The reason why I think Zed is an...unhealthy champion

Hibeki··83 votes·8,479 views

Hes got some good harass in lane and some good all in. That's cool.

The real problem, is the FAILSAFES.

No matter HOW badly zed fucks up, now matter how much he gets caught, he can just R or W for an instant escape unharmed.

If you don't have someone camping his shadow, (Which you shouldn't, thats 1 team member out of the fight) He will get out 100%. Unless you are a dumb zed and don't lead them between attacks and stand still, you can be in three places at once.

Where you are now, where you will be if you E, and where you will be when you R.

That is RIDICULOUS presence with an assassin. Leblanc had the same power, but in response they cut her silence so you can do something about it.

But zed still has EXTENDED untargetability. He got an extra .5 seconds of untargetability later after release, meaning he can dodge more damage, and follow you if you dash, flash, or whatever it may be. He can pursue, destroy, then blink away.

That's not good, Assassin's have an all in, and some form of safety, but the safety only lasts so long and there is a way to rid it.

For instance, Akali has her cloak, but it only lasts so long and can be negated by a pink ward.

Unless you CC Zed for a SIX SECONDS, which is TWICE as long as it takes for the mark to trigger, than he will get away.

The second thing, is that he can build nothing but tank shred, and still have more than enough damage to KO a squishy.

This is partially because tank shredding items are a bit too strong, but also because he has RIDICULOUS scaling and base damage.

BC, LW, and BOTRK for tank shredding, but i'm not a tank so that shouldn't do anything to me right? WRONG. He will scale off the slightest AD, and for some reason BOTRK actives APPLIES to his mark, dealing another half an active upon trigger, and his base damage is so sky high that without decent AD he still has massive damage to kill a 2k health carry.

This is why I think he is an unhealthy champion, no other champion in the game can build nothing but tank shred and KO a carry, then get out whenever he wants no matter how bad he fucks up.

165 Comments

Khristophoros44 votes

Yeah Zed being claimed as a "healthy" assassin is the biggest joke in the history of this game.

He forces you to use a long cooldown to survive his assassination attempt, which he has no problems engaging so the only counterplay lies in what you do when he engages. But then he just says nope and teleports away instantly if he feels like it.

Fuck this champion.

Blueharlequin14 votes

Or you know just hit him with cc when he goes in then blow him up instantly. Zed has to go deep into the team to hit the carry. If the carry is out of position and Zed finds them then that's the carries fault. Anticipate Zed going for your carries, stun him and then destroy him or make it so that he can't do enough damage to blow them up. If your team comp doesn't work for that then that's a blind pick/teambuilder issue. In ranked you can plan around Zed and let's not forget the almighty power of exhaust. He's useless once that happens. There are ways to get around him but if you don't capitalize on them then you haven't learned how to fight him.

Khristophoros25 votes

Or you know just hit him with cc when he goes in then blow him up instantly. Zed has to go deep into the team to hit the carry. If the carry is out of position and Zed finds them then that's the carries fault. Anticipate Zed going for your carries, stun him and then destroy him or make it so that he can't do enough damage to blow them up. If your team comp doesn't work for that then that's a blind pick/teambuilder issue. In ranked you can plan around Zed and let's not forget the almighty power of exhaust. He's useless once that happens. There are ways to get around him but if you don't capitalize on them then you haven't learned how to fight him.

He isn't 100% impossible to do anything too. Just much more difficult than most assassins because of his instant disengage.

Furthermore, his laning is god tier. He will always get his CS regardless of how much you pressure him. This is because of being manaless with two AoE abilities and his passive.

And on top of that he's a good split pusher which allows him to put on pressure aside form just his killing potential and allows him to set up more opportunities for himself to pick people off.

Yes there's stuff you can do against him but the reason he's a dominant pick is that he's overpowered since there's a lot LESS you can do about him compared to most champions.

Kobila20004 votes

Agreed, I hate how you can't ever stop him from cs-ing because he has so many ways to get those out-of-reach minions. And I thought we concluded that assassins being good at farming is utterly moronic but lolRiot.

thinking man14 votes

[deleted]

Khristophoros11 votes

Zed's probably the healthiest assassin since he has counterplay and has to commit if you get that counterplay but that's not really saying much since assassins are cancer in general

Well no he doesn't have to. He can make you pop some cooldown and just peace out. He could commit and attempt the kill anyway but that's his choice and he's already gotten you to blow a cooldown either way.

