclear, WAY better range, MUCH more safety (range + escape), COMPARABLE dmg from autos and BETTER dmg from abilities. And shes NOT more difficult. At least yasuo is difficult to play and shorter range..
She is a mobile adc and where is her tradeoff for that mobility? Its not in her dmg! Its not in her range! Or her waveclear!
There is 0 tradeoff for mobility in this game and that is the point of this thread. Mobility is ALWAYS a net positive.
Draven has hard cc on his kit, Caitlyn does not.
Draven has more early power than Caitlyn, and early power ALWAYS matters more than late power.
Woook3r1 votesdraven does not have more early power than cait. cait shoud win lane against draven. If draven wins, its because of the supports. The traps make axe catching very difficult and she dominates a lot of other adc's as well.
Caitlyn has hard cc. Its called yordle snap trap and its connected to a shit ton of dmg from her q and passive.
Quepha1 votesdraven does not have more early power than cait. cait shoud win lane against draven. If draven wins, its because of the supports. The traps make axe catching very difficult and she dominates a lot of other adc's as well.
Caitlyn has hard cc. Its called yordle snap trap and its connected to a shit ton of dmg from her q and passive.
Draven absolutely has more early game power than Caitlyn, the comparison isn't even close. Draven has a higher winrate early game, Caitlyn has a higher winrate lategame. Draven has higher early damage, Draven has better chase, Draven is built to gain an early lead and snowball. If you think otherwise then you need to take a strong look at how you play Draven because you have some fundamental misunderstanding of how to use his kit.
Draven's matchup against Caitlyn has absolutely zero relevance in this conversation.
Yordle snap trap is not hard cc, you don't understand what hard cc means. Hard cc needs to interrupt channels, prevent fighting back from attacking and casting spells, yordle snap trap is only a root.
Woook3r1 votesThe win rate comment: Dravens early win rate is entirely due to his passive which is broken. Not because he is strong early. He is only strong after cashing that in and if you dont think so then you or your support dont know how to abuse him. Its very easy if you didnt know. You wait till Vi hits six and comes to kill him.
When he DOES get ahead he is even more opressive than a typical top laner. Sure. Ill give that to you. When you factor in that passive he is the more powerful one, but thats only after someone fucked up and gave him a kill. Without cashing in he is weaker because his kit is worse and I DONT like his passive because its toxic. He aint shit without it. I HATE that passive. He deserves something better. There is 0 gameplay associated with his passive and thats the complete opposite of his q which is FULL of gameplay.
Yes the matchup has very little to do, but when you want to talk about laning power, its better than nothing. Draven vs caitlyn is an early game matchup that happens sometimes and since she wins the match up it means she has more early power than she would if she lost it.
"hard cc needs to prevent fighting back". If cait is attacking at 650 range then you cant auto attack her after landing in that trap. It also prevents flash. It sure as hell aint soft cc according to that definition.
Quepha1 votesThe win rate comment: Dravens early win rate is entirely due to his passive which is broken. Not because he is strong early. He is only strong after cashing that in and if you dont think so then you or your support dont know how to abuse him. Its very easy if you didnt know. You wait till Vi hits six and comes to kill him.
When he DOES get ahead he is even more opressive than a typical top laner. Sure. Ill give that to you. When you factor in that passive he is the more powerful one, but thats only after someone fucked up and gave him a kill. Without cashing in he is weaker because his kit is worse and I DONT like his passive because its toxic. He aint shit without it. I HATE that passive. He deserves something better. There is 0 gameplay associated with his passive and thats the complete opposite of his q which is FULL of gameplay.
So Draven is weak when you forget he has a passive? I don't see the value in that observation. Every post you've made in this thread is completely invalidated if we ignore the fact that Caitlyn has a passive.
If Draven has early power because of his passive, then he has early power, end of story. You thinking it should be replaced is an entirely different conversation.
