Quinn mains: There's a reason Riot hasn't buffed Quinn in ages

FalconPawwwwnch·Jul 11, 2015·93 votes·8,236 views

It's because she's one of the most oppressive champions to play against when you're a melee champion

Instant disengage + range + high autoattack damage would be bad enough alone, but you can't even use bushes to try to farm vs her

There's no options when laning vs Quinn as many melee champions, you either try to cs and lose, or you try to use bushes and lose, your only option is to afk. At least I can use bushes vs. other cancer lanes like Vayne/Teemo

Riot should fix her bugs as they should with all bugs, If you want quinn buffs then she needs a rework first, she's a stupid champion in her current state and nobody wants her buffed except you guys

Edit: For all you salty Quinn defenders saying "wow you just got owned by a Quinn" please use some sense and check the last few games of my match history first before making absurd ad hominems, I haven't vs'd a Quinn in awhile

109 Comments

SH AzykanJul 11, 201590 votes

I don't want her buffed. I want her AA to work like every other adc's so I stop cancelling them simply because I had played a game as jinx the game before...

Just give her a couple QoL fixes and then if needed Riot can balance her according to the strength she SHOULD have

KingsgraveJul 11, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I don't want her buffed. I want her AA to work like every other adc's so I stop cancelling them simply because I had played a game as jinx the game before...

Just give her a couple QoL fixes and then if needed Riot can balance her according to the strength she SHOULD have

That is technically a buff because it would increase her playrate and winrate.

Icestar1186Jul 11, 201545 votes

Fixing a bug is not a buff or nerf. It is a bugfix.

KingsgraveJul 11, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Fixing a bug is not a buff or nerf. It is a bugfix.

If it improves the Champion's gameplay it's a buff

If it doesn't, it's a nerf

Rengar got bug fixes all around right after he was released and became literally the best Champion in the game for a patch

Icestar1186Jul 11, 201523 votes

A bugfix is making something work as intended. For example, autoattack animations lining up with damage being done. A buff is a deliberate change to the power of a champion/item/whatever.

Trias000Jul 11, 20155 votes

A bugfix can still be a buff/nerf. For example, making a runegalave not proc Luden's was essentially a nerf. Doesn't really matter if it was intended or not. Only if it increases or decreases the chances of winning of said champion/item.

The EcdysiastJul 11, 20157 votes

Fixing factory defects doesn't make a product better. It makes it work as intended.

TheWolfSageJul 11, 20155 votes

And if it was intended to be better than it is now, it's a buff. Why are people having such a hard time with this?

Buff does not mean "We are tuning up the numbers of this particular item/ability/champion as to increase its strength and viability". It means "We are making a change to this thing, which will directly or indirectly make it stronger". If Karthus' ult had a bug that made his wall 50% smaller than it was supposed to be when cast to his left, and that got fixed, it would be a huge buff. When the Scuttler area of reveal was fixed to match its graphics, that was a huge nerf. Fixing skillshots to actually hit champions they pass through is a big buff for any champ with a skillshot.

Fixing Quinn's AA would make her easier to use, increase the number of attacks she landed without accidentally cancelling them, and therefore improve her damage. It is therefore a buff.

Trias000Jul 11, 20152 votes

Exactly. Why are people so stubborn on semantics? Let's say a champion's tooltip says an ability deals 200 damage, when in reality it's only 150. But the champion is balanced and works fine. Now, there are two ways to fix this bug, but Riot are Riot, so they choose the dumber option and make the ability actually deal 200 damage. Now, people above would say this is not a buff, but mere bugfix. Doesn't matter that it would raise the champions winrate, playrate, banrate, or simply his strength and chances of winning. Not a buff, because reasons!

DeliothJul 12, 20151 votes

Actually if you read the patch notes, they more often than not change the tooltip to match the actual. I don't think I've ever seen them change a number to match a tooltip.

The exception is when Riot does a patch and says that they're changing a number (damage, duration, &c.) but the actual number didn't get changed, just the tooltip, i.e. if a damage was supposed to go from 200>300, but the tooltip now says 300 and it actually does 200.

Trias000Jul 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Actually if you read the patch notes, they more often than not change the tooltip to match the actual. I don't think I've ever seen them change a number to match a tooltip.

You entirely missed my point.

DeliothJul 12, 20151 votes

Well... You were saying that Riot arbitrarily chooses to raise the damage to meet the tooltip... but that's blatantly wrong. They consistently choose to change the tooltip to meet the damage.

Whatever the point is, the facts you're basing it on are wrong. And a building cannot stand without a foundation.