Bao Bao1 votes

[deleted]

Hibeki5 votes

60 second cooldown ult he doesn't need or a five minute flash

hmm, which is more worth it...

MegaCandyhawk13 votes

I feel that Zed's outplay mechanics (shadows) are very unique and well implemented but i think his ratios should be slightly nerfed.

Khristophoros12 votes

I feel that Zed's outplay mechanics (shadows) are very unique and well implemented but i think his ratios should be slightly nerfed.

There's not one mechanic that makes him OP or unhealthy. As with any unhealthy kit it's the whole package.

In lane he's one of the most difficult champions to shut down.

He split pushes like a beast.

He poses a huge threat and his stuff is tuned so you're guaranteed to expend more resources than him even though his engage is so reliable and safe.

Like I don't really have a problem with his mechanics. It's the overall result of tuning and the whole kit.

Kobila20005 votes

He takes the same spot alongside Lee and Thresh, where even after nerf after nerf and fanboys crying how they're so unviable now (you don't know "unviable" until your champion has 3% pick rate), they remain permafotm. Because they're broken at their core.

Pandemic Punch8 votes

He eats too many Doritos. That is why he is unhealthy.

Solidair37 votes

Zed suffers from the same problem as fizz, their all-on has no real cost. They'really going to get the kill, and they're going to get away, no exceptions

U4fyn2vZzW6 votes

Meanwhile Fizz can press E.

If Zed uses his W and or R to escape he misses out on a majority of his damage, meanwhile Fizz e on a 6 second cooldown lategame that's not even all of his burst.

Also let's not forget that if you have exhaust and or zhonya's you're immune to zed. Most AP mids now adays build zhonyas against any assassin regardless and always take heal (More peel from Zed), and everybotlane worth a damn is taking exhaust and heal.

Zed is the only assassin in this game that actually takes skill to assassinate someone with, want to complain about someone that assassinates someone with ease while always getting away unscathed and isn't as ult dependent? Fizz

Khristophoros23 votes

Meanwhile Fizz can press E.

If Zed uses his W and or R to escape he misses out on a majority of his damage, meanwhile Fizz e on a 6 second cooldown lategame that's not even all of his burst.

Also let's not forget that if you have exhaust and or zhonya's you're immune to zed. Most AP mids now adays build zhonyas against any assassin regardless and always take heal (More peel from Zed), and everybotlane worth a damn is taking exhaust and heal.

Zed is the only assassin in this game that actually takes skill to assassinate someone with, want to complain about someone that assassinates someone with ease while always getting away unscathed and isn't as ult dependent? Fizz

Two wrongs don't make a right.

aka I hate Fizz too.

Llanite12 votes

1/ Fizz cannot farm from range. If someone decides to camp, he toasts. 2/ Fizz E does not make him immune to ground CC (i.e. Veigar Azir ), Zed R ignore everything. 3/ Fizz E is a dash and subjects to slow, Zed teleport is a blink. 4/ Fizz needs his E to kill, Zed always has his W for failsafe. 5/ Fizz needs mana/blue, Zed doesn't.

Hibeki11 votes

Actually Fizz E does make him immune to all cc, because if they were able to hit him he wouldn't be untargetable.

It might as well be unhittable instead of untargetable

Llanite3 votes

Keyword is ground aoe.

His E is a dash with added effect. If he E through Veigar E, Azir R, Singed and other stuff, these effects will still trigger as he lands. A blink like Zed and Yi totally bypasses everything.

Hibeki6 votes

If I wasn't clear: He still isn't effected by the ones you listed.

Llanite5 votes

Please try it yourself before passing it as fact.

FluxBound2 votes

Actually, Yi is different from both of them. Zed's W works like flash, Fizz's E is invincibility, but Yi actually disappears from the map (like Shaco) and and dodge anything because he doesn't exist

No Fun Police1 votes

Fizz E is essential part of his burst - even more when Riot balanced his skills to move more damage from Q to E. Zed ultimate shadow is addition to his burst, he gets safe escape freely, without sacrificing any part of his burst. He doesn't even need to kill the target - can go in, deal damage and go out, then wait for Death Mark to trigger. Even Katarina doesn't have free escape - if she can't get a reset, she won't be able to get out (except flash).

