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Animation cancel double standard

Moody P··53 votes·16,460 views

Why do some champions get to be """balanced""" around being able to cancel their animations because it's "skillful" but Riot also goes out of their way to not let other champions have the same treatment?

Renekton gets to Tiamat out of his animations for faster combo-ing, particularly with W so he can disengage while you're still CC'd

Riven gets to cancel anything into anything and dump her entire combo on you at around the same time you actually get to react to her

Illaoi has had far more limited animation cancels removed from her kit for no discernible reason despite not being a champion who's ever been unreasonably strong. At one point she could cancel her E's animation into W, which only worked if she executed it fast enough and also had something to W onto. Has also had W made uncancellable, so she's forced to sit through her long animations.

Garen had his Q's animation made laughably slow when he got his visual update years ago when he could previously AA cancel with ease as well as canceling his Q animation. Lowering the skill cap of a champion who's already stigmatized for being "brain dead."

I don't find this inconsistency to be fair. Let me have the flashy, skillful mechanics other champions with better kits get to have, and let me cancel my animations more.

59 Comments

Fire Blaustoise37 votes

Don't know why, they're inconsistent anyway...

But i really think they should remove these animation cancel instead adding. Im a bit biaised cause i really hate lane against Riven & Renekton.

GigglesO43 votes

Riven mains gonna downvote because they like using a macro to animation cancel 3 q's 5 autos w and e and R all in .25 seconds.

Animation cancels should straight up be removed.

Rathar Dashing17 votes

Hey I play Riven and I'd love it if they took away animation cancelling, so long as they gave the champions if affects power somewhere else.

Z3Sleeper11 votes

Just remove the cancellable lockout entirely and just allow her to freely spam. Then balance her around that free spam.

Then animation cancelling is gone but she feels the same as when she could animation cancel.

If she's too strong with this then she gets nerfed. But this way players below Diamond can actually play her.

This isn't just dumbing the champion down either because, like everyone else, you still have to know what order to use skills in, what skills you should hold on to for reactions (stun, shield or Q & E for skillshot jukes) and when you should auto during your combos.

Rathar Dashing4 votes

Couldn't have put it better myself. You'd still have to Tiamat weave in your combo, so the number of buttons you have to press stays the same, you just have better freedom in the order you use them, or the exact time.

AirKingNeo4 votes

Just remove the cancellable lockout entirely and just allow her to freely spam. Then balance her around that free spam.

lol imagine how broken that would be

Z3Sleeper4 votes

Imagine how broken Riven would be if her animations were cancellable lul.

Oh wait... this changes nothing. It just makes everyone have boxbox levels of animation cancelling which is what Riven is balanced around (or at least should be balanced around, which is one of the main points: this would bring animation cancelling to the spotlight since everyone can now "do" it and therefore Riot can more accurately balance her if it indeed points out that animation cancelling on her is "broken").

Sewer Side3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Lluz7cn,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-16T05:49:45.148+0000)

Hey I play Riven and I'd love it if they took away animation cancelling, so long as they gave the champions if affects power somewhere else.

By making her mechanically less difficult so any monkey can play her?

Wow great idea

DrCyanide17 votes

If animation cancelling is the only thing separating a good Riven from a bad one, then she has bigger problems.

Sewer Side2 votes

{quoted}

If animation cancelling is the only thing separating a good Riven from a bad one, then she has bigger problems.

“If skill is the only difference between silver and diamond, we have bigger problems”

That’s your logic. Doesn’t make sense, now does it?

DrCyanide5 votes

No, my logic is "if there's only one way to express skill on a champion, it's a poorly designed champion." There's many skills that separate a Silver from a Diamond, but if mastering animation cancelling is the only skill that separate Riven players then she needs a rework immediately.

Sewer Side3 votes

{quoted}

No, my logic is "if there's only one way to express skill on a champion, it's a poorly designed champion." There's many skills that separate a Silver from a Diamond, but if mastering animation cancelling is the only skill that separate Riven players then she needs a rework immediately.

“A champion has to be accessible to everyone regardless if they played 1 or 100 games on them” sounds like your logic.

Homogenization, great idea. There is nothing inherently wrong with learning animation cancels. Even ADCs have that mechanic on their auto attacks. Every champion has a form of animation cancel, why is Riven suddenly a big problem because of it?

DrCyanide3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Lluz7cn,comment-id=00000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-17T02:33:09.381+0000)

“A champion has to be accessible to everyone regardless if they played 1 or 100 games on them” sounds like your logic.

