He basically said that Neeko W reads as: "Fuck Wukong. it gives you a 3 hit passive, ms and the clone that moves in a direction." But, I guess it was hard to give wukong a mini rework, had to make that cash money on a new champ.
Frontline Fury33 votesOf course it's a fuck you to wukong. She literally does everything Wukong does, but better.
ValiantKiller4 votes[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-20T09:17:53.077+0000)
Of course it's a fuck you to wukong. She literally does everything Wukong does, but better.
AOE with stuns and shield - Check/
Clone that make you hide and it move on it own - Check/
Movement speed and useful passive - Check/
Tomoe Gozen16 votesWhat annoys me the most about this kind of an attitude is that, when players draw some similarities to existing kits (like LeBlanc and Wukong), this new champion is just a big "fuck you" to these players. Yesterday, i was reading how Neeko is basically LeBlanc 2.0 (because of the trickster thing) while today, i'm reading how Neeko's kit is more suited for Wukong and therefore, should've just prioritized them instead of her...
I'm glad the complainers aren't in charge of the game updates because no matter how you slice it, things are getting quite out of hand. So what, one champion even remotely occupies one design space and now, NOTHING NEW (an item, a rework, a new champ) can even show a similar mechanic, lest Riot be accused of banking dough from the new champion and their skins instead of just improving the older ones?
Get out of town... When Riot reworked Galio and Aatrox, some people were vocal about them just leaving the old and bad designs in the game and making their reworks as NEW champions. Neeko isn't a Wukong/LeBlanc wannabe but since some players dubbed her that way, IT'S STILL A MISTAKE to have a champion in the remotely same design space as these two?
#??? #Where do these comically bad contradictions end?
TheDangerousTaco19 votesI don't think that's the issue though, while I understand where your coming from. I think the players that are upset are that way mainly cause they always wanted better for the champion, only to have it ignored for years and years on end. Riot usually exclaims that they cant find a good design for that champ, yet they introduce a new mechanic that improves a already implemented design way better than the original.
Like for me when xerath players used to have to always zoom on the minimap to see who they were ulting. And bam, jhin comes out with a auto zoom feature.
Not saying your post is wrong, there are players that over exaggerate. But I think this is entirely why riot should focus on improving / reworking more than releasing new champions. Cause there new champions overshadow the other champions greatly
Tomoe Gozen6 votesThat's exactly why VGUs are still a thing. Riot hasn't given up on older champions but it does take time to make them better, ESPECIALLY when even touching one with a 10 foot pole the wrong way will cause someone to REEEE out loud somewhere in the world.
And no, people can't just adopt the new mechanics and think that it's far better to scrap new champ designs in favor of the older ones. If this mechanic was Neeko's thing from the start, Neeko isn't a terribly designed champion or even redundant because someone thinks that her mimicry (or W) is better suited for Wukong or LeBlanc.
I too see the similarities but i'm not here twiddling my thumbs, looking to chastise Riot for them having the audacity to make new and exciting champions because they're not cannibalizing every good idea and forcing it down an older champion's throat because it remotely fits them.
A hallmark of good design is to envision a final product, not throw scraps at the old one and seeing what can part can you glue to it to make it appear more functional than the OG version. They're not looking for a passable version of the champion, they need them to play good, feel good and look good after they're done with their design.
SennaFirstPick2 votesi'm still up to that old galio kit you know, or old poppy, those were good kits, for the one playing them.
Tomoe Gozen1 votesYou mean that Galio kit where he could deny magic burst for years, all from his abilities alone?
Yea, that was a "fun" kit to be playing against, as a burst mage.
SennaFirstPick2 voteswell, shit, it ain't fun playing ashe vs rengar either, mate. it's called counterpick for a reason.
next argument its probably gonna be "rework adcs because they can kite juggernauts"
Tomoe Gozen1 votesNo, there are soft and hard counters theoretically. League doesn't have hard counterpicks - those are the champions you know you automatically lose against and don't get to play League, if you pick a champion that can be countered easily even in champ select.
