If You Want People to Jungle, it Needs to be Made Fun and Satisfying

Woodakoodashooda·Jan 6, 2020·45 votes·16,186 views

Riot, you've put in a lot of effort turning Support into an entertaining, fulfilling, and satisfying role for the community. I question your choice in changing up support items, but, other than that, you've done wonders to make it a quality role for players to enjoy.

But you have done the exact opposite for the jungle. Making it into a role that is so thoroughly despised that players, more often than not, are filled Jungle after a mere two minutes in queue.

Almost no one wants the job anymore and that's how I perceive jungle, a job. It's terrible, the minutes are long and stressful, and everyone at work thinks themselves your boss as they constantly harass you to perform in accordance with their impossible expectations.

And while a player can easily ignore all the bullshit of their allies, all the nerfs directed at the role cannot go ignored and have made a demanding role into an inconsiderable one. That's right, Riot, it is my opinion that you changed the jungle with no regard or consideration for your players. Just change for the sake of change just to see what would happen and this is the result.

You removed any and all fun out of the jungle role to the point that 90% or more of all players would rather not play the role if it can be avoided. Players filled jungle will likely either beg for a trade in lobby or just outright dodge even if it means waiting the better part of an hour to try again.

As I am writing this, I am strongly considering playing support once every three non promo matches just so I am NEVER filled jungle again.

You did this, Riot. You might want to consider making it right.

123 Comments

IllabetheJan 6, 202013 votes

Explain WTF you mean by

Riot, you've put in a lot of effort turning Support into an entertaining, fulfilling, and satisfying role for the community.

It's not fun lmfao. Half the time you are outright shut down/have to play passive/no income/pulled along by the fate/skill of the REST of your team.

If you feel that everyone's harassing you, you probably aren't doing your "job" as often as you should. Developing that opinion takes some history of afk farming.

Also, if you think Jungle is a job, you've obviously never been a successful laner. 80% of your jungle is spent in non-encounters, easy farming, with reliable chunks of gold from a single target. Lanes you have to secure 6-8 minions just to get the same gold, and you have to last hit all of them while under duress of poke. Whut? Jungle a job? You're obviously playing the wrong role/game.

RekSai CoffeeCoJan 6, 20206 votes

{quoted}

Explain WTF you mean by

It's not fun lmfao. Half the time you are outright shut down/have to play passive/no income/pulled along by the fate/skill of the REST of your team.

If you feel that everyone's harassing you, you probably aren't doing your "job" as often as you should. Developing that opinion takes some history of afk farming.

Also, if you think Jungle is a job, you've obviously never been a successful laner. 80% of your jungle is spent in non-encounters, easy farming, with reliable chunks of gold from a single target. Lanes you have to secure 6-8 minions just to get the same gold, and you have to last hit all of them while under duress of poke. Whut? Jungle a job? You're obviously playing the wrong role/game.

So if you don't last hit the minions in lane you don't get experience right?

IllabetheJan 6, 20204 votes

Experience = / = itemization.

Poor adc = instant useless support. Poor jungler = Jungler still has gold, can catch up on levels, and can still contribute to the game.

It takes far more skill to play a lane (even as support) than to jungle.

(Jungle's only challenge is macro play versus an aggressive opponent jungler who coordinates with a team; everything else is basics)

Emperor TalquinJan 6, 202014 votes

Catching up from jungle was removed.

IllabetheJan 6, 20203 votes

Catching up in jungle =kill prime camps, then go run through a lane and gain XP/kill for supplement.

I've had 0 problems Season 10 jungling.

EedatJan 6, 20206 votes

My dude we can literally view your match history

https://na.op.gg/summoner/champions/userName=Illabethe

You have two games as jungle this season lol

IllabetheJan 7, 20201 votes

I think you need to look at items/summoner's purchased, not champions.

If you're referring to Season 9, this account alone has over 600 Jungle games.

The postseason I'm just giving new skins fanservice.

I did do a Nidalee game, and 3 Morgana Jungle games though. 3 of those 4 I stomped.

I've also played some 150 or so TFT games, and 50+ PBE games, 45 more games on my other Gold account, 34 games on my D II account, and 57 games on my Plat I account.

EedatJan 7, 20203 votes

I've had 0 problems Season 10 jungling.

If you're referring to Season 9, this account alone has over 600 Jungle games.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

I did do a Nidalee game, and 3 Morgana Jungle games though

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

IllabetheJan 7, 20201 votes

I do tend to play support when the smurfs I find to play with are playing adcs <3

But yeah..... I'll probably be back in jungle when the Season starts. I know I will at D IV or whatever I get.

EedatJan 7, 20204 votes

Oh I remember you. The guy who plays hundreds of games in silver every season but claims to have a D2 main that you cant provide any proof of existing and expect people to believe it even though it would take you literally 10 seconds to prove. Well I feel the need to tell you that cant get D4. The highest you can get placed is P1. You would certainly know that if you were high diamond

KlydeFrogJan 6, 20209 votes

And yet your experience gain is almost the same as bot lane just saying, all I do is pick autofill and guess what role I get the most......jungler you got it.

IllabetheJan 6, 20202 votes

I still hit 6 right after mid and about 1 1/5 min before bot.

Worst JG WinsJan 6, 202016 votes

{quoted}

I still hit 6 right after mid and about 1 1/5 min before bot.

Damn that's impressive considering you OP.GG shows you're a support Raka Main and haven't played JG in months

IllabetheJan 6, 20202 votes

Damn that's impressive since I've only played Soraka for about the last month and a half out of 7 years, and rarely played her before.... on a smurf... Next you'll tell me I can't be a jungler since I play TFT.