You can't read then.

Homogenization, great idea. There is nothing inherently wrong with learning animation cancels. Even ADCs have that mechanic on their auto attacks. Every champion has a form of animation cancel, why is Riven suddenly a big problem because of it?

If it's all that makes up skill expression on her, then it means that it doesn't matter when you dash, when you stun, when you shield, when you ult, it only matters how good you are at animation cancelling. It means skill expression on her is "homogenized" into those two words, and what's in her actual kit doesn't matter nearly as much as being able to exploit a property of the overall game.

Can you imagine if another champion was described similarly? If what defined the skill expression of a new Marksman was "it's how well you can attack move" and nothing else? That new Marksman would have a problem, because what defines skill with them has nothing to do with them, but with the overall game. Same with Riven. If you want to claim that you can only express skill in her with a mechanic of the overall game, and proficiency with her kit doesn't matter, then she needs a better way for players to express skill.

Stand Alone Wolf1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Lluz7cn,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-16T05:49:45.148+0000)

Hey I play Riven and I'd love it if they took away animation cancelling, so long as they gave the champions if affects power somewhere else.

Well it's already unfair to champions that don't have that luxury, so why give them a different unfair advantage for taking away the unfair one they already had?

Rathar Dashing3 votes

Riven is currently balanced around being able to animation cancel, if they took it away from her she would be significantly weaker on higher-skilled players. Then, a slight buff or two (perhaps just shortening her W cast time, or some small number tweaks) would give her a fair advantage. I don't see how getting a buff after getting a nerf is an unfair advantage.

Rathar Dashing23 votes

I just think animation cancelling shouldn't be in the game, it feels like exploiting a bug, and when you have to do it to make a champion play to their greatest potential, it just feels awful. Animations should exist to limit champions, if you can cancel them then why even have them in the first place?

Glaricion8 votes

I remember freaking out when one of my siblings found out Annie was able to cast WQ at the same time.

No clue why anyone thinks being able to use multiple abilities in less than a quarter of a second is acceptable.

y0r1ck1 votes

Because dying when you're locked in a long animation feels bad.

Rathar Dashing3 votes

Then don't have long animations? Or just don't use them when you're getting jumped on.

Moody P4 votes

I don't think we get a say as to how long our animations are

Rathar Dashing1 votes

We don't have a say in any other aspect of champion balance, either. So why suggest anything?

Moody P2 votes

What are you talking about? "Don't use your spells" is a separate conversation from "why talk about balance?"

ModAcademy Kayn10 votes

Isn't a huge point of Juggernauts is that they are much slower, but damage heavier subclass of fighters? The counterplay in Juggernauts is those slower animations and delays. If Illaoi could skip out on her E's animation into a W, that's adding a lot of speed into a combo that's obviously going to be followed up by nearby/new tentacle slams. I'm well aware of Illaoi's E animation, I've played a decent bit of her.

The way I see it, it's like finding a way to make Darius Q's delay shorter. While less pronounced, the long animations punish whiffs, and give more time for people to respond to naturally more devastating attacks, and their follow ups. It's meant to be long, because it gives time for the opponents.

This is not the same for fighters like Riven and Renekton, and while I can't say so much as for Renekton, Riven is entirely built on Animation canceling. Her power budget is accommodated for her animation canceling, it's not just a random thing thats also there like Illaoi's. Animation Cancelling is not a Champion-Wide skill thing for every champion to dip into.

Moody P7 votes

no the point of juggernauts is to be worse in almost every way because you're slower, not tankier and more mobile fighters can buy your items and use them better than you

giving me animation cancels is just asking for a piece of their pie after they've taken half of mine

ModAcademy Kayn9 votes

no the point of juggernauts is to be worse in almost every way because you're slower, not tankier and more mobile fighters can buy your items and use them better than you

So, this, coupled with your description of Riven, doesn't really draw the best picture of your current bias here. They haven't taken any piece of your pie, Juggs get a lot of natural sustain and tankiness that most fighters don't. Garen get's natural resists and damage reduction, plenty have some form of spammable sustain, not to mention better base stats either.

You just sound like a spoiled Jugg main who sees something someone else has, and wants it despite it being against the entire idea of juggernauts: Slow, heavy damage dealers.

