@Riot, botlane diversity is part of the game now

D357R0Y3R·Jan 2, 2019·17 votes·10,770 views

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=le+rouge+et+noir

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=GO+toaster

a lot of high elo euw adc mains are playing non-adc champions AND adcs at the same time we've seen in the kespa cup that some adc mains did the same, playing adcs and non adc champions.

so now that you forced us to adapt and play non adc champions DO NOT CHANGE THAT

you can buff crit because it's shit, but don't try to make adcs mandatory again because this is personal but I don't want my efforts of adapting to vanish,

https://i.gyazo.com/e08f16d2cbfbb1002de631ea08b91b3b.png https://i.gyazo.com/8608a3d0764bda72d916843ead9c39c9.png

Just as Toaster said, counterpicking is a must right now. and we learn to adapt and counterpick everytime so I don't want my effort of learning how to play Brand/Mordekaiser to counterpick to vanish.

thank you

47 Comments

King LegoJan 2, 20198 votes

Counterpicking has always been an effective strategy since...forever.

I mean back in Season 6, I use to get stomped by a Fizz when I play Vel'Koz but one time I had enough and picked Kayle (Fizz's counter) and turned him into sushi.

Although to be fair, just because you counterpick doesn't mean you auto win.

But since this is bot lane stuff, what I said is mid lane stuff. I don't even know how much of a fiesta bot lane is these days.

SaevumJan 2, 20191 votes

I heard Brusiers were taking over bot lane.

King LegoJan 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I heard Brusiers were taking over bot lane.

That playstyle is still alive? The last time it was new the boards was getting loaded with adc mains complaining about it and say they can't play their class anymore because of how much of a fiesta it was.

SaevumJan 2, 20192 votes

Nah, its a meme joke.

Bot lane is being taken by non-crit chance reliant champions. You can also see some morde-blitz cheese, Ziggs-Morgana, and other strange combinations. Well, strange for an islander like me.

King LegoJan 2, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Nah, its a meme joke.

Bot lane is being taken by non-crit chance reliant champions. You can also see some morde-blitz cheese, Ziggs-Morgana, and other strange combinations. Well, strange for an islander like me.

I happen to play Sona in the bot lane. Given how I haven't played for quite a while (or not more so) I had no clue that this fiesta is still on going.

LhuhzJan 2, 20191 votes

Cassio is broken bot, but well, she's broken top and mid aswell to be fair.

King LegoJan 2, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Cassio is broken bot, but well, she's broken top and mid aswell to be fair.

Top lane wise I often go in when it's a guaranteed kill since I main Urgot top.

Mid lane wise she's no problem since I main Vel'Koz due to bigger range and more damage that she can't even get in range because even my e has more range than all of her kit except for maybe R.

I don't know what to say about bot lane though. I've never got a Cass vs me in lane.

LhuhzJan 2, 20191 votes

If you want to watch Cassio bot played on competitive you can check the final of Kespa Cup

For soloQ she's not popular bot, but neither is top to be fair, with a really close pickrate Cassio Top has 3% less winrate than Cassio Bot that reachs an absurd 55.4% winrate.

Why is she strong bot? Because she's just too strong overall and she will face underpowered adcs most of the time that she can stomp easily.

King LegoJan 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If you want to watch Cassio bot played on competitive you can check the final of Kespa Cup

For soloQ she's not popular bot, but neither is top to be fair, with a really close pickrate Cassio Top has 3% less winrate than Cassio Bot that reachs an absurd 55.4% winrate.

Why is she strong bot? Because she's just too strong overall and she will face underpowered adcs most of the time that she can stomp easily.

Makes sense. Especially with the double kill potential but still depends on the comp.

HyquiemJan 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Cassio is broken bot, but well, she's broken top and mid aswell to be fair.

Cassio is only broken b/c the things that kick her out of midlane are out of the games state themselves and yes I’m mentioning the pro play champions Azir and Ryze, where as one puts her to place the other kites her and kills her. Though they are not effective so then we have thing such as Gallo and kassadin but both of them can easily be baned and arguably beaten by Cassio.

It’s just like how aatrox was before his rework where as he was good, but then considered broken by riot and reworked. Except at that time aatrox could arguably be beaten except those things that would beat him were not in the state of the game.

Yes indeed if you buff azir and Ryze you will tin can the games state of how much early game impacts the whole game however if you do so then there will only be 2 champs that are broken in the midlane therefore adjustment would be allowed however riot considered pro play more important so they would never take the option of just having 2 broken things instead of normal things all of a sudden come to power being better than the weak things,

LhuhzJan 3, 20192 votes

I would buy your narrative if Botlane Cassiopia was not stronger than Midlane Cassiopeia which happens right now.

She's just too strong overall.

HyquiemJan 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I would buy your narrative if Botlane Cassiopia was not stronger than Midlane Cassiopeia which happens right now.

She's just too strong overall.

Well botlane itself is decimated.

AirKingNeoJan 2, 20192 votes

They never did.

