Hecarim and Vi deserved nerfs just as badly if not moreso than Lee Sin
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72 Comments
Critmaster Garen11 voteshere is the problm im having with the situation currently.
yes, hecarim, vi, elise and all those mobile carry junglers without much counterplay to their gapclosing and burst are kindof bullshit.
but how do we really deal with adc without those guys? who will be able to beat long range adc with overloaded self peel kits? assassins arent doing their job well anymore. theyre often actually just getting outbursted by adc in melee lategame.
a talon even dies to caits headshot combo, or 2 draven crits before he gets his own burst off. even some of the assassins that came better out of the reworks have trouble getting through a support with his exhaust.
the only thing that will be able to deal with them at that point are long range burst mages.
Sexy Jack Rabbit5 votesNo one even mentioned Elise? In fact she's UNDERPerforming in-comparison to normal. The new Jungle hurt her severely to the point she has to ignore the Raptors camp first clear, which is very harmful to EXP earned. Her win-rate has dropped to a 46% Win rate from an average of 49%, even across higher Elo's she's underperforming.
Hecarim and Vi are both able to build 1 damage item into Tank and then murder your entire team alongside massive percentage health shields and AOE Heals.
ADC's are garbage at the moment as far as any role goes, and even without Vi and Hecarim in games that is very clear. There are plenty of ways to deal with ADCs atm.
Critmaster Garen7 votesNo one even mentioned Elise? In fact she's UNDERPerforming in-comparison to normal. The new Jungle hurt her severely to the point she has to ignore the Raptors camp first clear, which is very harmful to EXP earned. Her win-rate has dropped to a 46% Win rate from an average of 49%, even across higher Elo's she's underperforming.
Hecarim and Vi are both able to build 1 damage item into Tank and then murder your entire team alongside massive percentage health shields and AOE Heals.
ADC's are garbage at the moment as far as any role goes, and even without Vi and Hecarim in games that is very clear. There are plenty of ways to deal with ADCs atm.
adc are "garbage" because theyre shutdown early by champions like hecarim and vi right now.
theyre still completely over the top when it comes to their lategame scaling due to their kits and itemization.
thats what im saying. you need bullshit to fight bullshit. if we didnt have these divers who come bot to nonstop murder the adc, and blow him up in teamfights, we have the other situation where they regularly scale to a point where nobody can deal with them anymore.
watch the bush3 votesShut the hell up. Late game doesn't exist anymore because of their BS damage and bitch about Lee Sin and how OP he is yet at least he has counter play. What the hell is the counter play to Vi R? Rofl, nothing.
Critmaster Garen8 votes[{quoted}](name=watch the bush,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0NEilYEl,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-24T12:45:48.573+0000)
Shut the hell up.
make me.
you cant.
What the hell is the counter play to Vi R? Rofl, nothing.
youre right. they have low conterplay. what is the counterplay to adc without these guys? whos left to deal with them? because it isnt assassins anymore.
watch the bush3 votes1: You sound like a little brat. "MAKE ME!!! HAHAH!!!" Please, just shut up for your own sake.
There's tons of counter play, if you think the only counter play to an ADC is a point click Vi ultimate then you clearly have no clue how to fucking play this game. I don't blame you though, you fucking main garen so you get kited for days.
Let me tell ya, Malphite, Maokai, properly played Morgana Qs or even flash - blackshield near ADC with team beside her and ult the ADC. Fucking Gnar stuns. There's tons of counterplay to those champs that can also lock down an out of position ADC. I can go on and on, a point click Vi R is not the only hope and solution for what you think is counter play. You're misinformed and really are probably low elo so why are you even in this section?
Oh you say "Low Counterplay" no no no, NO counterplay. Absolutely nothing. She points and clicks her Ultimate onto you and have you no choice but to wait, no other way around it.
Critmaster Garen4 votes[{quoted}](name=watch the bush,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0NEilYEl,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-24T13:04:04.523+0000)
1: You sound like a little brat. "MAKE ME!!! HAHAH!!!" Please, just shut up for your own sake.
this statement in itself makes you sound like a brat. youre going entirely up the wall because youre disagreeing with me. at this point its youre just embarassing yourself.
again. make me shut up. im waiting.
SmileInABox8 votesThis is the dumbest fucking argument. Both of you shut the hell up.