It's called fanboying a skin...

I main Nidalee Morgana Zyra Evelynn Jungle. I used to play Udyr Shyvana Khazix Kindred Kayn Amumu

Worst JG WinsJan 6, 202017 votes

{quoted}

Damn that's impressive since I've only played Soraka for about the last month and a half out of 7 years,

Cool story bro. You aren't playing JG right now. How on earth can you "still hit 6 right after mid" when you aren't even playing the role. You lied and got caught better luck next time.

Also, you USED to play Morg in the JG i can tell by your CS numbers on OP.GG. But when you play her currently you're playing her as a support. Could the reason for that be because you know JG is shit role?

BigFBearJan 7, 20204 votes

BUUUUUUURN!!

Hi im 12Jan 7, 20203 votes

you forgot about his 60 challenger accounts with 90% wr my guy

Magnesium14Jan 6, 20202 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0sL9FKEj,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2020-01-06T19:55:10.877+0000)

Damn that's impressive considering you OP.GG shows you're a support Raka Main and haven't played JG in months

You know your argument's invalid when you have to OP.GG someone.

BONUS DMG 2NOOBSJan 6, 202010 votes

{quoted}

You know your argument's invalid when you have to OP.GG someone.

Or maybe people just lie, and you have to check to verify?

Magnesium14Jan 6, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=BONUS DMG 2NOOBS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0sL9FKEj,comment-id=0001000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2020-01-06T22:02:18.889+0000)

Or maybe people just lie, and you have to check to verify?

or maybe its a pretty common fact that almost no one on these boards uses their real account and literally the only OP.GG on these boards are to distract from the discussion and to engage in an insult battle which is more winnable then trying to defend something false.

IAintDariusJan 7, 20203 votes

Ah yes the discussion of lying about your league experience and deflecting with "this is my smurf" when getting called out. My favorite.

Hi im 12Jan 7, 20201 votes

I mean I believe most people are posting from smurfs at this point considering the rate at which internet jannies ban people here, not that it would ever happen to a good boy such as myself :)

KlydeFrogJan 6, 202019 votes

I would rather play supp any day of the week over jungler

Emperor TalquinJan 6, 20203 votes

Chainman3Jan 6, 20202 votes

It's not fun lmfao. Half the time you are outright shut down/have to play passive/no income/pulled along by the fate/skill of the REST of your team.

Like wtf dude who would expect to have to support when playing SUPPORT

IllabetheJan 7, 20201 votes

Support doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't be able to carry.

It doesn't mean that support should have a lower income.

It doesn't mean that you should be punished for having a bad bot lane carry.

Chainman3Jan 7, 20202 votes

Support doesn't mean you can't/shouldn't be able to carry.

Sure, it also doesnt mean "i do the dmg" or "i carry the game" Since you know thats the role of an ad CARRY or an ap CARRY. When you're playing a team builder game, you build your units to complement each other to make a successful team. You dont take a healer and complain that your healer doesnt do enough dmg, you say my healer is there to keep my dps alive. My supports are there to buff my dmg dealers and protect them. My dmg dealer is there to kill the enemy and my tanks are there to soak dmg. You dont pick your support then complain that they arent doing your dmg dealers role.

It doesn't mean that support should have a lower income.

Income is given by what happens in game. As it is supports are given 1.3k income for free in upgrades of their support item and another 1k from quests. So anywhere less than 2.3k gold you can make the complaint as long as you're being proactive and doing well. Not sitting behind your team all game and wondering why you're not getting any gold.

It doesn't mean that you should be punished for having a bad bot lane carry.

thats your subjective outlook on your teammate. He may think the same thing about you. Does that you're bad? Does that mean he's being punished? Situations happen people play bad and fall behind. This statement is the same as saying "i shouldnt be punished for having the worse jungler, or having the worse x role teammate". Well if someone on your team isnt playing up to speed then the whole team is punished thats how the game goes. When you're playing an mmo and you're in a party and someone afks you're punished for it, otherwise there would be no benefit to playing well. If you dont want to be punished for someone on your team playing bad then you dont want to be rewarded for someone on your team playing good. So i dont get your argument here.

IllabetheJan 7, 20201 votes

[deleted]

Chainman3Jan 8, 20202 votes

You're just proving you're a bad support.

How about you attack the argument not the person when trying to debate your point.

They are not just heal bots when played correctly.

When did i ever say this???

They are not given 1.3k free in gold. They are given about 450g free. Stop inflating gold assumptions.

So ill prove this with https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Shard_of_True_Ice "Gold Value 45 ability power = Gold 978.75 100 health = Gold 266.67 100% base mana regeneration = Gold 500 Total Gold Value = Gold 1745.42" Now can you prove your statement?

And wtf is this about separating "Quests vs Upgrades?" Atm they are one and the SAME. And no. It's no way near 2.3k G.

Since it seems you dont understand how the support item works ill explain it. They each have quests, those quests grant the player up to 500g on the first quest and 500g on the second quest. As you finish the quest the item upgrades and gives better stats. You do not pay for this upgrade which the upgrade is about 1.3k gold as proven above (1745g -400g you spend to buy the original item = 1345g). Now take that 1345g you get from upgrades and add that to the 1k you get from both quests and you're looking at 2.3k gold. Hopefully this helps you understand support items more.

I've won many games with a Bad Adc. How? I left them and carried Mid/Jung/Top. I'm pretty secure in my opinion of what a Subjctive view of what a bad adc vs a support is.