SaevumJan 2, 20191 votes

You don't say

AR URFJan 2, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-02T18:39:22.577+0000)

Counterpicking has always been an effective strategy since...forever.

I mean back in Season 6, I use to get stomped by a Fizz when I play Vel'Koz but one time I had enough and picked Kayle (Fizz's counter) and turned him into sushi.

Although to be fair, just because you coubterpick doesn't mean you auto win.

But since this is bot lane stuff, what I said is mid lane stuff. I don't even know how much of a fiesta bot lane is these days.

From what I remember from seasons long long ago, counter picking gave you the lane advantage, but it wasn't game braking. Like for example if you have all squishies and someone picks Kayn blue. That's very game breaking.

King LegoJan 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-01-02T23:00:08.107+0000)

From what I remember from seasons long long ago, counter picking gave you the lane advantage, but it wasn't game braking. Like for example if you have all squishies and someone picks blue. That's very game breaking.

But blue Kayn is specifically designed as an anti-squishee...that's not game breaking. The game breaking part on Kayn is his red form because it's specifically supposed to be an anti tank bruiser but it's working for both anti squishee and tank while it's supposed to be only for one of those.

AR URFJan 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-02T23:13:01.466+0000)

But blue Kayn is specifically designed as an anti-squishee...that's not game breaking. The game breaking part on Kayn is his red form because it's specifically supposed to be an anti tank bruiser but it's working for both anti squishee and tank while it's supposed to be only for one of those.

in a 1v1 scenario, but usually he pops out of the wall and blues his entire kit, then runs away again. and makes runs all over the map. get him fed enough and clearing camps mean very little.

Problem is he's able to do that to an entire group cause aoe.

https://vimeo.com/268230762

King LegoJan 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-02T23:19:28.593+0000)

in a 1v1 scenario, but usually he pops out of the wall and blues his entire kit, then runs away again. and makes runs all over the map. get him fed enough and clearing camps mean very little.

Problem is he's able to do that to an entire group cause aoe.

To my understanding blue Kayn is meant to be an Assassin with all the strength and weakness of Assassins 1v1s is supposed to be his domain. While red Kayn is meant to be a bruiser with all the strength and weakness of bruisers so team fight is supposed to be his domain.

AR URFJan 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-02T23:24:36.139+0000)

To my understanding blue Kayn is meant to be an Assassin with all the strength and weakness of Assassins 1v1s is supposed to be his domain. While red Kayn is meant to be a bruiser with all the strength and weakness of bruisers so team fight is supposed to be his domain.

Did you watch the video?

King LegoJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-02T23:40:27.850+0000)

Did you watch the video?

They were all already like half hp...come on...

AR URFJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T08:43:25.150+0000)

They were all already like half hp...come on...

But that wasn't a 1v1 lol.

King LegoJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T10:40:57.305+0000)

But that wasn't a 1v1 lol.

Regardless it's not concrete enough to prove Kayn's problem. His blue form may be strong and can burst fast but he's also squishee. Red Kayn can burst fast while going tanky which makes it more useful than blue.

Riot is making a change where if he gets whichever bar full 1st he automatically changes without any choice. That way it will time down the red form but might make Kayn players gank lanes less if the enemy is a ranged.

AR URFJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T11:01:54.795+0000)

Regardless it's not concrete enough to prove Kayn's problem. His blue form may be strong and can burst fast but he's also squishee. Red Kayn can burst fast while going tanky which makes it more useful than blue.

Riot is making a change where if he gets whichever bar full 1st he automatically changes without any choice. That way it will time down the red form but might make Kayn players gank lanes less if the enemy is a ranged.

blue kayn>squishy team comp Red kayn>tanky team comp

King LegoJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=0000000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T11:23:57.260+0000)

blue kayn>squishy team comp Red kayn>tanky team comp

That's basically what I said... And the problem is red Kayn can do both.

AR URFJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T11:26:12.925+0000)

That's basically what I said... And the problem is red Kayn can do both.

I don't disagree, but blue kayn is a problem too because of how far his w distance reaches.

King LegoJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T11:58:04.846+0000)

I don't disagree, but blue kayn is a problem too because of how far his w distance reaches.

Ah yeah that too I guess.

Leaf on BushJan 2, 20196 votes

As if counter picking was ever not strong.... what kind of analysis is that please?

D357R0Y3RJan 2, 20191 votes

He said that due to heavy snowball counterpick is more a thing than before

I did not say it never existed, I just said that since it exists I don't want my effort to vanish

BALDG1VEN BOOMERJan 2, 20198 votes

Counterpicking was always a thing regardless of game state lol..

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20193 votes

But it's stronger or weaker in different metas. For example, during ardent meta it didn't matter if you countered Trist lane with Cait, you won't be able to do anything with advantage from counterpick bot only.

LhuhzJan 2, 20191 votes

But it did, you just took a horrible example.

Specially C9 went out of groups on Worlds 2017 by playing Caitlyn botlane against the weak early games adcs as Tristana that you say it didn't mattered if she was countered in lane.

Seriously, it's even funny that you just took that case to make your argument.