Assassins have ways of getting to squishies like Ashe but unless Rengar is fed, Ashe isn't losing to him the moment he's picked. And that's actually true for any fed champion, even tanks.
Old Galio was thematically way off with his design and his kit literally destroyed any hope for a magic damage user to even get an edge. Fighting him with or without any AP was never an option, even when he was getting ganked due to heavily ingrained MR and "heal-on-damage" MR shield. He acted as a hard counterpick to ANY mage. Meanwhile his AP scaled with his MR, which rewarded him for heavily investing in the anti-magic defense while mages would just have to give up on ever killing him in lane.
SennaFirstPick1 votesno his scaling on mr was shit, he only builded spirit visage and then full ap
Tomoe Gozen1 votesThe point isn't that he built MR for AP, the point was that he scaled from the only stat that was super hard against mages to get around, in the beginning of the game. His W was an even bigger MR buff for a few seconds + heal. 150-200 MR without a Void Staff or GV, was pretty easy for Galio to play.
Mages don't get to poke him or outplay him, they can't move him from the lane. So that lane become a farmfest against Galio.
ModCaptainMårvelous12 votes[{quoted}](name=Frontline Fury,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-11-20T09:17:53.077+0000)
Of course it's a fuck you to wukong. She literally does everything Wukong does, but better.
I don't think Neeko is ever going to duskblade out of nothingness and crush my fuckin' brain with a duskblade Q proc like Wukong can tho.
Graham Cracker6 votesI play some wukong jg and if you can get past his bad clear and bad early game then he is crazy. Matches where I'm losing hard as wukong I struggle to hit duskblade+stormrazor and then I can kill anything that doesn't have two health/armor items almost instantly. After that point he keeps scaling harder and harder to where only full tanks can survive. The champion is really really unhealthy for the game since he is awful early and then has extremely low counter play lategame.
Sharpest glasses4 votesYou play normal game... and just clearly you had trouble to OS, you spend most of your game with assist despite playing a carry cause Wukong lack of damages. Stormrazor is trash if you dont build crit btw.
I think its more you support pov talking now.
Graham Cracker5 votesEdit: Just saw your other posts in this thread and I get it now, you're just a shitty person that shits on people that are support mains or lower elo than you instead of actually proving your points. Also found your main account "Ryuumoku no koke" which you have 600 games on wukong so I can clearly see you want a buff because you can't manage to maintain a decent winrate on the only champ you play.
If I'm understanding what you're even saying(need to polish your clarity) then you're just wrong. I'm a support main but play more jg and know a lot about the game. It sounds like you're saying Wukong lacks damage which if you reread my first sentence I said his early game is bad but his late game is super strong https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2907320663/228808519?tab=overview here is a match that's RANKED even(I know you like ranked matches buddy). I hit stormrazor after our team being behind ~6k gold at 15 minutes(which is a really big margin to make up) and then I was the strongest person on the map able to 1v3 any of them. Since you clearly looked at my match history I have a couple carry matches and the wukong one was the only one with a lot more assists since I didn't hit my strong point until right at the end since my friend carried. Stormrazor isn't bad without crit it's a 1.4x buff to autos which could be like a second duskblade, oh and I built crit(RFC which is basically another duskblade) so the item is worth even more. I have to say your 0 matches recently really makes me think you know this meta really well cause viewing is much better than experiencing it. I think it's more of your wrong pov talking now. I see you have mastery 5 so you must have some experience with him, I too have mastery, mine is at 6. The more I read your post it sounds like you actually just agreed with what I said but you're also insulting me.
Sharpest glasses2 votesi had a big post as response... f*ck me i refreshed.
Anyway.
I want a buff cause the champ sucks/weak af. The only champ i play =/= what i can play. my recent loses aren't only due to my champs...
