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Taric vs. Thresh (Mana costs)

Dominick Destine··1 votes·1,088 views

Taric Mana 255 (+56)
Mana regen. 4.1 (+0.4)
(NOTE the abysmal mana regen and mana regen per level)

Imbue
RANGE: 750 COST: 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 mana

Shatter COST: 50 mana COOLDOWN: 10

Dazzle
RANGE: 625 COST: 75 mana COOLDOWN: 18 / 17 / 16 / 15 / 14

Radiance
RANGE: 200 COST: 100 mana COOLDOWN: 75

Thresh Mana 200 (+44)
Mana regen. 5 (+0.7) (NOTE The middle of the road base mana regen and mana regen per level)

Death Sentence
RANGE: 1100 COST: **80 mana ** COOLDOWN: 20 / 18 / 16 / 14 / 12

Dark Passage RANGE: 950 COST: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 mana COOLDOWN: 22 / 20.5 / 19 / 17.5 / 16

Flay
RANGE: 400 (800 total) COST: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 mana

The Box RANGE: 450 COST: 100 mana COOLDOWN: 150 / 140 / 130

TLDR; Taric's mana costs are enormous, especially for a melee champion. Add to this, this, his base mana regen and mana regen per level are @#$*&ing abysmal, these are all mainstays from his old passive that used to give him free mana per hit... compare this to Thresh; one of the top 3 support champions in the game that has RANGED auto attack, much higher base damage (THRESH REGULAR AUTO ATTACK WITH HIS PASSIVE(Mana free to trigger)) IS HIGHER THAN TARIC'S PASSIVE MODIFIED BASE AUTO ATTACK DAMAGE(Not mana free to trigger), NICE BALANCE RIOT) and above all else Thresh's mana costs are actually reasonable.

Put these together and Thresh has an enormous advantage over Taric.

PROPOSED SOLUTION: Combine his old passive with his current passive Taric 's old passive give him mana per hit... it sucked. Then they changed it to do damage based on his mana, which sucked... now they changed it to reduce his cooldowns and give him a very small amount of damage after using a skill (it gives 60 magic damage if you have 300 armor... if you all 4 skills, it does 240 pre-mitigated magic damage in FOUR AUTOATTACKS); Give these modified magic attacks the ability to restore his mana, which is doubled against champions

Example: He uses dazzle on the opposing champion while having 70 armor at level 5, this means he has 14 bonus magic damage from his passive, let's say the average adc Jinx and the total magic damage is 10, which refunds 20 and makes his absurd costs a bit more manageable.

This would balance his insanely high mana costs to a reasonable level. The balance of his off to say the least. Thoughts?

4 Comments

Dominick Destine1 votes

I would like an honest answer from a red regarding this strong discrepancy between these two champions.

EMOFRATPARTY1 votes

The tankiness of Taric is kind of the counterplay regarding the mana costs. I main Taric as support, and I'll be the first to admit that managing his mana pool is no easy task. With a build order of Sightstone > Boots of Speed > Sapphire Crystal > Cloth Armor > Glacial Shroud > Frozen Heart, you're likely going to have to be careful with your abilities for the first half or so of the game.

But again, the tankiness allows Taric to zone out opposing ADCs, and unless you're facing a Blitzcrank it's relatively easy to maintain some control over the lane. You really have to balance aggression with safety early on, but late game Taric is a nigh-unstoppable force.

I'm sure that Riot has considered the mana costs in regards to these two Champions, but it's still interesting to look at nonetheless.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

I wouldn't mind Taric having his mana issues somewhat remedied (at least for the heal), but you have to keep in mind that they are very different champions. Taric's greatest strength, I believe is in two qualities: his jack-of-all-trade nature and his late-game potential.

Taric is essentially a jack-of-all-trades support who passively provides defense and offense to his allies, is capable of healing both himself and his ally in the same spell cast, has a CC for picking and peeling, and whose passive lets him reduce the CD of all his spells. You can easily change your skill order and playstyle depending on how the lane is going without suffering too much (compared to, say, Leona who has trouble when you can't engage on your enemy because you're low on health or behind in lane).