Trias000Jul 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well... You were saying that Riot arbitrarily chooses to raise the damage to meet the tooltip... but that's blatantly wrong. They consistently choose to change the tooltip to meet the damage.

It was just an example...

Trias000Jul 11, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Fixing factory defects doesn't make a product better.

So a working car isn't better than a broken one?

Remlap1223Jul 12, 20152 votes

That's some dumb logic. You're expecting a working product when you buy something. It's not extremely awesome if you buy something and it works, you're simply getting what you paid for. If you buy something that's broken, it sucks, because you're not getting the product that you paid for.

Emperor TimeJul 12, 20151 votes

why don't we all agree that Quinn has been garbage tier ever since release and that she needs a kit rework.

EnvyDragonJul 12, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Chronicle 3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1PQzpeRO,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-07-12T13:40:55.961+0000)

why don't we all agree that Quinn has been garbage tier ever since release

You had me...

and that she needs a kit rework.

...then you lost me.

The EcdysiastJul 22, 20151 votes

The point isn't that a broken Prius isn't worse than a working Prius. The point is the broken Prius doesn't show how that car design was SUPPOSED to work.

BeatzBoyFTWJul 11, 20154 votes

Im pretty sure it's an increased attack speed frame, just like how they did it with Zilean's AA. Looks like a buff to me. Wasn't AA suppose to be cancelled easily by AA and then moving around, or else every ADC wouldnt have a Kalista passive (the disability to cancel AA passive).

Icestar1186Jul 11, 201515 votes

The problem is that the damage and animation don't always match up. It's not supposed to work like that. Of course you can cancel autos, but you shouldn't think it has hit when it hasn't yet. If anything, the animation would need to be longer so that it goes until the point when you should cancel. The actual attack speed would be unchanged.

EnvyDragonJul 11, 20156 votes

Remember when Rumble's Q was bugged and barely hit when it was supposed to? To compensate, it literally had more damage potential than Crowstorm.

They fixed the bug eventually, and now it consistently deals damage in the hitbox it appears to have... but if they'd just left it like that, he'd have been gamebreaking. So they nerfed it down to reasonable levels. If they hadn't touched the numbers, the bugfix would have been a huge, HUGE buff.

That's what I expect out of a Quinn bugfix - they repair her janky fucking attack frames, maybe change the Harrier mark to a pop-on-hit from a modify-next-autoattack (so if Valor marks them while your arrow's already flying you don't have to wait an hour for Quinn to load the right ammo), and then nerf her numbers to reasonable levels.

When fighting against ADCs, Quinn's shitty QoL gives her a massive disadvantage. When toplane, that doesn't matter as much - she has range and lots of abilities that let her stay at arm's length. Nerfing her numbers will hurt her toplane matchup more than QoL fixes will help it, and I'd argue the QoL will help her botlane enough (because the demands are different) that numbers nerfs won't be a big deal.

J EpsteinJul 11, 201541 votes

Somebody just lost to Quinn and Valor becase Quinn and Valor is never seen lol.

Actual Quinn and Valor mains don't want them buffed whatsoever. We only want some QoL changes. Honestly, if Quinn s AA didn't consistently cancel even after flying full range and making a "hit target" sound on the target, we would be happy.

The only people that want a buff or rework are people who don't know how to play Quinn and Valor to their potential.

Quinn and Valor is only popular top and mid Lane is because Quinns AA is so bugged and unintuitive, it makes her an unreliable adc. She isn't meta top is because Champs like irelia do what top assassin quinn tries to do better I can take any adc and wreck top lane solo q, but the team usually needs a f8ghter\ tank which falls on top lane most of the time.

junglerboy16Jul 11, 20154 votes

that AA consistency buff is actually pretty substantial and is the only buff anyone ever asks for.

Quinn's AA is left bad for the same reason Poppy's was left slow and disjointed: Riot doesn't Want Quinn to be viable until they fix her play pattern. Iron stylus confirmed that he and the team that worked on Quinn were unsatisfied with the finished product and would have held her back from release if they weren't still working on a deadline (unlike now where they strive for completeness rather than turnout).

Nameless VoiceJul 11, 20153 votes

IronStylus is an artist. He said he was unhappy with her aesthetics, not her gameplay.

junglerboy16Jul 11, 201512 votes

he said the whole team was unhappy with her on many levels, from design aesthetic to gameplay to quality of work.

RetillinJul 11, 201528 votes

.... Kalista ....