Yes the matchup has very little to do, but when you want to talk about laning power, its better than nothing. Draven vs caitlyn is an early game matchup that happens sometimes and since she wins the match up it means she has more early power than she would if she lost it.
Matchups are not just about raw power but the way the champions themselves match up against each other. Strong early game champions can still have bad matchups against weak early game champions, it doesn't mean they are not still picked for early game strength.
"hard cc needs to prevent fighting back". If cait is attacking at 650 range then you cant auto attack her after landing in that trap. It also prevents flash. It sure as hell aint soft cc according to that definition.
There exist spells in this game with a longer range than cait's auto range (even longer than her enhanced auto range through snap traps and net). There exists other targets the enemy can attack that may be in range of them even if Caitlyn is out of range. There exists support abilities that you want to prevent the casting of. There exists abilities that are channeled or have long cast times that you need to interrupt. A knockback is a dramatically more powerful form of cc, especially when it is on-demand. Hard cc removes all control of a character, that has always been the definition of it and it has always been considered in a completely different class of usefulness than roots.
Woook3r1 votesyea. i would like to forget about the passive. its horrible.
Ok ok. Tell me what is caits trade off for her mobility and range. Please explain.
Quepha1 votesyea. i would like to forget about the passive. its horrible.
Ok ok. Tell me what is caits trade off for her mobility and range. Please explain.
Weak early power before her autos scale Lack of hard cc No on-demand auto steroid Unreliable ability damage
Akenero1 votesThe win rate comment: Dravens early win rate is entirely due to his passive which is broken. Not because he is strong early. He is only strong after cashing that in and if you dont think so then you or your support dont know how to abuse him. Its very easy if you didnt know. You wait till Vi hits six and comes to kill him.
When he DOES get ahead he is even more opressive than a typical top laner. Sure. Ill give that to you. When you factor in that passive he is the more powerful one, but thats only after someone fucked up and gave him a kill. Without cashing in he is weaker because his kitse and I DONT like his passive because its toxic. He aint shit without it. I HATE that passive. He deserves something better. There is 0 gameplay associated with his passive and thats the complete opposite of his q which is FULL of gameplay.
Yes the matchup has very little to do, but when you want to talk about laning power, its better than nothing. Draven vs caitlyn is an early game matchup that happens sometimes and since she wins the match up it means she has more early power than she would if she lost it.
"hard cc needs to prevent fighting back". If cait is attacking at 650 range then you cant auto attack her after landing in that trap. It also prevents flash. It sure as hell aint soft cc according to that definition.
Then where is the argument? If we look PURELY at statistics, and assume both carries are at full build, let's say ER, IE, RFC, Berserkers furor, BT, and PD, who has more DPS in a PERFECT play scenario?
In a perfect play scenario, let's cut out all skillshots, and assume they're dodged. Thats Draven e and r, and Caitlin's q,w, and e. This means caitlyn needs to attack 8 times before her next headshot is ready. She scales worse with attack speed than Draven due to her Passive. Draven should have 3 axes if played to perfection in a vacuum, which is a bonus 85% ad. That is HUGE, ESPECIALLY when considering his permanant 40% bonus attack attack speed steroid. Draven also scales with lifesteal much stronger than caitlyn, trading range for sustain in this scenario. 100 units is traveled in under 1/3 of a second, which means cait has 1/3 of a second of complete safety. Perfect Draven play ALSO constitutes a steady flow of axes, so the only thing caitlyn can do to win in a perfect scenario is FRAME PERFECT KITING
The statistics don't add up to your argument, yes, she does more damage instantly, but Draven has a MUCH higher damage over time than caitlyn EVER will.
Incognonymous1 votesCait has:
Why the fuck do people still pretend she is okay? Because people would rather spam more cancerous champs? 6 item Cait will murder 6 item Draven before he even gets in auto attack range. Don't you even DARE try to say different. The advantage she has at all stages of the game is not even remotely debatable. Range is the ultimate safety net.