I dont think you understand what the term subjective means. So agan, ill explain. If i get a challenger support and pair him with a plat adc hes going to see him as bad according to his standard whereas if i get a bronze support pair him with a gold adc hes going to see the adc as good according to his standard. Does that mean the plat adc is worse than the gold adc? Probably not. This is generally speaking and assuming rank represents skill, to explain that subjective views aren't solid ground for arguments.

I know you believe Support is a punching bag. I'll leave you to it.

At least try to understand what we're talking about before you throw around insults.

IllabetheJan 8, 20201 votes

An Assigned gold value to a specific function of an item is not actually valued nor honored by Riot. Otherwise every item would be valued around 100% efficiency after balance. In reality that system of argument evaluates some items as "82% gold effective while other items are 132% gold effective." At the very least, this discrepancy shouldn't happen among meta, common items. But it does. ALL of them.

(P.S. You could easily argue that HP value should not be pegged to Ruby, AD not to Long Sword, etc, and that starting components are what are Gold ineffective and not representing the mean)

The only real way to value gold income is by the absolute cost, and I broke that down;

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/R9E9dbqG-new-support-items-and-why-they-favor-damage-supports-stopping-at-1000g

As most supports stopped at tier 2, generally you only need to consider the value of a T2 upgrade, which is included in this post.

The new items lost a 3150g potential when converted for Season 10 in a 40 minute comparison. It relatively loses parity by 14:40, and that's not including all the gold value it lost in functionality.

Even if we looked at items your way:

Old T3 value: 250G in Mana Regeneration 263 in 10% CDR 761.25 in AP 533 in HP The Wiki never came up with a Gold value for Tribute, or the damage associated with it. Since we can compare directly the gold portion, we can reduce it to just the damage. 18 damage is applied both on hit and on spells, so it's at least worth 400G, since the scaling per both Long Sword and an Amplifying Tome

That means the item was worth at least 2207.5G T 2 was worth about 1407.25

This doesn't include the wards, as they also didn't calculate the value there, and both versions have them.

New item Value: (as of 10.1 to give some credit)

500g in Mana regeneration 266.3 in HP 978.75 in AP And that's all.

New T3: 1745,05 Gold.

T3 New Minus T3 Old:

1745.05 - 400 = 1345G 2207.5 - 1800 = 407.5

#Difference in possible savings: 938

Now...... if we're looking at it from this perspective, that's 938g Savings..... in exchange for 3645 lost gold income by 40 minutes

Even if we're bottling this argument around a 32 minute average game, it's vs 2637 G income lose.

#In other words, on average game length, the net loss in Gold for the new items is 1699G

And that's using your own perception of Gold base values, which rely on basic components as being "stat efficient."

You dont take a healer and complain that your healer doesnt do enough dmg, you say my healer is there to keep my dps alive. My supports are there to buff my dmg dealers and protect them.

Sums down to saying supports are heal/shield bots and should do whatever it takes to keep someone else alive, but especially in terms of healing/shielding, and not doing damage.

And As I said; RIGHT NOW THE QUEST AND UPGRADE ARE ONE AND THE SAME. THE STATS COME ALONG WITH THE WARDS.

In Season 9 or before, they both came upon Tier 2 Purchase and completion. T3 had no impact on Quest. So up to T2, they were near the same time.

The 1000 Quest gold is meaningless to the argument, except for the negative income AFTER it's complete!. The Old item had that 1000g too. You're trying to add value twice by including this.

Subjective can also mean, The viewpoint of a support of how others play and the viewpoint of other roles of how support plays. Rank vs Rank is just another interpretation of subjectiveness.

You're basically trying to use this rank argument to rank shame in a way that doesn't violate the forums.

I understand the game (and math) more than you <3.

Chainman3Jan 9, 20202 votes

You could easily argue that HP value should not be pegged to Ruby, AD not to Long Sword, etc, and that starting components are what are Gold ineffective and not representing the mean

You couldnt make this argument because then you could argue that no item is "cost effective" and every item is gold ineffective. In a sense setting your own standards of what effective should or should not be.

As most supports stopped at tier 2, generally you only need to consider the value of a T2 upgrade, which is included in this post.

This is again, wrong, just because supports stopped building at tier 2 doesnt mean they dont get stats from the 3rd upgrade. If you dont want the upgrade then have the quest stop at 500 and dont get an upgrade then you can make this case, until then if you accept the t3 upgrade you have to also accept the gold in stats you get along with it. You dont get to toss out gold/stats just because it fits your argument.

The new items lost a 3150g potential when converted for Season 10 in a 40 minute comparison. It relatively loses parity by 14:40, and that's not including all the gold value it lost in functionality.

Average game length is 25 mins not 40 mins first of all. Second of all you're referring to max potential which is absurd because you wont be able to poke every 10 seconds an enemy champion especially once teamfighting starts 15 mins into the game. So your number (3150g) is extremely inflated.

Old T3 value: 250G in Mana Regeneration 263 in 10% CDR 761.25 in AP 533 in HP The Wiki never came up with a Gold value for Tribute, or the damage associated with it. Since we can compare directly the gold portion, we can reduce it to just the damage. 18 damage is applied both on hit and on spells, so it's at least worth 400G, since the scaling per both Long Sword and an Amplifying Tome

That means the item was worth at least 2207.5G T 2 was worth about 1407.25

This doesn't include the wards, as they also didn't calculate the value there, and both versions have them.

New item Value: (as of 10.1 to give some credit)

500g in Mana regeneration 266.3 in HP 978.75 in AP And that's all.

New T3: 1745,05 Gold.