U4fyn2vZzW6 votes

Oh give me a fucking break, Fizz's E is not essential to his burst infact it's more like an icing on the cake considering Fizz's main burst combo can just be to W - R - Q and maybe use his E to dodge any sort of spells by the person he's attacking.

Fizz also can build hourglass since he's an AP, making him even more safe. Fizz's E has an 8 SECOND COOLDOWN when maxed completely . . .

Most people have already agreed that Fizz is op even more op then Zed (Let's not forget his percentage health damage, free bonus magic damage on autos, and grevious wounds).

Let's be honest, would you rather play against a fed Fizz who is a global threat to your team or a fed Zed who in actuality is only going to be assassinating one member of your team and that's if you give that member no form of self-peel and he doesn't give himself any.

No Fun Police2 votes

When choosing between those two? Definitely against Fizz than Zed. Fizz can be stopped much easier than Zed due to:

  • No blinks. Fizz Q and E are dashes and as such can be stopped by well timed CC, Veigar Event Horizon, Azir wall (Fizz can't get over it).
  • Safety based on delaying and waiting, not by blinking out. When he uses E/Zhonya, he'll become vulnerable again as soon as trollpole/Zhonya ends, therefore giving time to delete him.
  • No ranged abilities outside long CD ultimate. Fizz has to all-in, he has no ranged poke.
  • Much slower burst. Fizz can't get in, burst, get out and wait until you die, he needs to land 2-3 AAs to secure a kill. Zed can execute his entire combo in less than 1 second, blinking twice in this time.
  • Vulnerable to anti-divers. As above, Zed is one of safest divers and anti-turtle champions, Fizz under tower will be deleted with any kind of CC.
  • No sustain on Fizz side. Zed almost always has BoRK, giving him sustain, also he has energy. Fizz is mana-constrained and usually has no lifesteal/spellvamp, delaying him and making him waste mana (poke hard from range) will end with harmless Fizz.
  • Escape range. Fizz can jump up to 800 range in about 0.5 second, which allow you to follow him and burst even if he tries to get in-burst-get out immediately. Zed can go (by backing to ult shadow and then using W to increase gap) 1175 units in about 0.1 second.
  • Waveclear and turtling is extremely efficient against Fizz. He'll get low on mana when he tries to push and need to handle wave after wave. Half HP Zed dealing with wave after wave will soon get to full health and energy, then dive and kill you.

TBH I don't play Fizz a lot, he's a champion which can be countered by strategy and playstyle, not only by mechanics, items and summoners (as with Zed/Katarina). Zed is extremely efficient in any situation, Fizz can be outplayed and made useless quite easily.

U4fyn2vZzW4 votes

How many times do i have to say this? If a Zed gets fed then only one person on your team is at threat (Normally your ADC or APC) and they should have some form of peel (Exhaust, CC), or self-peel (Zhonyas) to completely negate his assassination attempt that will always take 3 seconds to pull off.

Fizz on the other hand . If he gets fed your entire team is at threat because unlike Zed Fizz isn't as relient on his ult to burn down squishies.

Every scenario you mentioned requires Zed's ultimate, so make him burn it on a fail assassination attempt and he's left with nothing for teamfights besides lackluster poke.

Also, Fizz E can be reduced to 6 seconds at late-game. Every 6 seconds he can become untargetable dodging any form of CC or anything you would use to instagib him and returning 270 (+ 75% AP) magic damage in an AoE.

WutsKraken5 votes

You can complain about him and his safety, but the fact of the matter is that he's a REAL assassin.

See, when you think of an assassin, you think of someone who gets in, kills ONE target, then gets out.

This is exactly what Zed is, and arguably LeBlanc although I'm not going to debate that. If he screws up, maybe he gets out, but he wont get that kill unless he's insanely ahead. You also don't have to CC him for 6 seconds to kill him. You CC him once, burst him, and thats it, doesn't matter if he's got an escape

Others are go in, blow up a bunch of people and die (Talon)

Get a kill and get resets for more kills (Akali, Kha'zix, and Katarina)

Get in, stay in, troll people, and probably live (Fizz)

Honestly, I feel that while Zed's manaless harass and farm might be something to look at, his ult is exactly what a real assassination should be

PS: You can argue about "blowing flash to escape an insta-kill ult" for a lot of people with high burst ults.