Yeah, am not saying Wukong late lack of damage (at least not lack when full build). But the game isnt decided during late, i dont know how its for NA but on Euw you can clearly know who will win at 5 min (most of time). And it didnt change with preseason changes.
When i say Stormrazor is trash, i talk about in case where you dont build crit (sure its not the worse item...).
I think it's more of your wrong pov talking now. I see you have mastery 5 so you must have some experience with him, I too have mastery, mine is at 6.
i can upgrade my mastery when i wish... but its pointless. And it dosnt prove anything. like a bronze could be mastery on Yasuo and still be clueless.
I didnt insulted you, saying you have a pov of a non Wukong main was a fact at most.
So you have experience as jungler. You know most game are decided in first ten min. As jungler you rely on your laners to secure scuttles, visions, invades... As laners you need to create opportunity for your jungler to controle the map. If you pick Wukong :
TLDR :
Wukong lack of damages when needed.
They're a reason why most high elo (D1+) complain when they're a Wukong in their game. Dominate even said to Harambe (best Wukong NA) his pick is trash.
Sharpest glasses2 votesAnd ???? so Wukong is trash, and its nice cause riot dosnt want :
??
Votable Jester2 votesNo she actually does not.
1: Wukong stealth lasts longer so he can use it to sneak in further for a gank. 2: Wukong's burst is much more reliable. 3: Wukong's ult is pretty much guaranteed to knock up the entire enemy team over the course of its duration. Neeko's ult only has one chance to stun everyone. Not to mention Wukong's shred and greater durability.
Neeko's damage does need to be toned down though (primarily on R), and I think they could trim a few small things.
Saianna2 votesNot many ppl remember but Draven was a "fuck you Sivir", or "Sivir 2.0" and Darius was "Garen 2.0". What's better Darius as relased when Garen was in its lowest of low nerfzone, needless to say Darius was overbuffed to fucking infinity and beyond :D
Edit: Forgot about Fiora. She was "Yi 2.0", but when everyone built Yi as AP, she was the AD version.
I'm not just saying "hehe they have similar abilities" or "hehe they play similarly". I'm just saying overall jokes people were doing back in those times.
wolf jade20 votes"Even Scarra's"
scarra is just a player like all of us. i dont see why EVEN scarra. i think her W is fine
option paralysis26 votes[{quoted}](name=wolf jade,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-20T08:57:22.855+0000)
"Even Scarra's"
scarra is just a player like all of us. i dont see why EVEN scarra. i think her W is fine
cuz he doesnt play wukong, exactly, he's just a player that doesnt play wukong and even he said that its a big fuck you to wukong players.
CauseSCIENCE1 votes[{quoted}](name=option paralysis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-20T09:02:07.978+0000)
cuz he doesnt play wukong, exactly, he's just a player that doesnt play wukong and even he said that its a big fuck you to wukong players.
on the other hand, basically anyone with a tracking ability is completely fine.
WøOxer2 votes[{quoted}](name=option paralysis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-20T09:02:07.978+0000)
cuz he doesnt play wukong, exactly, he's just a player that doesnt play wukong and even he said that its a big fuck you to wukong players.
Not everybody have ability to read.
wolf jade3 voteshe forgot to say that he said she is nice champ and he is gonna play her SHE ISNT BROKEN.
Chalze3 votes[{quoted}](name=wolf jade,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-20T08:57:22.855+0000)
i think her W is fine
The point isn't that her W is fine or not, it's the fact that it's literally the perfect way Wukong's W could've/should've/would've been.
Votable Jester4 votesWu's W still has its advantages though. 1: Enemies almost always know when Neeko uses hers because they'll see 2 of her. 2: Wukong is capable of pretending he's used his for mind games. 3: Wukong's doesn't die from 1 hit. 4: Wukong stealths longer, meaning he can use his to gank better. 5: Wukong's is capable of dealing damage (though this is far from reliable, it is still an advantage).