T3 New Minus T3 Old:

1745.05 - 400 = 1345G 2207.5 - 1800 = 407.5

Difference in possible savings: 938

And you completely ignored that you had to pay for the old t3 whereas now you get it for free??? Where you used to have to pay 1000g for the tier 3 upgrade now you pay nothing.

Now...... if we're looking at it from this perspective, that's 938g Savings..... in exchange for 3645 lost gold income by 40 minutes

Again, heavily inflated income because you arent poking every 10 seconds especially after laning phase.

Even if we're bottling this argument around a 32 minute average game, it's vs 2637 G income lose.

You arent bottling anything when you heavily inflate your numbers purposefully.

And As I said; RIGHT NOW THE QUEST AND UPGRADE ARE ONE AND THE SAME. THE STATS COME ALONG WITH THE WARDS.

YOU GET 1000G FROM QUESTS. YOU ALSO GET THE UPGRADES. WHERE THEY HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME YOU CAN STILL SPEND THAT 1000G ON ANOTHER ITEM. WHAT IS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND HERE?

The Old item had that 1000g too. You're trying to add value twice by including this.

Im saying the current item generates 2.3k gold/stats between upgrades and quest gold.The old frostfang generated 1.4k gold on average and you had to pay for the t2 upgrade taking away 450g from the gold leaving you with only 1k gold. So the new support item actually gives you more gold than the old one in terms of stats to your character.

The viewpoint of a support of how others play and the viewpoint of other roles of how support plays. Rank vs Rank is just another interpretation of subjectiveness.

You just agreed with me.... That we can only make subjective decisions and we can only make claims on players not push facts on players.

You're basically trying to use this rank argument to rank shame in a way that doesn't violate the forums.

I said it was an example to show the logic not shame to anyone.

I understand the game (and math) more than you <3.

You've already proved this is false. By your heavily skewed numbers, false interpretations of terms and stats and trying to attack the ethics of a point being made rather than the point.

IllabetheJan 9, 20201 votes

Just because you say that Long Sword etc shouldn't be the gold standard, doesn't mean you're saying all are gold inefficient. You could peg the value off a dissected. You don't need it to be the lowest common denominator, which already proves that all items are "cost inefficient."
It is not players' faults that Riot is giving players a T3 upgrade for participation that is equal in utility to old T2, yet is argued to be equal to the old T3. The functionality and slight boost to AP was better served on the next item.
Average game length at Gold is 32: 36 Average game length at Masters is 29:56. Try again.

You also managed to exclude and blind my addendum to that status to read out 32 minute numbers.

Also, I actually HAVE almost maxed out these numbers. Even if you don't get it every game, a realistic assumption is the consumption of 60-70% that rate. I care not about the absolute value. I care about the potential, and by trying to argue potential you have to cede that the same rule applied to both Season 9 and Season 10 poke; If you were going to use 70% of your potential poke in Season 9, you will use 70% of your potential poke in Season 10, reducing the rates of both items THE SAME. 3150 is not inflated. If it's inflated, so is the Season 10 1500+

None of that math ignores the items being free vs not free. Look at the numbers. It's INCLUDED.

T3 New Minus T3 Old:

1745.05 - 400 = 1345G 2207.5 - 1800 = 407.5

Still not inflated, because the rates of proc in Season 9 and 10 are the same.
Again..... no numbers are inflated. You must be a trumper. Say something enough; it must be true.
YOU GET 1000g from POKING AND USING THE ITEM The 1000g is being double counted in your math. I don't know how that is so hard for you to understand. It's being used ONCE in mine. You're trying to argue that somehow you get an ADDITIONAL 1000g.
No.... Old Frostfang generated about 2700g, and new only generates 1394G in a 32 minute game. New is worth 1745 in stats. OLD was for 2207;

Stop Skewing stat values.

The was the whole point of the Subjective argument YOU argued with.
I've actually proved myself correct and you an arguer based on false testimony and nonmath.

Chainman3Jan 9, 20202 votes

If you think you can determine the cost of ad from Bork go ahead and try. Every way you do it im gonna ask you why would you price lifesteal at the certain amount. Attack speed at a certain amount and attack dmg at that certain amount. Can you justify your claims then? With no item that is solely priced off 1 stat you wouldn’t be able to price a stat on a certain amount of gold.
You’ve now changed your entire argument from the previous post about your gold income to “it’s not the player’s fault riot is giving you an upgrade you didn’t ask for”. Did you ever consider maybe riot did that on purpose to force players to spend gold on the t3 support item instead of playing a 2nd mid laner down in bot?
Neither is 40 mins. I’ll explain why it’s inflated. I’m not pushing 1500+ based on how often I’m attacking enemies throughout the course of the game. There’s a set quest for 1k (both 500s) that will be done around the 13-16 min mark. This is around or before teamfighting begins. To say you’re gonna get 70% of the charges in lane is an okay assumption but then to say you’re gonna get 70% of the charges AFTER laning phase when team’s are grouping and fights finish in a matter of seconds. Even if you managed to get all your stacked charges that’s 3 charges and there won’t be another fight for at least 2 mins. Which 6*2 is 12 charges you got 3 of them. 3/12 = 1/4 which is 25% of charges not 70%. This is why your numbers are inflated. You estimated 45% more charges proc’d over a 15 min span.
You tossed in 1800 randomly and didn’t explain where it came from. I can say 1900-10 = 1890 10-1= 9 1890-9=1881

This proves my point. (This is more or less what you’re doing)

5-6. Check my 3rd point above the proof.