Moody P4 votes

they haven't taken any piece of your pie

meanwhile using juggernaut items not made for them better than their intended users

natural sustain

most fighters have healing and then also strong defenses that usually involve shielding or negating damage entirely. sustain is ass defense if it's your only defense.

garen

is D tier

base stats

negligible difference in the late game and basically identical in early mid.

slow heavy damage dealers

meanwhile the most competitively successful juggernauts don't subscribe to this "just be shit tier" design while the most faithful one (illaoi) has never been better than B tier even in her most favorable meta

spoiled main of one of the weakest classes in the game

typical boards

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

Complaining about a fighter using Sterak's better than a Jugg is like a Mage complaining that an AP assassin is using Luden's better than them. You're in the same fucking class-type, Fighters, no one is stealing anything. Black Cleaver isn't a Jugg only item, Sterak's isn't a Jugg only item. The only reason they're using it 'better' is because they're just stronger in general, not because they use Sterak's better.

Garen actually is boasting even a 50% winrate in Diamond, so not really man. Darius and Yorick got it worse.

Not really. Considering how most Juggs work off total AD, slightly higher base AD is a lot more significant than you think. Hell, minimal stat changes still affect winrates by 1-2%'s at times.

What competitively successful juggernauts are you even talking about? Names, man, don't make me go guessing so you can rip apart the point I have to make on guesswork.

weakest classes in the game

That doesn't mean you disregard the rules that keep towards the design of the Juggernaut class. You do not deserve animation canceling, so there's no point of dragging Fairness into this. You want it, you do not need it. Juggs, and Illaoi especially, are slow and delayed for a reason. If the meta doesn't fair your way at the moment, aight, doesn't mean you throw the class design out the window.

Moody P5 votes

Yes, divers have stolen Steraks since the initial Trinity Force combo became popular and then after it became bonus AD. You know why they use it better? Because almost every diver has additional defense in their kit. Like, real defense, and not shit sustain that gets invalidated after a mages second item. Because divers get to use the shield while already in the middle of the fight; juggernauts have it popped just trying to get into melee range.

Garen has a 48% win rate according to lolalytics and a 3% pick. 50% on a champion as easy as Garen still isn't impressive.

Base stat differences are completely negligible. At most any juggernaut has maybe 200 more base HP than the average diver. That's nothing.

Mundo, Trundle, Olaf, Aatrox post rework, for a start. Not slow at all, two of them build full tank. One builds half support.

Where is the competitive success for the "slow but powerful" juggernauts? They're almost always completely invisible in any serious ELO; pub smasher at best.

Uh,yeah you do. If the design isn't panning out (and it isn't, and Riot already knows this because they've already panned away from it with Urgot and Aatrox) then you change it. That's how it works.

IG Ziko3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Lluz7cn,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-16T17:43:57.949+0000)

Yes, divers have stolen Steraks since the initial Trinity Force combo became popular and then after it became bonus AD. You know why they use it better? Because almost every diver has additional defense in their kit. Like, real defense, and not shit sustain that gets invalidated after a mages second item. Because divers get to use the shield while already in the middle of the fight; juggernauts have it popped just trying to get into melee range.

Garen has a 48% win rate according to lolalytics and a 3% pick. 50% on a champion as easy as Garen still isn't impressive.

Base stat differences are completely negligible. At most any juggernaut has maybe 200 more base HP than the average diver. That's nothing.

Mundo, Trundle, Olaf, Aatrox post rework, for a start. Not slow at all, two of them build full tank. One builds half support.

Where is the competitive success for the "slow but powerful" juggernauts? They're almost always completely invisible in any serious ELO; pub smasher at best.

Uh,yeah you do. If the design isn't panning out (and it isn't, and Riot already knows this because they've already panned away from it with Urgot and Aatrox) then you change it. That's how it works.

You would expect an easy and linear champion like Garen not to exist anywhere above plat. Look at nasus who had 47% win rate totally and almost noone play him above gold (don't know about the buff it may make him a good jungler.

Actually Garen in the most failed design in league. The champion you only play to boost your ELO. Doesn't have anything satisfying or utility or ability to do real outplays.

The 3% play rate is so high for a champion that probably only 3 people around the world would enjoy playing.

JhinuinelyDunk1 votes

The problem is that juggernauts feel less tanky mid to late game because the game is very powercreeped and lack of magic resist makes it so that juggernauts dont feel tanky and stuff like Jax e Fiora w and Irelia w lets them survive longer than juggernauts and do more damage in a fight because resists and health are basically useless rn

SpaghettiVase9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Lluz7cn,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-01-16T11:09:49.217+0000)

You just sound like a spoiled Jugg main who sees something someone else has, and wants it despite it being against the entire idea of juggernauts: Slow, heavy damage dealers.