SnakDatSmilesBak1 votesIt's tanks like rammus and malphite
SmileInABox1 votesADC's are garbage because they are shut down by literally everything save a weak enemy ADC. Like, it seriously doesn't matter how fed you are. You'll still get killed by the 0/3 Maokai without him breaking a sweat, you'll still get 1 shot by the Heca with only a Triforce who still takes barely any damage from you, you'll still get rundown by Shyvana or Olaf, and god forbid there's a Syndra or Rengar or LeBlanc in your game. If they so much as look at you you're dead. This "overloaded" self peel you mention is completely non-existent, especially when you consider how much peel it actually takes to save an ADC from this shit.
Critmaster Garen4 votesADC's are garbage because they are shut down by literally everything save a weak enemy ADC. Like, it seriously doesn't matter how fed you are. You'll still get killed by the 0/3 Maokai without him breaking a sweat, you'll still get 1 shot by the Heca with only a Triforce who still takes barely any damage from you, you'll still get rundown by Shyvana or Olaf, and god forbid there's a Syndra or Rengar or LeBlanc in your game. If they so much as look at you you're dead. This "overloaded" self peel you mention is completely non-existent, especially when you consider how much peel it actually takes to save an ADC from this shit.
theyre "garbage" right now because during the lane phase where theyre expected to farm up to hit their item powerspikes, theyre constantly pressured by jungle ganks right now.
the sheer amount of objectives on bot lane makes the team that wins bot lane and gets that first turret blood and drake control the most almost guaranteed to win.
the team that gets first blood turret has around 74% winrate right now.
this means instead of being able to farm up, adc and supports on bot lane are being constantly dived on or somehow involved in skirmishes. this means they have trouble getting their items together before the game snowballs out of control and ends. youll see many games end around the 20 minute mark these days.
tanks and mages are strong by midgame, and adc havent had a chance to hit their powerspikes yet at that point. so yes, youll se a tank being able to 1v1 an adc around that time.
the problem isnt adc or their items being weak, but jungle pressure and snowballing right now.
also, these overlaoded self peel kits DO exist. 
are ridiculous when it comes to their level of self peel.
you can not deal with these champions unless you have someone whos loaded with cc and gap closers to lock them in place long enough to blow them up before they can start disengaging and drain tanking on you. (or in case of vanye just hit e and murder you before you can get her in range a second time)
try playing anyone who doesnt have insane levels of dive ability and cc or burst against tristana or cait and try getting to her. its almost impossible to catch her out of position and kill her by herself, due to the amount of disengages she has on her own.
that is not even counting a shielding support with exhaust at their sides.
Eedat1 votesThey have late scaling but they straight up suck in the early and mid game. They need 3-4 items before really coming online which means they're garbage in this meta where games average under 30 minutes
CasterGilgamesh2 votesNEW 
will take care of any adc problems you have
Chembaron Yamada6 votesAnd they receive them. There is a nerf for Courage of the Colossus on the PBE, which is the main reason why these 2 champions are that strong at the moment. Riot probably wants to see the spot they are sitting in after these changes. If they are still in need of nerfs afterwards, I am pretty sure they will receive them.
And don't act like Lee Sin wasn't too strong please....
salty testi1 votes[deleted]
Chembaron Yamada3 votesLike I said: they will see where these champions are after the nerf to the keystone and if they are still too strong they will receive nerfs.
Which seems like a fair strategy instead of just overnerfing them instantly without even knowing how the upcoming changes are affecting their winrates.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesOkay so from what i read what they are doing to colossus it will be totally shit for tanks as well. So instead of nerfing the abusers they chose to destroy a keystone for its intented users as well. GREAT BALANCE RIGHT THERE. Same thing with fucking deathfire. Instead of nerfing brand, malz and others accordingly to keep it viable as a choice on other mages they nerf it so hard only 4 champs are using it now. I would have loved deathfire on burst mages as well if i'magainst a 2-3 tanks team but it's so laughable no need to take it. Now riot does the same to cotc. Great. Funny enough that they did not ruin warlords and fervor and instead tweaked it enough to keep it viable for adcs and melee adcs. Fucking joke. Typical adc bias riot has but nono riot "hates" adcs hurr durr. Sure guys.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesYou can't really call them abusers since Divers were intended to use this keystone mastery from the start.