Apparently you don’t understand: you’re getting 1k gold AND the upgrade. The upgrade is worth 1.3k gold in stats. 1.3k+1k = 2.3k gold. If you understand where the 1.3k is coming from and you understand where the 1k is coming from how do you even try to argue this?
Show me a statistic where players were on average getting 2700g from frostfang.
I argued the subjective point saying you don’t get to choose who’s bad and who’s good because that’s subjective. YOU argued that you’ve been a support for awhile and can judge your adc accurately which is what I called subjective and it is. Don’t try to weasel out of it now.
You have yet to argue once against my math. You instead go into absurd potential gold generated that can’t be reached in an actual game. This is like me saying if you’re gonna remove veigar’s passive you need to compensate him by granting him 60/cooldown of his Q * 32 mins ap. That’s absurd because veigar wouldn’t be stacking it the entire time since he’d have down time in deaths and recalls or just moments where he can’t stack it.

I’ve given you logical reason and statistical proof as to why your points fail and all you’ve done is say “you’re wrong and I’ve shown the math” when I’ve already proven your math to be false BECAUSE you’re relying on potential and not actual.

IllabetheJan 9, 20201 votes

You could actually go around, champ to champ, and peg AD's value based off of what it does on mean to champ effectiveness, rather than a base purchase price. That's the real and most effective way to measure cost (and accurate). However, doing so is a lot of work, because you have to account for variable changes in damage rates, % damage, derived healing, etc. That's why people are just accepting a face value purchase price as real value.

The facts are that Riot doesn't balance items around 100% cost effectiveness of those base items. They vary from 75 to 140% "Gold effectiveness," and many passives are ignored when appraising those costs because they are unique.

I didn't change anything. That was me basically saying: Our current T3 is more or less equal to an old T2. It's lost that much gold value in utility (CDR/reduced AP/On hit/Spell Damage, rate of Gold accumulation/shutoff).
Your assumption here is every fight is an ace, and there are no turrets, and that every rendezvous takes 2 minutes to occur. There are various reasons why none of those are true.

-If there is an ace, you kill turrets. -If there isn't an ace, stack usage is staggered. -You can store up to a half minute in charges, so is you're at least doing something every 30 seconds (assuming not dead) you can fully utilize charges. -Teams have Teleport, move bonuses, and it takes about 47 seconds mid game to ress and adjoin a jungle/drake fight. -Support doesn't have to do nothing but team fight, and I often push turrets indifferent of team fights

(Considering all this stuff is why my gold averages are all higher than most support players).

There will be some loss of charges. But the loss implies you did nothing for 30 seconds straight, and it doesn't usually take that long to reach some turret or another opponent.

1800G https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Remnant_of_the_Watchers

New item costs 400 Old Item cost 1800.

The math removes the upgrade costs/purchase costs and analyzes the benefits after cost.

In other words, the new item has a positive 938 savings (the argument that you don't have to pay for upgrades benefit to buying other items)

But that 938 is offset by a massive loss to potential income (3195 max in 40 minutes, 2704 at 32 minutes. Even assuming 50% Stack usage, that's a loss of 414 gold after costs when you subtract the cost savings. I'm closer to a 70-80% stack user)

You don't understand what you are saying; Maybe I should reword this: I'm already deducting the 1000G from the actual income. Or rather, I did on the old item, and didn't on the new, which means that the Old's chart value reflects the value of purchase vs free upgrades. You see that column off to the right of Old? When the math reaches 500g of natural income from the old Spellthief family, I debited the upgrade cost from your gold effective stream. That math doesn't occur in the new item. It just goes towards income. I didn't deduct 1000, because that wasn't the old item's math. It was actually 1400(400g Tier 2, 1000g Tier 3), and the stats on T2 were comparable to what is now T3, because of the CDR, On hit damage, etc.

Gold is gold. Unless there's a cost associated with gaining it, the Quest 1000g is treated the same in both versions.

I've argued against your math the entire time. You just refuse it. You didn't even realize my math deducts the cost of the old item and the cost of the new item, which makes your entire argument about "1000g" that both items got null and void.

Chainman3Jan 9, 20202 votes

1)You couldnt use a champ's value because then you'd have to set your own gold value for each stat, furthermore, champions have 0 ap so the price of ap couldnt be set and yet its still a stat in the game. So your method wouldnt work. On top of that ad champions normally have higher ad values than ap champions that doesnt mean they're innately stronger than ap champions since ap champions usually have better scalings on their kits. So you couldnt use this method either without adding ambiguity to it.

2)Thats a false claim in of its own and ill do the math for you. 10% cdr = 266g 20 ap = 435g 50% mana regen = 250g dmg on passive = ~400g (matching it with the 15 dmg from the on hit on wits end 375g on wits) That comes out to 1351g without the income generation or gold charges ill explain why im leaving these out when going over the next item.

the new t3 support item 45 ap = 979g 100 health = 266g 100% mana regen = 500g This comes out to 1745g

Now for the gold generation the new one has 3gold/5 where as the old frostfang has 2g/5. So even then you'd be getting more from the new t3 item. Now all thats left is the gold charges. So lets calculate the difference to see how much you'd need to break even with the new item.

Frostfang worth 1351g -850g you pay for it = 501g Shard of true ice 1745g - 400g you pay for it = 1345g

1345g-501g = 844g difference. Now to get the tier 3 upgrade you need 1000g from the quest which leads to a 1000g+844g = 1844g difference

So for frostfang to break even you need to be making 1844g with its charges throughout the entire game. So like i said before if you can post a statistic showing frostfang's average gold from charges being @1900 or more then yea the old frostfang is better, if you cant then you have no argument here.