Congratulations you just described every moody p post

saltran4 votes

They removed the reset aa on Ashe Q but the one on Sivir W not for reasons.

Thefrostyviking4 votes

{quoted}

They removed the reset aa on Ashe Q but the one on Sivir W not for reasons.

Range is pretty much the answer, and the fact that at least early Ashe already has the ability to animation cancel autos with her W which makes also having the Q cancel too much as they wish to keep her power down.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Along with Ashe having more CC.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Lluz7cn,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-16T12:10:12.672+0000)

Along with Ashe having more CC.

Not really sure if thats the answer, Ashe´s damage already drops pretty hard in exchange for that very CC, after some point she just becomes unable to fight anyone who can quickly ramp up their damage quickly.

Futhermore her CC is tremendously weak pre 6 to the point where most dont even notice that it exists, but having a additional auto reset would make her combative ability in that very early game rise as each of those resets is highly valuable at that point.

Wild Geese4 votes

Riven would be insanely weak without animation cancelling. She's pretty much a melee minion without it. She is gated behind anim cancel.

Illaoi and Garen are Juggernauts and do great damage without it. Although maybe they could use -a little bit-, but at Riven level no.

saltran3 votes

But Riven could be buffed if she didn't had so many animation cancells.

Animation cancel shouldn't be the main strenght of a champion imo, and that's what OP is saying, that she's balanced around it.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Riven would be insanely weak without animation cancelling. She's pretty much a melee minion without it. She is gated behind anim cancel.

Then buff her if she really would be. That's not hard.

IG Ziko3 votes

Garen Q animation is slow? Maybe. But when he hit it on any non-tank he can 100-0 in the silence duration. QER outplayed dead. Just remove that garbage from the game already.

Edit: full tank Garen with only BC kills faster than AD Renekton. For Riven, annoying we can agree on that.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Okay yes Garen can kill with just BC but he is definitely not doing it anywhere near faster than an AD Renekton. You needa watch more RTO Renekton gameplay. Guy pulls off pentas in the span of about 4 seconds and instantaneously deletes a single target.

GinoSoldier2 votes

I'm also one of those who want animation cancels removed from the game. They're a large part of why champions, especially fighters, can do burst damage when they definitely shouldn't. Make the full animations play out, and buff where needed.

Vlada Cut2 votes

Camille. Oh boy learning her animation cancels is like reading a book. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Nevrankroaton1 votes

When you see a top elo camille player doing the animation cancel and you don't understand life anymore except you are scared, VERY scared [sg-janna]

Vlada Cut1 votes

{quoted}

When you see a top elo camille player doing the animation cancel and you don't understand life anymore except you are scared, VERY scared [sg-janna]

"Oh don't just walk away... Run."" - Camille

xZabaksx2 votes

Why does Viktor q auto has an animation cancel

Stand Alone Wolf2 votes

Well if everyone lost their ability to animation cancel "ac," then it's just a question of balance among all current champs. Seeing as not all champs are currently balanced, she'd just be like the others needing buffs/nerfs for alternative reasons not relating to making her equal to every other champ in terms of ac.

If however that's the foundation of her kit, and that's what she's built around, then I do believe that's just . . . hmm, I'd like to use a word other than "lazy" as I don't feel that fits right. It's like when Vladimir had spell vamp, and they removed it because he was really the only one who benefited from it. They took a key component from him, and in doing so he also received a complete makeover. Do I believe Riven needs a complete face-lift? No, but If her ac is all she has to offer, and the deciding factor for if she is even playable anymore because "that"s what made her good," then something's wrong.

Nevrankroaton2 votes

As a fighting game player, this really trigger me in some sort because cancelling animation is a fun way to learn to do combo. You know like doing an AA --> W reset + tiamat kind of combo with Jax.

I don't mean that cancel can't be unhealthy but I think it is kind of feel good thing that can be fun to do and not that bad to take. Renekton can do that since years and it never caused any issue, it was always one of the big point as a renekton main if you wanted to suceed in your trade.

I am certainly biased (I don't main Riven btw, but I do love to play renekton top) but I feel it is a good feeling. As long as the cancel aren't unhealthy or make things clunky (like a tiamat cancel isn't bad, but me doing 3 spell in 1,2 sec by cancelling is not good either), keep it.

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