But seriously, I almost never see "buff Quinn" threads. It's almost always "fix Quinn" threads. Ones that talk about her MANY MANY bugs. The reason she is played top lane, is because she is not a very good adc. But she is a good lane bully. She doesn't hyper scale, her auto attack range is crap, her attack speed is crap, ect... But most of this doesn't matter because she is good in a solo lane.

Even as a lane bully top lane (her best role) you see her weakness. Her Vault ("instant" disengage) can be stop by any interrupt, so pulls/stuns/snares/ect.. counter it. Her blind will sometimes blind her (when in Valor form) as well as have some wonky timing (ie can be cast but enemy auto attacks go through anyways). Her passive is a joke at times (randomly not proct). Her ult is laughable for an adc. Ect... All of this means she is forced into the lane of misfit toys. Top lane. Where champions go if they can not do any other lane better. She does counter melee really really well, but any gap closer and she is in trouble.

But there are a LOT of champions that are more oppressive vs melee (I agree she craps on them rather well in lane). A lot of those also scale much better. So if you don't like her Top Lane, then you SHOULD want her buffed. So she can get back to bot lane with her support.

aaronconlinJul 11, 201514 votes

I've never seen a "buff Quinn" thread except maybe to fix her execute damage being laughably low. Other than that, it's been bug fixes that took over a year to fix and her asking for a QoL change to make her auto attacks actually work and stop being so clunky and randomly cancel

Stiv1234Jul 11, 201510 votes

This is what I think everytime I see a "Buff Quinn" thread.

Baby GhoulJul 11, 201510 votes

I have to agree, even in her current state, she's a pain to play against if you're a melee champion. That's why she's much better in top lane, and she counters some pretty popular picks there.

I hope she gets reworked soon though. I'd like to see her be a more common pick.

FadedpfJul 11, 20158 votes

She could still be a little more consistent and get some quality of life buffs

TwitchInMyPantsJul 11, 20156 votes

Her E is between the distance of vayne's tumble and flash and her R breaks when you're in combat. Almost any melee character is going to have a gap closer that'll meet that range. The most oppressive part of her kit is the blind and many melee characters have a spell based kit or at least spells that are useful enough to give them good threat presence on Quinn. Its not like she just shows up and wins lane for free, counterplay is definitely there. And honestly if it'd mean giving a minor rework for her to be good I think it'd be worth it to buff her, tho honestly her kit's main problem is the bugs and the absurd ult cd.

FrikgeekJul 11, 20152 votes

What the fuck are you smoking man? Her Leap drops her near her AA range, which is 525. Flash has 425 range, her leap has a lot more range than flash. It also slows you and when you finally manage to get to her she just blinds you. She's basically a better version of teemo toplane and she's not very fun to play against as a melee.

The EcdysiastJul 11, 20152 votes

Sometimes it drops her on the wrong side of the opponent, under the turret. Sometimes the next auto doesn't hit even when it makes the noise. Most top laners don't build AS, so her blind only ever stops 3 AA's at most during the lane phase. You haven't played Teemo if you think Quinn is better than him top, with his 700 damage targeted blind verses her maybe 300 damage skillshot.

FlashnFuseJul 11, 20155 votes

Personally I would like to see two charges on W(parity with all other vision granting abilities), a nicer attack animation that i don't cancel after hearing the attack sound complete(quinn mains can avoid cancelling their autoattacks most of the time, but its more of a pain in the ass than you could possibly imagine), and a shorter ult cooldown.

She's not exactly weak, but she is inconsistent. She doesn't snowball out of control when she gets ahead, she avalanches. If she falls behind though, it's almost impossible to get out of the rut. There are tons of buff ideas that get thrown around for Quinn, but I firmly believe that she can become insanely OP if she gets buffed in the wrong direction.

jade harley BARKJul 11, 20155 votes

Learn to play against her, then. Just because she may counter a champion does not automatically make her "oppressive" and unworthy of any QoL stuff. She is a champion with an indentity crisis. She's meant to be an adc, but others do that role so much better, so she's forced elsewhere where she usually still isn't in the best position. We just want riot to fix her and possibly rework her to where she has a more defined role.

CrettJul 11, 20154 votes

She's pretty oppressive to everyone honestly Being an ADC and slowly trundling over to your tower while watching her descend on you at the speed of a hawk (literally) isn't a great feeling

TsumikiriJul 11, 20154 votes

As a Quinn player (mid assassin mostly - its really fun imo) at this point I just want her to stay the same. Yeah the AA fix would be nice, but I'm afraid that when Riot starts changing Quinn they'll try to make her an ADC. I love assassin Quinn. <3

And, yeah, she is oppressive vs melee but so is like every ranged top laner. Sometimes you get a losing match top and just have to hunker down and wait it out or try to contribute in some way other than kills/farm.