Sharpest glasses6 votesLike all of us ??? no. He was a pro, and he's not a silver.
i think her W is fine
Her kit is nice. Nobody is saying her kit is bad or toxic. Her kit is nice.
Z3Sleeper6 votesEVEN SCARRA THOUGH! He's important! /s
On a side note though it's not that her W isn't fine it's that Wukong's W sucks and this is a change many people have wanted for him that is no doubt never gonna be an option now that another champion has it (the clone moving thing).
Sharpest glasses2 votesYeah the champ sucks... but thats the real issue.
ValiantKiller18 votesFun fact the monkey king should be able to shape shifting too lol
YoRHa 2B3 votesIn Dota you can. Also jumping from tree to tree is fun in Dota.
ValiantKiller2 votes[{quoted}](name=YoRHa 2B,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-11-20T17:23:29.762+0000)
In Dota you can. Also jumping from tree to tree is fun in Dota.
And in smite too, legit it one of his theme in many games and books.
La Bello16 votestbh this entire champs kit should have been cannibalized and spread out amongst 
or 
.
its super greedy on riots part imo to sit up and do this.
Votable Jester3 votesOk, where should her Q, E, and R go between them?
Ooooooh you meant just her W and passive are similar to these 3 champs who also already have similar crossover? Oh ok, so it's fine for 3 champs to have crossover in their abilities, but it's definitely not ok to have 4, got it.
The Trent3 votesYou're joking right??? Wukong, along with Pantheon, is one of the champions that is amazing to main. They're never too bad, but they are often a little bit stronger than other picks. Like they're just always viable, and you want to complain about it? Most Wukongs or at least good ones, know how to use their W to their advantage. Faking using it, then actually using it, etc. A lot of Wukongs I know barely even need to use the W for deceiving people, they just need the stealth to get from a blind spot into the back line with their R. I don't understand your complaint, I don't understand why you think Scara's opinion is worth more than anyone else's. If you think Wukong's w is underpowered, which I can argue that it should be given some passive to give Wukong some extra jungle clear, you should advertise it as your idea. Not some random streamer that isn't even considered good right now. He finished D2 and a lot of people are considering him washed up rn. Like you realize that what makes wukongs W so great is that it doesn't move right? It means you can, as a wukong, stop moving at any moment and people will think you've used your w. Then when they realize you didn't use it, you actually use it, allowing you to have extra value from it.
Also out of everyone you could pick to represent a JUNGLER, you pick SCARRA? If this was Dom's opinion or even NB3, then you might've grabbed my attention, but they realize Wukong is just fine. You even could've asked for Sky William's opinion on this, an actual Wukong main. I know he barely plays anymore, but it's way better than your idea of putting Scarra's opinion on here.
And most important point of all. When you get to an elo where what champion you plays actually matters, you probably have played long enough to own every champion and have extra blue essence to spend on the new champion. I haven't spent money on buying a champion for 5 years. Unless you're smurfing, your point is pretty invalid. If a new player is going to buy a champion, it's probably because they think that champion has cool thematic. Like god damn, I don't know where this whole, riot leaves some champions as bad so new champions make more money, but it's the most bs thing I've ever heard. Wukong isn't even a bad champion by any means.