Taric is also a very strong late game fighter. He might not provide as much CC or protection as other supports, but he's one of the few who are actually capable of dueling bruisers, tanks, and squishies in the late game with primarily support items while also providing his team with substantial aura bonuses. I find that a good final build is item 3117 item 2045 item 3401 item 3025 item 3190 item 3143, which provides a lot of utility (slows, shields, MR aura, wards, mana and CDR) and tankiness. (Most supports exist solely for utility and as a damage soak in the late game, but very few of them can actually duel solo laners or junglers with ease).

Also, I would recommend being more careful about how you word your posts. The ALLCAPS and the choice of language makes it appear similar to an angry rant, which isn't the best way to begin a discussion.

MasticatingGrill1 votes

Taric Mana 255 (+56)
Mana regen. 4.1 (+0.4)
(NOTE the abysmal mana regen and mana regen per level)

Imbue
RANGE: 750 COST: 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 mana

Shatter COST: 50 mana COOLDOWN: 10

Dazzle
RANGE: 625 COST: 75 mana COOLDOWN: 18 / 17 / 16 / 15 / 14

Radiance
RANGE: 200 COST: 100 mana COOLDOWN: 75

Thresh Mana 200 (+44)
Mana regen. 5 (+0.7) (NOTE The middle of the road base mana regen and mana regen per level)

Death Sentence
RANGE: 1100 COST: **80 mana ** COOLDOWN: 20 / 18 / 16 / 14 / 12

Dark Passage RANGE: 950 COST: 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 mana COOLDOWN: 22 / 20.5 / 19 / 17.5 / 16

Flay
RANGE: 400 (800 total) COST: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 mana

The Box RANGE: 450 COST: 100 mana COOLDOWN: 150 / 140 / 130

TLDR; Taric's mana costs are enormous, especially for a melee champion. Add to this, this, his base mana regen and mana regen per level are @#$*&ing abysmal, these are all mainstays from his old passive that used to give him free mana per hit... compare this to Thresh; one of the top 3 support champions in the game that has RANGED auto attack, much higher base damage (THRESH REGULAR AUTO ATTACK WITH HIS PASSIVE(Mana free to trigger)) IS HIGHER THAN TARIC'S PASSIVE MODIFIED BASE AUTO ATTACK DAMAGE(Not mana free to trigger), NICE BALANCE RIOT) and above all else Thresh's mana costs are actually reasonable.

Put these together and Thresh has an enormous advantage over Taric.

PROPOSED SOLUTION: Combine his old passive with his current passive Taric 's old passive give him mana per hit... it sucked. Then they changed it to do damage based on his mana, which sucked... now they changed it to reduce his cooldowns and give him a very small amount of damage after using a skill (it gives 60 magic damage if you have 300 armor... if you all 4 skills, it does 240 pre-mitigated magic damage in FOUR AUTOATTACKS); Give these modified magic attacks the ability to restore his mana, which is doubled against champions

Example: He uses dazzle on the opposing champion while having 70 armor at level 5, this means he has 14 bonus magic damage from his passive, let's say the average adc Jinx and the total magic damage is 10, which refunds 20 and makes his absurd costs a bit more manageable.

This would balance his insanely high mana costs to a reasonable level. The balance of his off to say the least. Thoughts?

Feels like Leona is very much overshadowing Taric lately, bringing Thresh into this is completely inappropriate. Taric and Thresh are miles apart in their laning AND in their team fight utilities. Just NO.

Leona's favorite thing is this Amumu-style duct-tape toss that pulls her to victim from a safe hiding place. Then she bonks them too. Taric cannot port in like that, when his flash is down he telegraphs each dive.

So comparing those two, I feel Taric has too high mana cost and has pretty weak CC for a 2014 support. His damage buff is a little crappy too. The armor buff is highly situational, but hey look at Galio being MR pref.

Taric is a low DPS, semi tanky shrine-buff carrier with decent sustain and moderate shred but poor engage and CC.

Rito patches and "evolving play" pretty much have taken him out of the picture outside ARAM and maybe Dominion.

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