I already gave you the benefit of proc'ing all your stacked charges. With death timers at 40+ seconds grouping and centering your team into an area to fight for an objective or push waves i can say can take at least 20 seconds. Then theres the time waiting for the team to respawn which if there was a 10 second gap between the first guy's death and the last one you're looking at not being able to group for at least 50 seconds. Both team's arent just spawning and running at each other the entire game, but even if we were to assume this you're still not getting 6 charges every 2 mins which is only 50% not the 70% you were saying you'd get. You're talking about getting 7-8 charges every 2 mins and thats just not going to happen after laning phase.

You can be doing things without hitting towers or enemy champions, remember that. Setting up vision, taking drake, pushing waves out, taking rift, taking baron. These are all things you could be doing without gaining gold from your charges.

Still regardless these are assumptions and you're right, i used them to counter your assumption of 70% charges proc'd. Again this can be solved with a simple post of the average income from charges from frostfang. Just post that statistic and we can see who's right.

4)Idk why you brought remenant into this discussion or your calculations when in a previous post you stated:

As most supports stopped at tier 2, generally you only need to consider the value of a T2 upgrade, which is included in this post.

I did the math on point 2. You can check it and if you have complaints on it feel free to respond about the math if you feel i missed something.
Good, then all you have to do is post that link that shows the average of the gold charges by frostfang and if you're right it'll come out 1900 or more. Simple way to solve this. We're not talking about potential or calculated we're talking how much did people actually earn with the item. In my experience is was 1200g to 1400g not 1900g.

ChaosReynJan 6, 20205 votes

Pfft. I main support and if you're going to be insulting about our role, you need to sit the fuck down kid.

As a support main, there are two main stages - the "healslut" stage where you literally throw yourself completely at your team's mercy, die for them on a whim, would rather die than not place a deep ward for your adc to ignore completely and still die to the gank, etc...and then there's the stage most supports are at: the "domination" stage, where we decide who lives and dies, and do not tolerate idiots who go in with poor vision into a 2v4 before they can establish said vision.

As a support, I can say for certain that I feel FAR more powerful than a losing jungler, for most of the game, as most games will end by like 20 minutes so the losing jungler can never catch up. And as a support, I can in this season go personally fucking harass the enemy jungler and know that just my 10 seconds of bluffing, showing up on their screen and making them play around just the possibility of an early concentrated invade automatically put them like 2 levels behind our own jungler by 10 minutes. I can literally show up in their jungle at 2 minutes, throw ONE ability and a deep ward, and gtfo before their bot lane can start to collapse...that right there just cost them any hope of an early lead. It's ACTUALLY that bad, that I can go as a weakling little support, bully them that early in the game and know they're FUCKED for the rest of it.

The jungle is in a horrible shape right now. And I can say that because I DONT jungle, and still do better than 70% of the people I get autofilled against who can't do shit all with the role. Support gets bitched at just as much as jungle does, so I'm used to it already, and right now jungle feels more like a worse version of support. As a support main with next to no idea how to jungle, I can still consistently jungle better than the carrys that get the autofill. The only ones that I can't beat are the actual jungle mains, who have still all but quit the role because it feels that bad.

in a hood near uJan 6, 20201 votes

[deleted]

ChaosReynJan 7, 20205 votes

Youre forgetting 3 things:

It's solo queue. People ignore pings ALL THE TIME, and junglers THE MOST out of everyone because they're always flamed from the VERY START to gank all 3 lanes, constantly. And nobody thinks about the supports cheesing people, unless they're Blitzcrank. Ever. Because supports are "weak and only exist to help ADC"

Now, the issue with your rank shaming is that it's against Boards rules. Bye felicia.

RecessHeroJan 7, 20201 votes

You clearly never played support when you were literally a ward bot and often ended games with only two full items in a 40 minute game. Riot has done a ton to make support better. If you talk to any legitimate player, they would likely tell you support was the most powerful role the past two years.

IllabetheJan 7, 20201 votes

Never mind my main champs in order on this account, Aredethe, and my 2 mains:

Nami Morgana Leona Soraka and that I have well over 1800 games a year playing them. (This account has 124 Support games just in this Postseason, 528 Support Champion games in Season 9 (Some of those were jungling, but probably 40% were Support)

But yeah. Having over 19000 games under my belt and a Diamond II account..... I'm not a "real player."

RecessHeroJan 7, 20202 votes

What's this "real player" talk? I never said that at all you nitwit. Stop looking for a argument.

I was saying that Riot did in fact put in a lot of work to make supports more enjoyable for the player base and that because of those changes, supports have secretly been one of the most (if not the most) powerful roles in the game. Most players would automatically identify mid as the most OP role because of it's positioning on the map. However, a lot of high-elo and pro players would tell you that support was secretly the most important role in the game.

When did you start playing League? If you played seasons 1-5, you would know what I'm talking about when I say supports were ward bots. It wasn't until dedicated support items, trinkets and a passive gold increase that allowed supports to actually buy more than two real items in a game. It's the reason many mage supports have been overpowered in recent seasons.

As I mentioned previously, before you had an ego meltdown, supports used to have to buy nothing but wards and were lucky to have two completed items in a long game. However, in the past few seasons, supports nearly had as much gold as everyone else and would often finish games only a half item behind other laners. Supports are one of the biggest factors in damage creep that not nearly enough people talk about. You legitimately have to account for their damage now or you will surely get destroyed by them, whereas before, most supports literally tickled everyone else.

IllabetheJan 7, 20201 votes

I started playing in Season 3.

I'm aware of the progression of the role - a role that in the beginning wasn't even a declared role, but rather an after thought of the fact Riot had 3 lanes and 2 floaters (Jungle wasn't Established until the game was already mature either). But you wrote your post in the context of "for Season 10" and more specifically the last 2 years.