The Bardic GayJul 11, 20154 votes

Quinn mains don't generally ask for buffs as much as bugfixes but that's been said hundreds of times in this thread.

Calling vault an "instant disengage" is funny. To say nothing about bugs where the vaulting goes haywire, it's among the most easily interrupted disengage skills in the game. The brush thing I'm finding a little hard to picture. Quinn can only reveal brush every 60 seconds early game, unless you're talking about harrier giving vision, which can be avoided entirely by simply attacking when either another target is already marked or she just proced it.

Now, is quinn a healthy champ? Eh, not really, she can be pretty oppressive, but there are a lot of ranged champions who can be taken top lane who are far more consistent than quinn when it comes to both scaling and kit functionality (gnar, kayle)

bradJul 11, 20154 votes

falcon pawnch thread please ignore

HEXXEN9xJul 11, 20154 votes

Dude you just described Caitlyn

MohawkBirdJul 11, 20153 votes

[deleted]

NemeBroJul 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Any ranged champion is oppressive to play when you are a melee champion in top lane, so I don't see your point. I can take almost any ADC top lane and make that laners life a living hell. Hell, I played Draven top against a Malphite not too long ago and did exactly that. Balancing a champion around a lane that she wasn't even meant to be in in the first place isn't what they should be doing. The only reason they go Quinn top instead of ADC is because of all the bugs she has anyways.

Draven would get eaten alive by most competent top laners IMHO.

If a Darius hooks a Draven, that Draven is losing most of his health bar pre six, and if Darius is level six Draven is dying. If a Darius hooks a Quinn, she easily disengages then continues to beat the shit out of his health bar which she has been doing. You can replace Draven with champions like Riven, Renekton, or maybe Tryndamere. All are countered by Quinn. All would eat most ADCs top lane alive (I'm just hoping Kalista top doesn't become a thing, then top laners shall know Hell).

I frankly don't know how a Malphite had trouble with you. Draven is squishier, doesn't benefit from a passive shield to mitigate poke, and Malphite's poke sort of slows Draven to make it easier to catch him. Though I guess Malphite's damage might be low enough that that doesn't matter, I don't know, I don't play him.

And if all else fails, Draven is easy as shit to gank top lane. Quinn a bit less so. Once again, I just hope Kalista doesn't become popular top.

thePandevJul 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Draven would get eaten alive by most competent top laners IMHO.

If a Darius hooks a Draven, that Draven is losing most of his health bar pre six, and if Darius is level six Draven is dying. If a Darius hooks a Quinn, she easily disengages then continues to beat the shit out of his health bar which she has been doing. You can replace Draven with champions like Riven, Renekton, or maybe Tryndamere. All are countered by Quinn. All would eat most ADCs top lane alive (I'm just hoping Kalista top doesn't become a thing, then top laners shall know Hell).

I frankly don't know how a Malphite had trouble with you. Draven is squishier, doesn't benefit from a passive shield to mitigate poke, and Malphite's poke sort of slows Draven to make it easier to catch him. Though I guess Malphite's damage might be low enough that that doesn't matter, I don't know, I don't play him.

And if all else fails, Draven is easy as shit to gank top lane. Quinn a bit less so. Once again, I just hope Kalista doesn't become popular top.

Darius vs. Quinn: Hook her when she Es

Done.

Yosuke ApperuJul 11, 20152 votes

meanwhile vayne against melees is fine? so much worse than quinn.

EvilRabbittJul 11, 20152 votes

The reason I don't play Quinn isn't because she is weak, it's because of the1.5 million bugs. Autos canceling during or after hit animation, autos not proccing passive, autos sometimes just not doing damage. Q flying through targets, q not blinding, q occassionally doing double damage. W not applying vision over certain walls, w not applying assists for vision given despite ashe's e doing so. Her e being a tether instead of a mark- meaning I can theoretically fly across the map via thresh lantern or pantheon ult. Her ult not applying base damage at times is annoying. Those are the ones I encountered in my try-out game. I'm sure there are more. If those got fixed, I'd happily play her more and would be fairly certain Quinn mains would be fine with nerfs.

Edit: corrected spelling. Also made this post to point out what Quinn mains are asking for in terms of "buffs".