Karn Bishop1 votes??? colossus is even stronger at max level if you hit multiple champions like say 3-5 shield wise, something vi cannot do while true tanks can easily do like 
So to me your statement makes no sense since the better users of it will now be mostly tanky aoe champions while single target stun champions will get a very weak shield for 90% of the game.
In fact i guarantee that this patch you will see Vi's primary build shift back into the offense tree with either bloodlust or fervor because the only reason she used it was due to how strong it was early game for ganking.
P4stry1 votesThe shield doesn't scale off of how many enemies you hit, it scales off of how many enemies are around you when you deal the hard cc. What makes it strong is that it gives divers like Vi enough time to dive the back line, proc massive shield, then proceed to delete adc while having enough health to continue fighting for the rest of the team fight.
Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votesTo be fair he never said Lee Sin wasn't strong, he just said Vi and Hecarim needs nerfs more then him, which is true. Even before his nerfs they both had a higher winrate then he did. The argument there was that he wasn't abusing CoTc, he was just blatantly over-tuned, and still is for that matter. Vi and Hecarim on the other hand are way too strong because of their abuse of CotC, Massive Ratios and lack of available counterplay.
AninLegions7771 votesHeca was still strong before CoTC and the nerf to the keystone didn't hit him hard at all
Chembaron Yamada1 votesThere is another nerf for CotC on the PBE and I just say that they are waiting for it to go live before doing further steps.
AninLegions7771 votesI don't want them to gut him. I just don't want to die to a level 3 gank under tower while he walks away with half hp.
Golden Tager X1 votesWith about 3 champs nearby it will be near the same,and with anymore the shield will actually be bigger than before.
Ahristocats5 votes"we nerfed colossus, this is the nerf they need"-meddler
Karn Bishop1 votesWell for vi he is not wrong, with the single target shield boost being so weak now her winrate and playrate should drop off again, before colossus her winrate and play rate was acceptable and after it you see she gets a major spike in both win rate and play rate. So to arrogantly proclaim that Colossus was not the reason for her power spike is rather silly.
Lets also add to that the jungles going to be hitting harder too and i too would be hesitant in nerfing vi without waiting to see what happens.
MrWasjig4 votesLee Sin got a nerf? Oh...I didn't even notice it was so piss weak xD
SwaggyMcGhee4203 votesIt dropped his winrate 2%, which isn't bad considering how much he's played (which also dropped 5%).
Supreme Senpai691 votesProbably dropped by 5% since all the FOTM bandwagoners saw a nerf and bailed lol. 2% is a lot though for winrate, I wonder if something other than the nerf is affecting that.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesWell lee sin is an early game champ. Busted jungle helped him. Jungle nerf on top of the small ult nerf results in 2% winrate loss.
SwaggyMcGhee4201 votes[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0NEilYEl,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-01-24T16:01:18.135+0000)
Probably dropped by 5% since all the FOTM bandwagoners saw a nerf and bailed lol.
That would make the drop in winrate that much more significant, because the FOTM bandwagoners, or the less experienced Lee SIn players were bringing his winrate down, so if they left it would be expected to go up.
2% is a lot though for winrate, I wonder if something other than the nerf is affecting that.
Yeah, the jungle exp nerfs undoubtedly affected Lee's snowball potential.
MrWasjig1 votesI'm not saying I'm not glad he was nerfed, but it was so insignificant that a photo of Riot's board of directors pulling apart their ass cracks would at least be worth noting.
Since other than that, Lee Sin is still the massive pain in the pulled apart ass crack he was before with minimal appreciable difference and that won't stop me from having his ass banned every game. Simply because fuck dealing with that bullshit.
Ysayle3 votesWell, Jungle was nerfed last patch (if I do recall), and CotC is getting a nerf this patch as well. While it may not be enough, I think it's fair to wait and see how those nerfs go through before nerfing the champions directly. (after all, they were brought into the spotlight largely because of CotC and the new jungle)
Ferus and Ferrum3 votesHave you SEEN the colossus nerfs?? The shield is WAY weaker unless there are 4-5 people around, and it's almost non-existent in the 1v1 scenario. The base shield went from [10-180] base value per level + 5% of your max health per nearby enemy champion---> [3-54 per nearby enemy champion] + 5% of your max health per nearby enemy champion And the duration was reduced by 1 second
"While it may not be enough"
Ysayle2 votesWell, I didn't want to seem too affirmative in my post,I myself believe it'll bring them back in line easily, but you never know, there are many more potential factors, and I don't pretend to understand them all.