And then you talked about "Legitimate" player when in reality, I've both played this game more, and spent more on this game than you and most players by FAR.

It is part of the reason damage supports are taking over. It's also the fact they can actually farm, have stronger CC, and built in base damages in favor vs scaling AP damage (See Brand and Vel Koz % damages and spam, and low mana costs).

P.S. Spellthief was added in Season 3, and you're also forgetting that there used to be 2 additional sources of gold for Supports: There was a Mastery, AND runes that increased Gold generation (1 gold per minion death, up to 2.5G per 10 gold accumulation).

RecessHeroJan 8, 20202 votes

P.S. Spellthief was added in Season 3, and you're also forgetting that there used to be 2 additional sources of gold for Supports: There was a Mastery, AND runes that increased Gold generation (1 gold per minion death, up to 2.5G per 10 gold accumulation).

Are you actually trying to argue that gold gen back then for supports was greater than it has been recently? That's actually absurd and factually incorrect.

It's also the fact they can actually farm, have stronger CC,

Another factually incorrect statement. The most common support mages of Zyra, Brand and Velkoz have nowhere near the same level of CC as Leona, Thresh, Nautilus, Braum, Blitz and others. Also, you shouldn't be farming as a support in the first place.

Also, I hard disagree damage supports are taking over right now. Supports received a pretty large nerf to their gold income after early game. So full AP supports aren't nearly as viable as they have been previously. Anyone can look at the pick rates and win rates right now and see how wrong you are.

I've both played this game more, and spent more on this game than you and most players by FAR.

And no, I've been playing this game on and off since season 2 buddy, but thanks for the lecture.

Thresh Outta FuxJan 8, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Explain WTF you mean by

It's not fun lmfao. Half the time you are outright shut down/have to play passive/no income/pulled along by the fate/skill of the REST of your team.

If you feel that everyone's harassing you, you probably aren't doing your "job" as often as you should. Developing that opinion takes some history of afk farming.

Also, if you think Jungle is a job, you've obviously never been a successful laner. 80% of your jungle is spent in non-encounters, easy farming, with reliable chunks of gold from a single target. Lanes you have to secure 6-8 minions just to get the same gold, and you have to last hit all of them while under duress of poke. Whut? Jungle a job? You're obviously playing the wrong role/game.

I've never seen a more incorrect post in my entire approximate 8 years on the forums. If you think laning is harder than farming, then you shouldn't be laning, or even thinking about jungling. You should be playing TFT.

IllabetheJan 8, 20201 votes

You never played jungle in Season 3/4 when recovery methods were 1/3 as effective and you actually had to orb camps to reduce incoming damage.

You've obviously never played Vayne/Nami into a Caitlyn or Jinx.

You've obviously never played Ornn into Darius.

Jungle is easy as hell compared to old meta. I don't even have to orb on Nidalee anymore.

Thresh Outta FuxJan 12, 20201 votes

{quoted}

You never played jungle in Season 3/4 when recovery methods were 1/3 as effective and you actually had to orb camps to reduce incoming damage.

You've obviously never played Vayne/Nami into a Caitlyn or Jinx.

You've obviously never played Ornn into Darius.

Jungle is easy as hell compared to old meta. I don't even have to orb on Nidalee anymore.

Jungle was my favorite role in 3/4. I started as a Jungle main, and I stayed there all the way until around season 7. I'm not sure who you jungled, but I never struggled. I even have 30+ minute games somewhere on my extended match history where I never even bought items after my first clear, just kept ganking and farming.

I'm not a Vayne player, champ always seemed too cheesy to me. I've never struggled in lane as Nami vs any ADC, but against certain supports, yeah.

I just played two games as Thresh into Darius. Lost em both due to reasons outside of my control, but I beat him in lane and stomped hard. Darius is just a struggle in general to lane against, he's very oppressive.

Sure, the clear is easy, but the actual impact you can have on the game is completely different. There's 4-8 junglers who completely wreck shit, and everyone else is mediocre. If you're invaded at level 4 and lose your buff and die to the enemy jungler, they kill your gromp too and go back to full clear, if you do red jungle to recover your losses you are at an XP value of 1/3 of what the enemy jungler now has, plus you're down all that gold. At that point, you're so far behind that you might as well just leave the game.

I guess the main conclusion is that jungling while ahead on an aggressive jungler works just fine. But anyone who gets outstatted by a more aggressive enemy jungler does not get any recovery method to come back from that.

IllabetheJan 12, 20201 votes

Then you stuck to on hit junglers and never bothered improving jungler skills. If you started in Season 3/4, you had jungle items. And if you ganked bot without them, you weren't even level 2.
Sorry. You're wrong. You just have a selective opinion of who is actually a jungler.

Amumu Chogath Diana DrMundo Elise Ekko Evelynn Hecarim JarvanIV Jax Karthus Kayn Khazix Kindred LeeSin Malphite MasterYi Morgana Mordekaiser Nidalee Nocturne Olaf Rammus RekSai Rengar Shaco Tryndamere Volibear Warwick Zac Zyra

are all completely viable, meta junglers right now who all have tools to deal with any kind of harass.

2b) If you let the invader go back and full clear their own jungle after stealing some of yours, YOU ARE NOT A GOOD JUNGLER. Good Junglers know when they are being invaded, and where to path to recover CS, cut off and triple gank te invader, and take Drake Priority.

Here's a hint: If an invader takes your blue, or shows obvious signs they haven't touched mid scuttle, creep their blue/jungle. If nothing's taken, ward, prioritize the blue, pathing toward the berry. If you take it and still no reaction, take his gromp too. By this point you should be level 4 off your 3 red side clears + his bot side blue.