Dr Dog4 voteshave..... have you ever played wukong? hes dogshit rn, linear predictable and has almost no good matchups in any of the roles he plays, as for faking out with your w that doesnt work on anybody with an IQ over 10, when you cast your w it abruptly stops your walk animation, its very very obvious whether he used w or is just standing still by that alone, his passive is one of the most useless in the game its only semi impactful in a teamfight and even then its just a worse graves passive, most of his power is thrown into his ult which doesnt do all that much in teamfights against a team that isnt stupid and clumping on top of him literally having to build full assassin to do any dmg which is the main issue with him in the community of people that main him, they want him to be a bruiser like he used to be and should still be
The Trent4 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-11-20T16:39:43.097+0000)
have..... have you ever played wukong? hes dogshit rn, linear predictable and has almost no good matchups in any of the roles he plays, as for faking out with your w that doesnt work on anybody with an IQ over 10, when you cast your w it abruptly stops your walk animation, its very very obvious whether he used w or is just standing still by that alone, his passive is one of the most useless in the game its only semi impactful in a teamfight and even then its just a worse graves passive, most of his power is thrown into his ult which doesnt do all that much in teamfights against a team that isnt stupid and clumping on top of him literally having to build full assassin to do any dmg which is the main issue with him in the community of people that main him, they want him to be a bruiser like he used to be and should still be
Literally all wukong mains are having a field day. His winrate has never really dropped below 50%. If you're doing bad as wukong, that's a you thing, not a wukong thing. I'm just looking at the stats. 52% winrate in plat+ with a 0.5% playrate. Aka only his mains are really playing him and he's doing just fine. BTW he has the 3rd highest kill ratio among all junglers, so yeah sure he sucks right now. I seriously think you're just playing wukong wrong if you're having troubles with him. He isn't bad by any means and probably never will be, just as he hasn't been in like forever. I looked at your profile and you have a 64% winrate with wukong, only further proving my point. Why the hell are you complaining exactly?
Stats say he's fine, and has been fine since he first came out. Your profile says you've been doing great with him. Like the hell? Maybe you just don't like his playstyle anymore and so he feels weak to you.. If that's the issue, you should stop playing him, not try to make him sound bad.
Here are some quotes directly from r/wukong mains:
"Am I the only person who already loves his W? I get that the new champs ability is super cool, and with invis it would be cool, but jeez would that be strong. And honestly, I love being able to stop in place and watch how confused the entire enemy team gets. His W already makes for great outplays, but I feel like another champ could use the ability you thought of." https://www.reddit.com/r/Wukongmains/comments/9yizyv/should_wukong_w_work_similar_to_the_new_champions/
This one is literally a guy making fun of Scarra because he doesn't know wtf he's talking about. A wukong player did suggest adding increased movement speed to wukong's w invis which doesn't sound like a bad idea to me "LOL even a guy who doesn't play wukong at all.. god damnit. I guess I gotta play Neeko and pretend Im playing wukong. maybe someone picks him and I can turn into him. XD"
"I think the absolute LEAST they could give to his W would be increased movement speed. New abilities out date old kits so hard it's insane. On a side note... I do like Wukong's clone better, at least for his kit. Dropping a clone in a bush is really awesome for ganks imo. It's just way worse for escaping. " https://www.reddit.com/r/Wukongmains/comments/9ys9i1/scarra_seeing_neeko_w_this_reads_as_fuck_you/
There are some quotes from wukong mains to back up what I'm saying. Literally none of them have an issue with wukong right now. I searched the entire reddit, found no one complaining about him being bad right now. I saw a few posts about them wanting a new passive, but they didn't say that he was bad, they just said his passive was boring. Like I have no idea wtf you're saying when you say wukong is bad. He isn't at all.
Sharpest glasses3 votesYou are a liar. Most Wukong mains agree on the fact the champ is trash. Look at Harambe (best Wukong NA ) keep spamming meddler cause he want a discussion.
Sharpest glasses2 votesYou don't even play Wukong !!! Why a support main even give his opinion ?? You are gold... why do you diss diamond ??
Also out of everyone you could pick to represent a JUNGLER, you pick SCARRA? If this was Dom's opinion or even NB3, then you might've grabbed my attention, but they realize Wukong is just fine
The Trent1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sharpest glasses,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2018-11-20T21:25:06.429+0000)
You don't even play Wukong !!! Why a support main even give his opinion ?? You are gold... why do you diss diamond ??