Mecha MaIphite5 votes

I learned Zed because I thought he was more mechanics-dependant, which was an area in which I needed improvement.

Then I realized that it was already easy enough to do well with him from the start, and when I started getting used to his kit, it was like someone just switched the game's difficulty to EZmode or something.

I won't mind if Zed gets a few nerfs, so then it actually gives you a sense of accomplishment when you do good with him.

2pudge1cup5 votes

CertainlyT

Did anyone really expect anything different? Really?

All of his designs have loads of fail safes (sans Darius). For "high skill cap" the amount of extra numbers and mechanics he shoves in the kits mitigates any difficulty to use them.

Hibeki1 votes

Darius was nerfed appropriately though, the biggest nerf being his ult isn't permanently reset anymore and has a higher cooldown than standard top laners

Darius seems like a balanced design to me, he has no gapclosers or escape and only has a grab, if he misses grab feel free to kite him

Yoella1 votes

His cooldown on his ulti is still lower than most other champions and it's reset for 40 SECONDS on kill... might as well be permanently with how much true damage it does. And his grab is almost as long as Blitz's and pulls everything, not just the first it hits.

Hibeki2 votes

Uhh if darius ultra reset for 40 seconds I wouldn't be complaining...

His grab is 60% of blitz range, dont exaggerate

skrithurz3 votes

Zed is the healthiest assassin there is, period. He isn't just point and press an ability and get a free kill. He takes more skill entirely than all of the following champions Akali , Fizz , Katarina , Talon. He can get easily kited to death or CC'ed and if he uses his abilities as gap closers he has no escape and gets blown up. Edit But I entirely agree on the tank shredding, APen items are really too strong and are the only reason I hate playing tanks because you're not tanky with those items floating around.

Khristophoros19 votes

Zed is the healthiest assassin there is, period. He isn't just point and press an ability and get a free kill. He takes more skill entirely than all of the following champions Akali , Fizz , Katarina , Talon. He can get easily kited to death or CC'ed and if he uses his abilities as gap closers he has no escape and gets blown up.

Those assassins are unhealthy in different ways. They represent the old philosophy on assassins which was that they would be vulnerable in lane so they could be shut down. They had strategic counterplay.

The philosphy behind Zed is that he's not vulnerable in lane and he has a lot of fallback in his split pushing, but you can ruin his assassination attempts so you don't have to rely on strategic shutdown.

However, Zed's design fails because he is so incredibly safe in everything he does, and even when you stop him from killing somebody you've had to invest more resources (summoners, active items) than he had to invest. Because his engage is so reliable and safe he forces these exchanges to happen where he is guaranteed to invest less.

Overall you do not have any good strategic options against Zed. This is the most insidious kind of unhealthy design because so many players are fooled into thinking it's healthy, because they think they have good options against him. But in fact he brings huge strategic advantages to his team.

skrithurz3 votes

Zed is the healthiest assassin there is, period. He isn't just point and press an ability and get a free kill. He takes more skill entirely than all of the following champions Akali , Fizz , Katarina , Talon. He can get easily kited to death or CC'ed and if he uses his abilities as gap closers he has no escape and gets blown up.

Those assassins are unhealthy in different ways. They represent the old philosophy on assassins which was that they would be vulnerable in lane so they could be shut down. They had strategic counterplay.

The philosphy behind Zed is that he's not vulnerable in lane and he has a lot of fallback in his split pushing, but you can ruin his assassination attempts so you don't have to rely on strategic shutdown.

However, Zed's design fails because he is so incredibly safe in everything he does, and even when you stop him from killing somebody you've had to invest more resources (summoners, active items) than he had to invest. Because his engage is so reliable and safe he forces these exchanges to happen where he is guaranteed to invest less.

Overall you do not have any good strategic options against Zed. This is the most insidious kind of unhealthy design because so many players are fooled into thinking it's healthy, because they think they have good options against him. But in fact he brings huge strategic advantages to his team.