GayFluffyUnicorn3 votesTypical riot bias. Oh no tanks are actually tanky better nerf the keystone into unviability. Fervor and warlords broken as fuck? Let's keep it like that for the rest of the season. Riot atleast tweaked it so that those keystones are still good on ADCs and worse for renektons and irelias. Instead of the same approach for CotC riot just guts it for no reason. CotC is currently the only thing keeping REAL tanks viable in toplane after this nerf every riven, jayce and yasuo will just shit on every tank toplane once again. Nice.
Sinlaire4 votesHis numbers are wrong. current Colossus nerfs are:
Old; [10-180] flat shield based on level + 5% of maximum health per enemy champion. New; [3-54] based on level per enemy champion + 5% of maximum health per enemy champion.
which means new colossus is much weaker in 1v1, weaker against 2 enemies, breaks even against 3, and has an even stronger shield than live against 4 or more.
so really it just got nerfed for duelists and buffed for real tanks and divers ACTUALLY using it for team engages and not just for free shields in any situation. ie. 
CasterGilgamesh2 votesohh nice so it's still worth using on support tanks
Spice POWAH1 votesWasn't rito planning on nerfing ghost too?
Slimegoon2 votesVi's R should be a skillshot at the very least, just like reworked Warwick.
JVlasterQuinn2 votesProblem with Vi and Hecarim is not them , it's how Courage of the colossus work with them. Courage being hard nerfed on the PBE already so wait till it hit live. You will see less of these two champion, i garantee it. Even Poppy will take a huge kick.
Blåbæret1 votesProblem with Vi and Hecarim is not them , it's how Courage of the colossus work with them. Courage being hard nerfed on the PBE already so wait till it hit live. You will see less of these two champion, i garantee it. Even Poppy will take a huge kick.
Nah, it's the champs. Especially Heca was OP way before Colosuss was even a thing.
Tychusfindlay9191 votesProblem with Vi and Hecarim is not them , it's how Courage of the colossus work with them. Courage being hard nerfed on the PBE already so wait till it hit live. You will see less of these two champion, i garantee it. Even Poppy will take a huge kick.
The courage nerf won't mean much since junglers don't care about laning phase. If you actually look at the courage changes, it's a buff for teamfights involving three or more people, where these two junglers are especially annoying as shit.
JVlasterQuinn1 votesThe courage nerf won't mean much since junglers don't care about laning phase. If you actually look at the courage changes, it's a buff for teamfights involving three or more people, where these two junglers are especially annoying as shit.
Vi ultimate is one person only, the only chance you can hit more than 1 is if you hit their backline and they form a nice line and you knock them aside, other than that, it won't do much. Hec i can understand what you mean but being nerfed by 1 second will hurt them regardless if they jump in the whole team, and who would want to jump in 3+ people alone intentionally ? It's certain death regardless of Courage unless the whole team follow.
Tychusfindlay9191 votesVi ultimate is one person only, the only chance you can hit more than 1 is if you hit their backline and they form a nice line and you knock them aside, other than that, it won't do much. Hec i can understand what you mean but being nerfed by 1 second will hurt them regardless if they jump in the whole team, and who would want to jump in 3+ people alone intentionally ? It's certain death regardless of Courage unless the whole team follow.
read the notes, all she needs to do is cc one person near a bunch of enemies for the full shield. And in teamfights the full shield is actually stronger than live. It's really just a nerf for lane colossus.
JVlasterQuinn1 votesread the notes, all she needs to do is cc one person near a bunch of enemies for the full shield. And in teamfights the full shield is actually stronger than live. It's really just a nerf for lane colossus.
I did read patch, but it's still nerfed by 1 second regardless, 1 second is huge in LoL as it can determine in life or death. Shield is maybe stronger in teamfight but 1 second less is still something. I'm glad lane Courage is nerfed so people like Riven might think twice before using it.
NGNL Asian1 votesHonestly vi gets WAY TOO rewarded rn for getting coc. Passive+coc and she's just to just burst you and still have quite a bit of hp even though 2-3 memembers of your team is focusing her
And A Real Hiero1 votesVi gets way too rewarded for getting coc... Lol.
CKwoka269471 votesA good Twisted fate is very similar to VI. Ult gold card, combo. i don't see anyone saying anything about him.
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