Then impose ganks, force him into going to the starved camps, and then recall. Go get the camps he didn't top side on the way to ganking top. If top is not accessible, ward and path his berry to take his Krugs. Then head Top or mid.

Just because someone is invading you doesn't mean with superior map awareness, and superior knowledge of ward locations you can't outplay it.

I outplay ALL meta junglers with Zyra Morgana .

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/3260434629/243999882?tab=overview

Literally 1 sided game, and Kayn invaded and stole my blue. I did exactly what I said above. I ended up owning his jungle as Morgana the ENTIRE GAME. Furthermore, I was part of 13 of 15 of the first 15 kills. If I didn't forget late game that I was squishy and they had plenty of CC, I literally would have not died this game. At all.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/3258949043/243999882?tab=overview

Dominated as Zyra.

Furthermore, these were Gold III Junglers. Not Bronze trash. still behaved like trash.

Thresh Outta FuxJan 12, 20201 votes

{quoted}

Then you stuck to on hit junglers and never bothered improving jungler skills. If you started in Season 3/4, you had jungle items. And if you ganked bot without them, you weren't even level 2.

Sorry. You're wrong. You just have a selective opinion of who is actually a jungler.

are all completely viable, meta junglers right now who all have tools to deal with any kind of harass.

2b) If you let the invader go back and full clear their own jungle after stealing some of yours, YOU ARE NOT A GOOD JUNGLER. Good Junglers know when they are being invaded, and where to path to recover CS, cut off and triple gank te invader, and take Drake Priority.

Here's a hint: If an invader takes your blue, or shows obvious signs they haven't touched mid scuttle, creep their blue/jungle. If nothing's taken, ward, prioritize the blue, pathing toward the berry. If you take it and still no reaction, take his gromp too. By this point you should be level 4 off your 3 red side clears + his bot side blue.

Then impose ganks, force him into going to the starved camps, and then recall. Go get the camps he didn't top side on the way to ganking top. If top is not accessible, ward and path his berry to take his Krugs. Then head Top or mid.

Just because someone is invading you doesn't mean with superior map awareness, and superior knowledge of ward locations you can't outplay it.

I outplay ALL meta junglers with .

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/3260434629/243999882?tab=overview

Literally 1 sided game, and Kayn invaded and stole my blue. I did exactly what I said above. I ended up owning his jungle as Morgana the ENTIRE GAME. Furthermore, I was part of 13 of 15 of the first 15 kills. If I didn't forget late game that I was squishy and they had plenty of CC, I literally would have not died this game. At all.

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/3258949043/243999882?tab=overview

Dominated as Zyra.

Furthermore, these were Gold III Junglers. Not Bronze trash. still behaved like trash.

Heck no lol. You didn't even list my main jungle boi. I'm saying I ran machete only for 30m games, not zero items.

While your strategies are efficient to deal with being counterjungled, and your champion picks are great at applying those strategies, you're talking as a jungle player vs everyone else who keeps getting autofilled to your role because there aren't enough junglers that play your way, or want to for that matter.

Right now, if you're getting counterjungled you're just fucked if you're not playing Illabethe's jungle spectacular.

The laners are at an all time low for player education (they're building lethality into tanks ffs, and none of them want to learn how the game works), they're just following the streamtards who didn't even know about Frozen Heart and Liandrys interaction. I can only expect that a lane won't lose if I'm in it. Everyone is playing the flavor of the week instead of sticking to champs they're good at.

You shouldn't be sitting here insisting that Jungle is fine when statistically, the player count for the role is probably lower than the pick rate of the Cleanse summoner spell. Because if everyone hates the role, we're going to start seeing Support and Top Support running smite, dipping into jungle for farm, then coming back to lane, then roaming together for ganks. The role needs help, it needs popularity, Riot needs to fix it, the only alternatives are the meta changing or the players growing tired of losing every 3rd game because they get autofilled jungle and searching for new entertainment.

Playing Jungle simply does not draw in players right now. I'm more likely to get autofilled Jungle than support. The popularity is at an all time low, and it sucks. I queue support every 3 games for autofill protection just to attempt to avoid getting stuck in JG, when I'd normally queue Fill because I like to play everywhere.

IllabetheJan 12, 20201 votes

Ah you're basically talking about the meta where the jungle item really wasn't worth building so people just rushed items.

And then they introduced Wriggles/Feral Flame again, and suddenly people began finishing them again.

I'm sorry, but good junglers expect the invade and work around it. I understand how frustrating it is; I lost one of my games tonight as Morg vs a Shaco, because I literally had a Heimderdinger support...... who bought item 1056 and literally the entire game was 90% BLIND vs Shaco + Talon.

I mean...... wtf do you do about vision when your entire team only has their free ward budget, no one but you places Control wards, and there's a Shaco, a Talon, AND a Zilean....

It's real fun to kill Talon three times in a row because of GA + Zilean, whose E can juke any skill shots..... when your team has no wards.

BUT; That is an aberrant result of someone trolling a Dorans and starving a team of any ward items. Not jungle vs Jungle. I was starving the Shaco, and I was keeping him underleveled...... but it didn't mean crap, when Zilean was scaling, Talon was able to juke past people and assassinate because of a Zilean boost.

Game gets worn out gradually because we can't even properly ward drakes/or properly coordinate turret defenses.

I explicitly play Support/Jungle, and I can tell you with confidence; I've only gotten the jungle role 4 out of 49 games in the preseason. Support's still getting the bulk of the autofills.