If Zed gets fed he can delete squishies quite easily, yes. But in lane I feel that a lot of champions trash Zed, yes I main Zed, so he relies on farm, which his passive really helps, but if by then the enemy laner has a Zhonya's or anything similiar then you're worthless and have little chance of getting fed.

Same for ADCs, if you get fed and they build Mercrucial Scimitar and/or have a support who is ready to protect them from you/react fast enough to CC you then you're not worth anything but a split push. Zed's laning isn't the best in my opinion considering many Zed's use their W and Q combo to harass which leaves him VERY vulnerable to ganks early on which completely shut him down.

Zed is much easier to focus then champions like Akali, Fizz, and less so Talon. Akali with Zhonya's is quite hard to focus, Fizz is Fizz and most likely has Zhonya's, and Talon has his ult which is easily countered with a pink so disregard him. My point is that i'd much rather deal with a fed Zed than a fed Fizz, Akali, or Talon any day because building against Zed only consists of one item. item 3157 Give's both armor which already is awesome against Zed but the active just wrecks him entirely.

Hibeki11 votes

QSS is not viable counterplay.

You have to go out of your way to build an EXTREMELY expensive item which is NOT EFFICIENT AT ALL for the item slot.

You have SIX SECONDS after casting ult to get away, there is not a single bot lane in the game with that much CC.

Ganks in mid lane are VERY easy to avoid. Considering most Zed's don't CS with autos, they time their combos and harass to get cs at the same time, so unless zed is pushed (Which he shouldn't, because the only way to stop someone from roaming is to push against them) then hes going to hang right next to the hill/torches that seperate the alleys from the river. Its a smooth walk from right there to the tower.

I can deal with a Fed talon, a fed akali.

Fizz is a different story. You CAN cc him once he used his only untargetability.

Zed has instant safety, fizz doesn't have NEARLY as much safety in the press of an ability as he does.

Building Zhonyas can only stop the ult PROC, but considering you have two shadows lasting 6 seconds, and that you don't always rely on the ult PROC to kill someone, he can just sit and wait for it to expire.

Zhonyas has armor and good stats yes, but Zed will STILL absolutely WRECK someone if that is their first armor item.

FiniteApple3 votes

EXTREMELY expensive item which is NOT EFFICIENT AT ALL for the item slot.

Are you saying that item 3157 is "not efficient at all"? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Ok. It's totally not one of the most useful items in game. Ok. And if you haven't picked a mid laner with any mobility, you lost already.(This applies with everyone)

U4fyn2vZzW2 votes

This is what I'm trying to say.

Zhonya's is Zed's main counter because his main source of burst damage and in reality his only way to kill anyone is through his ult which can be COMPLETELY NEGATED by that one item and even through a good exhaust cast.

Fizz on the other hand? He has his Q, percentage health damage, grevious wounds, W, and to add icing on the already calorie-infested cake he has his ulti.

Zhonya's isn't going to be able to negate all fo that. But yeah you bring up a good point whenever I'm against a fed Zed we normally are able to make comebacks because Zed's main assassinations are only on one target while Akali's and Fizz's are on the entire team.

Alëk6 votes

Zed is the healthiest assassin there is, period. He isn't just point and press an ability and get a free kill. He takes more skill entirely than all of the following champions Akali , Fizz , Katarina , Talon. He can get easily kited to death or CC'ed and if he uses his abilities as gap closers he has no escape and gets blown up.

Those assassins are unhealthy in different ways. They represent the old philosophy on assassins which was that they would be vulnerable in lane so they could be shut down. They had strategic counterplay.

The philosphy behind Zed is that he's not vulnerable in lane and he has a lot of fallback in his split pushing, but you can ruin his assassination attempts so you don't have to rely on strategic shutdown.

However, Zed's design fails because he is so incredibly safe in everything he does, and even when you stop him from killing somebody you've had to invest more resources (summoners, active items) than he had to invest. Because his engage is so reliable and safe he forces these exchanges to happen where he is guaranteed to invest less.

