Stacks

The Ecdysiast··1 votes·1,218 views

The stacking mechanic is too powerful to be in an easy kit, and its inclusion actually prevents both Nasus and Veigar from getting meaningful gameplay changes. But this isn’t specifically about how they perform, rather how a stacking mechanic should be handled. And the short of it is: stacking should be relatively difficult, not easy. Riot’s actually doubled down on making the mechanic too easy. Rather than even choosing your poking and/or fights properly you can simply refuse to fight until you’re strong enough from only farming— and both champions have the means to do so.

Other differences between the games notwithstanding, HoTS handles stacking much better. The rewarded strength is generally on par with the difficulty of the conditions. Genji, for example, gets a slight damage boost only after he hits enemies 25 times with his shuriken. Kael’thas actually takes it a tad too far in the other direction, having a very high requirement on a difficult to land ability AND losing his progress in death. A happy medium between Genji’s easier-but-pretty weak and Kael’thas’s too-difficult-to-do-but-very-powerful would be perfect. Cho's on the right track with his having such a long cooldown and a cap to stacks from minions.

The other aspect that makes Nasus and Veigar poor is how the damage increase is directly in line with the stacks rather than set at specific milestones. So it rewards mediocrity by still giving us the bonus 30 damage from 30 stacks, even if we should’ve had 50 at that point. We aren’t properly hindered for stacking poorly. And unfortunately this also forces their kits to be entirely revolved around the stacking. Rather than being an optional reward, it’s just a necessity for performing on par mid to late game. (And the ease of stacking from farm instead of battle renders this impossible to change with the current iterations of the abilities)

I don’t really have a solution for the problems presented by current stacking champions, but if more are introduced they need to have more difficult conditions. And if Veigar/Nasus are reworked, they need to either be made more difficult or have their stacking changed heavily to enable easier adjustment of their whole kits. I know there are some who would argue that the stacking is core to the champions, but a core that is unhealthy to the whole is a core that needs to be changed.

9 Comments

FioraWillCarry1 votes

Needing to stack to be relevant presents it's own set of downsides. Nasus for example, even getting his core fast doesn't mean that much if he has no stacks, a disadvantage unique to stacking champions like him. Stacking is an extra hassle to get something other champs naturally get from gold alone.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

No, they get far more than other champs can possibly get from gold alone. Which is the problem.

If we look at the gold value of the damage compared to AD/AP, they get more than any other champion possibly can,. And it's just from doing what everyone else has to do anyway-- farming.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

Yes, and this is fair because if they don't stack competently they get far less than what a typical champ gets from gold alone. It's a fair trade-off. So the counter-play here is to not let them stack.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

It's not, though. Because if they DO stack even half competently, they still get far more. Because they get all the gold from the minions in addition to their stacking.

If they both had passives that lowered income from minions, sure you'd have an argument as far as gold value. But they don't.

You could argue for the difficulty of stacking, but that's nonexistent. Again, it's the same as farming with anyone else.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

I don't play Veigar but Nasus is one of my main champions. I play him a lot and he is extremely easy to oppress. Problem is, most people are either too lazy or too unskilled to do it correctly. Nothing makes me happier as a Nasus player to see a ranged champion or lane bully(Darius, Renekton etc) farming from behind my minions instead of in front of them so he could take 3/4 of my HP when I even attempt to stack. But I have played against such opponents and it's down right oppressive to play against as a Nasus. Not to mention the ones that also freeze the wave in front of their tower every chance they get. Jesus Christ, it's cancer. There is nothing more demoralize that watching your team fight it out in the mid game while you're unable to join because you only have 150 stacks at 20 minutes. All you can do is hope your team can 4v5 for the next 15 minutes while you desperately try to attain an acceptable number of stacks so you actually become a champion. I don't really think Nasus is that good a champion to be honest. He has far too many weaknesses but only when you play against competent players.

I imagine Veigar has similar problems.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

You've presented exactly why it's a problem. If someone doesn't pick a champion with the damage to oppress him, you're happy because the lane becomes insanely easy thanks to the ease of his kit.

But if they do, and simply play them properly, there's nothing you can do.

That's the issue I'm talking about. Their stacking needs to become a bonus to a decent kit, or be removed. Not be the core to a kit that's worthless without it.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

I supposed you do have a point about it the inherent flaws in the stack based design but I've never felt them overpowered. I'm tending towards stacking champions being more under-powered than overpowered. In Nasus' case, I think you're underestimating how many champions can prevent his stacking *when played right. All ranged champions, including mages and all damage heavy bruisers can bully him off the wave from minute 1. The only champions that can't meaningfully contest waves from Nasus are tanks and not even all of them. Sion can bully him for example. Malphite, Poppy and Shen on the other hand, can't really stop him from stacking. He can just ignore them and out-lifesteal their meager damage and stack like they aren't even there.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Not including mages, since they don't have the other stats necessary to go top lane.

And the thing about ignoring them and out-lifestealing, you can definitely do if you just buy one vamp scepter instead of sticking to the same build every game.

FioraWillCarry1 votes

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Not including mages, since they don't have the other stats necessary to go top lane.

Wait till you play against a good Brand who plays like his entire purpose in life is to land Ws on you. Then there's obvious ones like Neeko and Viktor. I think Vlad is the only one that doesn't have enough early damage to force Nasus off waves, at least for me(I back off when he has empowered Qs).

Thing is, when you play champions like these into Nasus, you don't play the typical farm-farm-farm trade or constant hard shove style everyone seems to default to in SoloQ. Instead you will primarily be last hitting with autos only whiles standing constantly at a distance where your abilities can reach him. You almost never use your abilities to farm, only to zone and punish his attempts to farm and stack.

Now this is not to say that a good Nasus player can't overcome it but I suspect only Nasus mains will have the answers to such abusive lane tactics. Everyone else will just greed for stacks, go 0-6 and come on the boards to make threads crying for nerfs to whatever champion stomped them.

Most people don't do this when facing Nasus because it can be a chore and if your champ has weird auto attack animations, farming primarily with autos can be very painful. It's much easier to spam abilities on the wave and shove into him which is exactly what he wants you to do. Even I'm guilty of this. I ban Nasus a lot because I'm just too lazy to micro manage a lane like this for 20 minutes straight. It feels very intense because I'm not used to playing like that. I fuckin hate doing it to be honest.

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