KoKobotoJul 11, 20152 votes

Im guessing this guy got shut down in lane for the first 15minutes? And Quinn the most oppressive adc top laner? LMFAO, any adc would do better top lane its just that Quinn sucks bot so she goes top kinda like how Urgot was played top for awhile then he got some nice buffs and w/e You could be just as oppressive with iunnno KALISTA or w/e else you want as long as they have a form of disengage And that one form of instant disengage that Quinn has involves dashing into the enemy lmfao, also she doesn't have "high auto attack damage" she has the same auto attack damage as every other adc or even melee champ that decides to start with some ad runes and offensive masteries....

I can literally list everything you just said with playing **Caitlyn **top as an example:

"It's because she's one of the most oppressive champions to play against when you're a melee champion

Instant disengage (which is more reliable and amiable) + range**(625 more than Quinn by 100)** + high autoattack damage**(more reliable with passive, but this argument is BS)** would be bad enough alone, but you can't even use bushes to try to farm vs her (Caitlyn can set up her traps to create a safe zone)

There's no options when laning vs Caitlyn as many melee champion, you either try to cs and lose, or you try to use bushes and lose"

Honestly it doesn't even take much to shut down Quinn top, one gank is all you need and because Quinn only does well if she gets a lead (cuz she has shitty ratios) a melee will easily rekt her with a few engages after getting ahead and should be able to ignore her

Edit: Not to mention the tons of bugs she has, people don't even ask for Quinn buffs too often its all about Quinn BUGS

ValsingJul 11, 20152 votes

IMO. At this point Riot needs to rework her and quit putting her off. She a champion with frustrating bugs and a identity crisis. Of which you can't fix or buff her without taking a risk at making her to oppressive to melee lanes. That has been said by most everyone on this post.

As someone who loved playing Quinn for most Season Three and Season Four. I wish Riot do something about her. Her theme and story are very strong. But it's hard to really get behind a champion when it is not fun to play against her (and sometimes as her). Her visuals are good and healthy. So all you really need to do is a Kit rework. (Think of Ashe or Viktor) I would love to see her reworked so she can work for both Top and ADC with out being oppressive or weak in either.

Also for those wonder why don't play her much now. I don't have much fun playing in solo lanes. Even when I do well. And seeing as Quinn ADC is not to strong. This due to the fact she tends to fizzle out late game unless really fed and struggles in 2v1 and 2v2 situations imo. Only really leaving top lane her only viable position. So I've laid down my crossbow till something changes

CindikleJul 11, 20152 votes

Most Quinn mains are perfectly aware of this.

Her biggest problem is her bugs. This isn't news.

But a mini-rework would probably be welcomed. Mainly on her ult. Make Valor more assassin-like.

Passive - Valor form now reduces the cooldown of basic abilities by 1 second per auto attack. Getting a kill resets Quinn's basic abilities when leaving Tag Team.

R - Damage removed. CD reduced to 45 seconds. Duration removed, but the MS will no longer apply after 20 seconds. Available at level 1 and does not rank up. Abilities have 6 ranks. If Quinn activates while targeting a target marked with Harrier Valor will dash to the target, consuming the mark. If Valor activates while near a marked target, Quinn will land a basic attack on that target as she comes down. This will not apply the Valor kill reset. CD does not go below 25s til out of Tag Team.

Q - Unchanged for both forms.

W - If Valor uses the active it will apply Harrier to the next target she hits with a basic attack within 3 seconds. This mark cannot be activated by Valor. Quinn gains +50 basic attack range when attacking targets marked with Harrier.

E - Base damage is increased by 100% and scaling is increased by up to 100/200/300/400/500% based on distance from target. Increasing the closer you are. (Remember her base and scaling on E is not that large to begin with). CD changed to 24/21/18/15/12/9. Procing Harrier damage reduces this CD by 1.5 seconds. Doubled vs champions. (I word damage as R can consume the mark when activating R. Otherwise E->R would have Valor start with a 6s E which will quickly drop with basic attacks. This is meant to be her dive pattern but the 2nd E is cannot be too short to allow counterplay to it's damage.)

More power beyond lanning phase. But a doubled CD on E at rank 1 will really hurt her early game safety. Champions with low CD mobility that she tends to even counter(Riven being the extreme) will now be able to bully her if her E is on CD or she didn't rank it first.

Her assassination pattern mostly requires that her team be there to back her up. If she gets a kill she can escape by going to Quinn form and using E to get out. But E is a risky move and Quinn is squishy. As an assassin she'll still likely get destroyed when going in. It'd like talon going in without his stealth. This is fine as she also gets to be a backup ADC. Talon gets to be a sub-par AD caster without his ulti.

Overall weaker early, stronger mid/late. Reduces what makes her so toxic in top lane. She'd probably move to mid lane as her main lane and situational top.