Overall you do not have any good strategic options against Zed. This is the most insidious kind of unhealthy design because so many players are fooled into thinking it's healthy, because they think they have good options against him. But in fact he brings huge strategic advantages to his team.

here's the problem. Zed is safe in LANE. and only in lane. In teamfights it takes one hard cc to negate his damage. He can't run in and attack adc's. he has to ult. Now name the amount of champions in a team that have knockups, stuns, knockbacks, roots etc.? Also you say that it takes like 6 CC's? He's so squishy that if you stun him once you can pretty much instagib him immediately. He takes very good positioning and timing.

Pretty much this. A good Zed with a lot of experience destroys. New Zeds are completely terrible in general. The can't assassinate to save their lives and generally just feed. Zed has one of the highest skill caps and skill floors in the game. To understand him takes quite a bit of practice. I understand you think if he fails he can just press a button and escape. But this is a teamfight. I think you are greatly overestimating zed's ability to escape. Even a 2 second hard cc on zed is enough to instagib him.

Honestly, the only thing I agree with is itemization. Right now Arm Pen is really strong and so his ability to instagib anyone is good. If Zed fails his ultimate though he has no real use in teamfights except for lack luster poke.

Curling Veigar2 votes

"No other champion can build tank shred and KO a carry"

Veigar

Drogmyre6 votes

"No other champion can build tank shred and KO a carry"

Veigar

Except that Veigar pays for it with absolute garbage tier mobility. Zed does not.

Hibeki5 votes

That and since when have you seen a veigar build Liandry's, Void Staff, and Sorc Shoes as his first three items.

Starrow2 votes

lol zed is totally fine.

this is coming from a mid laner who does not own nor play zed, but instead against him.

vscAloha1 votes

And yet you probably play some other high-mobility champions agaisnt him :^L

This game is much easier if your champion has an innate dash in addition to flash.

Starrow3 votes

And yet you probably play some other high-mobility champions agaisnt him :^L

This game is much easier if your champion has an innate dash in addition to flash.

no i play orianna and tf. no built in flash.

U4fyn2vZzW3 votes

Im honestly sorry. but if you play Orianna you should literally have ZERO problems with Zed considering the amount of sheer utility she gets. Free MR/Armor, Shield, Long-Ranged Poke, etc. TF I can understand he struggles against literally every mid laner but Orianna is currently one of the oppressive AP mids in the game (Next to Syndra).

Again, as Orianna you shoudln't have any problems with Zed.

Jamatrix6662 votes

No matter HOW badly zed fucks up, now matter how much he gets caught, he can just R or W for an instant escape unharmed.

This is why Zed is superior to Talon in every situation now that Talon lost his silence. He needs something to create a small window of safety since Talon has no reliable escape (his ult should not be a defensive ult). I wish Rito could understand this...

Howldoom1 votes

I still find Talon to be pretty good. The thing with Zed is that while he has huge damage potential, his kit is mechanically difficult; his Q and E are skillshots/AOEs that can miss, for example. Talon, on the other hand, is relatively easy to dump on enemies with. His one skillshot has a wide hitbox, and his ult AoE can be closed back up on command, making it more likely to hit.

And I see little issue with using his ult defensively if needed, though I like using it more like Shaco's invisibility (pop ult, go into the lane, E on the enemy champion, watch the damage fly).

Again - the "uselessness" of Talon with his lack of silence is only relevant if the enemies he targets are ALWAYS in possession of an escape mecahnism EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN TIME he moves in to attack. Take Flash, for example - it can have a 210-300sec CD (assuming points in the Utility tree for decreased Summoner Spell cooldown AND the Distortion boot enchant). Talon's E has an 18-10sec CD (down to 6 with max CDR). Unless his opponents reserve every form of escape they have for Talon (and suffer the potential CC of the other 1-4 members of his team), then there are ample opportunities for Talon to jump on and wreck face, in regards to Flash's availability.

TL,DR: Both Talon and Zed are good in their own way. Zed may do higher damage in the late game, but is harder to get the hang of and a bit more prone to missing with his abilities than Talon. Both can wreck lane or be wrecked depending on their own performance and that of their opposing/allied teams. Both are also fairly squishy. :P

Alpharite2 votes

Talon is actually better than Zed at numerous things. Faster burst, MUCH higher aoe damage. His winrate reflects this.

Leblancs Boob2 votes

If you built a QSS to counter Zed I would probably laugh at you... I hope the MR helps you survive an AD assassin thats at point blank range of you.

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