LTK KoRoJan 2, 20192 votes

And then series vs WE happened, where Cait as a pick went 0:3 and got banned twice.

D357R0Y3RJan 2, 20191 votes

I did not say that it never was a thing

L0L1S 0NLYJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf on Bush,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1T7IoP8p,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-02T19:30:12.548+0000)

As if counter picking was ever not strong.... what kind of analysis is that please?

U cant counterpick Teemo i can crush any champion in league of legends with Teemo IGN-EUNE(jozomafijozo129)

Abibyama IIJan 2, 20193 votes

Didn't they say like "Yah marksmen needs help but we can't really buff them too much or we just go back to right we are" for 7-8 months straight now?

ClosarJan 2, 20192 votes

Let me tell you Riot's cycle of balance:

Over buff something.
Over nerf it.
Repeat.

SaevumJan 2, 20194 votes

I disagree, i think it's more like:

Buff a champion or something.
Release a skin of what you recently buffed.
it didn't worked? buff if more. It worked? Nice. Elaborate an excuse now and nerf it.
Meme about it. #better nerf sona.
Repeat.

RiootGamesSuckssJan 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=le+rouge+et+noir

http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=GO+toaster

a lot of high elo euw adc mains are playing non-adc champions AND adcs at the same time we've seen in the kespa cup that some adc mains did the same, playing adcs and non adc champions.

so now that you forced us to adapt and play non adc champions DO NOT CHANGE THAT

you can buff crit because it's shit, but don't try to make adcs mandatory again because this is personal but I don't want my efforts of adapting to vanish,

https://i.gyazo.com/e08f16d2cbfbb1002de631ea08b91b3b.png https://i.gyazo.com/8608a3d0764bda72d916843ead9c39c9.png

Just as Toaster said, counterpicking is a must right now. and we learn to adapt and counterpick everytime so I don't want my effort of learning how to play Brand/Mordekaiser to counterpick to vanish.

thank you

I don't agree with your opinion. I prefer it the way it used to be.

The JamJan 3, 20192 votes

Diversity should just be removed from the vocabulary of riot. Diversity doesn't exist in this game.

There will always been a better role, rune, item, or just about anything that people will take over the other.

Diversity needs to be removed from the bot lane, and they need to balance around the set meta of

Bruisers/tanks top Assassin/mages mid Jungle has always had diversity until the scuttle update, so they need to revert that Supports/Marksman bot

Starstro64Jan 3, 20191 votes

Someone is salty. Adc was the only one class role. Diversity has always been a thing. You mentioned two classes in everything but support and adc but support has enchanters poke and tank supports. But lane should have another class allowed in it. The biggest problem is the penetration meta where tanks get one shot but they are buffing tanks in 9.1 like sej and ornn and buffing sej the right way. More tank stats and a little more damage (which is questionable but I'll take jt). Once 9.1 comes in every role will have multiple play styles and that's good. And about the rune thing, that's a little less diverse cause usually a champion takes similar runes every game.but different champs take different runes. Pretty much anything but glacial has at least one champion who uses that rune

Bronze GOATJan 3, 20192 votes

Riot specifically tried to open up bot lane. It's a slap in the face to tell them not to do something they literally made clear they weren't trying to do. And as far counter-picking goes, countering a specific comp or champ is fine, but countering an entire class of champions is unhealthy.

ZardoJan 3, 20191 votes

The issue is that most people don't queue for adc to play a bot lane duo lane with their trusty random autofilled support, they play adc to play a marksman, so if marksman feel good to play they will be played the vast majority of the time.

Secretly a PhosJan 3, 20191 votes

Hold up. That hardly makes sense. You're saying that if marksmen we're actually good, people would play them, but how is that an issue? It seems to me that the issue doesn't happen until a champion or group of champions reaches a point where you have to pick them or pick against them. Making marksmen viable doesn't automatically do that.

Secretly a PhosJan 3, 20191 votes

For example, you buff an infinite scaling or very high snowball potential champion like Nasus, Cho'Gath, Neeko, Kindred, etc(say, increasing scaling from abilities/passive). Then there's an issue, because if they get one or two kills early they snowball to a point where them stomp your team. E.X. Kindred with a lot of marks melts you in about a second as is, but that requires being fed. If you didn't need to be fed, you'd basically counter everything, as you outrange pretty much everyone, deal really high current hp damage, have very high mobility and attack speed, and deal around 20% or more missing hp damage, increasing on low hp targets. That kind of buff would reach a point where you basically have to play it, but even though marksmen have high scaling, buffing them to a state of being viable or improving itemization doesn't have the same effect that increasing their snowball potential would have. For example, ezreal being viable wouldn't make him strong to the point where you win every game or get a penta every team fight, while doing something like increasing their ad scaling makes them basically kill you every single time.

ZardoJan 3, 20192 votes

Essentially, i'm saying that champions aside from marksman could be meta if marksman are strong botlane, but nobody would try anything else because pretty much the only reason people queue for adc is to play marksman, so there will never be diversity.