First of all don't call me a liar, I provided proof for my claims and why the hell would I be LYING ABOUT MY OWN OPINION? Look at this graph and tell me that wukong isn't one of the SAFEST champions to main. His winrate almost never drops, it's consistent. THERE IS LITERALLY A CHALLENGER PLAYER WUKONG MAIN WITH A 70% + WINRATE. DO YOU KNOW HOW HUGE THAT IS???? He has over 107 games played with wukong too. He has won 70+ games out of 103 as wukong. Dude you need to stop calling a completely fine champion garbage because some streamer called him bad. You need to think for yourself. All the stats says he's fine. Actually all of the stats says he's a little above average. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/monkeyking/diamond
Look at the stats of a champion that is actually currently bad, like Sejauni, then look at Wukong.
option paralysis3 votes[{quoted}](name=The Trent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2018-11-21T09:39:49.962+0000)
First of all don't call me a liar, I provided proof for my claims and why the hell would I be LYING ABOUT MY OWN OPINION? Look at this graph and tell me that wukong isn't one of the SAFEST champions to main. His winrate almost never drops, it's consistent. THERE IS LITERALLY A CHALLENGER PLAYER WUKONG MAIN WITH A 70% + WINRATE. DO YOU KNOW HOW HUGE THAT IS???? He has over 107 games played with wukong too. He has won 70+ games out of 103 as wukong. Dude you need to stop calling a completely fine champion garbage because some streamer called him bad. You need to think for yourself. All the stats says he's fine. Actually all of the stats says he's a little above average. https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/monkeyking/diamond
Look at the stats of a champion that is actually currently bad, like Sejauni, then look at Wukong.
ROFL look a little better little buddy. hes challenger in flex, and in d5 in solo q and in fucking turkey. you will never understand if you don't play wukong, so please be quiet while looking at the fucking statistics. go play wukong vs camille/irelia/jax/urgot/fiora/renekton/darius/viktor/etc....................
The Trent1 votes[{quoted}](name=option paralysis,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=0006000100000000,timestamp=2018-11-21T11:25:29.676+0000)
ROFL look a little better little buddy. hes challenger in flex, and in d5 in solo q and in fucking turkey. you will never understand if you don't play wukong, so please be quiet while looking at the fucking statistics. go play wukong vs camille/irelia/jax/urgot/fiora/renekton/darius/viktor/etc....................
First of all, you're listing people who are just lane bullies. Urgot, Renekton, and Darius ARE ALL DESIGNED TO WIN LANE. That is their strength. They're supposed to win early in exchange for them being trash late. That's why in every single one of these match ups, wukong loses lane but has a higher game winrate. Also nothing that you're saying is making Wukong sound like a bad champion. We can all agree, Irellia, Camille, and Jax are extremely powerful right now. They needs nerfs, wukong doesn't need buffs. Also as someone who plays Fiora top often, it's my favorite top laner to play. Wukong vs fiora is a skill match up. Literally the only up side fiora has is maybe her parry into his ultimate, but Wukong has way better base damage and his w to dodge Fiora's q and block her w.
Sharpest glasses2 votesTHERE IS LITERALLY A CHALLENGER PLAYER WUKONG MAIN WITH A 70% + WINRATE. DO YOU KNOW HOW HUGE THAT IS????
http://tr.op.gg/summoner/userName=enrico
chall in flex on the turkey server...
Dude you need to stop calling a completely fine champion garbage because some streamer called him bad.
Just cause the best Wukong NA say the pick is trash, cause Dominate a challenger jungler say the pick is trash... yeah, sure.
mack91123 votesYou didn't mention the part were he said he likes the kit.... Classic boards
Dr Dog4 votesthe point of the post
your head
mack91122 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-11-20T16:30:59.646+0000)
The point is that this is a new champ not a rework those are two entirely different departments..
Dr Dog1 votesagains, thats not the point of the post still
mack91122 votes[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0leoB6VG,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-20T23:47:12.782+0000)
agains, thats not the point of the post still
Maybe some people are tired of coming on this board and literally every post is a bitch fest about something else riot did.
They created a another unique champion but all we can do as a community is flame them.
