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tanks are bad because of gold acceleration

Moody P··12 votes·7,176 views

tank items have always been balanced as a cheaper power up that works best early and gradually falls off. Gold efficiency has never been their issue; tank items have value beyond gold efficiency because of how they directly reduce the values other people get from their items and kits.

while the fact that things like conqueror and pre revert IE negating your defenses way too soon is an issue, the biggest problem is the fact that ambient gold has gone up and tower plating was introduced, which makes the point that tanks get outscaled much much sooner than it used to be.

Now, in addition to passively gaining more gold which means a lot more for people buying pricey damage items than it does for tank items, lane tanks are punished HARD for the correct playstyle of letting their lane be pushed in so they can farm at turret; getting shoved out of lane at all as a tank is absolutely brutal because you'll get snowballed on harder than ever even of you don't directly feed.

My strong opinion is that ambient gold absolutely needs to be reduced and IMO tower plating gold should not be so high, especially when Demolish exists and any bruiser or ranged bully running resolve second will definitely take it.

33 Comments

The thigh guy5 votes

It also doesn’t help that the anti tank items cost about as much as the tank items themselves.

Last whisper items - 2800 Void staff - 2650 Black cleaver - 3000

Sir Saltarin1 votes

Riot saw that IG vs FNC and G2 were the two shortest Bo5 on Worlds history and said hell yeah I'm gonna increase snowball with these cute Bone Platings to see if next year on Worlds some team beats that record.

Zerdun1 votes

or you can boost early tank item efficiency and fix the problem by touching item numbers instead of adjusting game mechanics. Reducing Ambient gold will only delay the inevitable anyway and i think tweaking some defense numbers on items is way easier to test than fiddling with gold generation mechanics without just scrapping all of them.

On that same note you need to remember that generating gold is 'fun' to the player and feels rewarding. Making the changes your suggesting would remove that aspect of 'fun' while fiddling with tank item gold efficiency will just make tank items better and improve the tank classes as a whole.

Moody P1 votes

Tank items don't need to be stronger.

Alzon1 votes

Because the champions who use the “bully the enemy under their tower and take plating” strategy would then start abusing tank items... again.

Zerdun1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-03-18T18:33:21.903+0000)

Tank items don't need to be stronger.

Give me a reason as to why increasing the tank item gold efficiency from the 80ish % it is now to say 85-90% wouldn't be the better option from a business perspective to solve the problems you claim are effecting tanks?

Its not normally the tank items themselves that provide the problem when we see degenerate tank builds, its often that a class that isn't supposed to build tank items magically gets enough base damage that building anything other than tank items is pointless.

Moody P1 votes

Because better tank item efficiency means that nontanks will use the items better.

The correct solution is to make them cheaper again to rebalance the equilibrium of tanks having cheaper but weaker power spikes and eventually being scaled out by more expensive builders.

Zerdun1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-18T20:42:24.667+0000)

Because better tank item efficiency means that nontanks will use the items better.

The correct solution is to make them cheaper again to rebalance the equilibrium of tanks having cheaper but weaker power spikes and eventually being scaled out by more expensive builders.

Improving tank item efficiency will most likely not have what your considering occur because of how well DPS items currently scale. Sure we may see outliers here and there where it may become good to do so based on the game state but on that same notion that is why the item shop does not already currently limit who can buy what outside of a few items that state they are melee only or have stack multipliers numbers altered if your attacking from melee range. By completely removing these fringe cases of players building tank items your better off just only giving each champion a set of gear that is unique and balanced for the champion's expected role, which would absolutely kill many players' desire to bother / theory craft / test itemization in the first place.

I said to make them more efficient, I said to touch numbers and last I checked gold cost is what is looked at during cost efficiency and in turn is a number. The most likely best way to honestly fix the problem of damage soaks feeling shittier for players in comparison to bruisers is somewhere in between buffing end result defensive modifiers and altering the total cost per item. So thanks for agreeing with me in that gold efficiency should be increased I guess?

Serika Zero1 votes

Tank fizz, do you want tank fizz? Because that's how you get tank fizz.

Zerdun1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-03-19T08:33:43.952+0000)

Tank fizz, do you want tank fizz? Because that's how you get tank fizz.

You get tank fizz when he does enough damage in his BASE KIT to successfully do his job (grey screen priority enemies).

That has NOTHING to do with tank itemization and EVERYTHING to do with champion kit damage being out of line. Last time I checked to fix tank Fizz, Ekko, and Akali they shifted a bunch of his base ability damage scaling to the AP scaling modifier so all of a sudden to do the job as intended you HAVE to build damage items to do damage. Its really not rocket science here.

Serika Zero1 votes

Tank fizz, ekko and others exist when tank items give them enough resistance and damage in order to kill the targets.

If tank items get buffed. Nothing stops fizz for example to just go full tank with item 3025 and sit on your carry till they die. without you being able to kill him despite landing everything.

Ahri Baka1 votes

Wait tanks are bad ? I thought the main complain was Conq , now that's it's nerfed , how are they bad ? they were good before Conq and we all know that

The thigh guy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-18T18:21:54.162+0000)

Wait tanks are bad ? I thought the main complain was Conq , now that's it's nerfed , how are they bad ? they were good before Conq and we all know that

Tanks were shit before conquerer, conquerer just put the 32ed and 33rd nails in the coffin for them.

Ahri Baka2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-18T18:40:55.965+0000)

Tanks were shit before conquerer, conquerer just put the 32ed and 33rd nails in the coffin for them.

I'm pretty sure I remember Tanks were in a good spot before Conquerer the whole " tanks are weak " circle jerk started when Conquerer was released I'm pretty sure I remember the posts here in boards about " why play a Bruiser when you can just play a tank , buy a Tabi and outdamage tanks while being unkillable ? " those posts were actually getting a lot of upvotes

The thigh guy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T18:50:55.417+0000)

I'm pretty sure I remember Tanks were in a good spot before Conquerer the whole " tanks are weak " circle jerk started when Conquerer was released I'm pretty sure I remember the posts here in boards about " why play a Bruiser when you can just play a tank , buy a Tabi and outdamage tanks while being unkillable ? " those posts were actually getting a lot of upvotes

Tanks haven’t been playable since after cinderhulk got gutted.

And now the position is entirely reversed. Bruisers do everything tanks do, but better and then some.

Ahri Baka4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T19:00:04.417+0000)

Tanks haven’t been playable since after cinderhulk got gutted.

And now the position is entirely reversed. Bruisers do everything tanks do, but better and then some.

I don't think we're exactly talking about Tank junglers

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T19:11:17.752+0000)

I don't think we're exactly talking about Tank junglers

The cinderhulk nerfs came in at close to the same time as the ibg and sunfire nerfs. So I was referring to that whole time frame. Ever since then tanks have just been getting bent over. They are just noob traps.

Riot - this champion is a tank! Hard to kill crowd control machines meant to protect the squishier members of your team.

Reality - you feed the bruisers because they are you but with damage.

SuperTopLFBottom1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T19:52:36.195+0000)

The cinderhulk nerfs came in at close to the same time as the ibg and sunfire nerfs. So I was referring to that whole time frame. Ever since then tanks have just been getting bent over. They are just noob traps.

Riot - this champion is a tank! Hard to kill crowd control machines meant to protect the squishier members of your team.

Reality - you feed the bruisers because they are you but with damage.

Why are liers even getting upvoted? Oh yeah it's the boards they LOVE reversing history.

Fact is tanks are such broken abominations we actually had 8 tanks per match just a year ago.

If you feed to a bruiser in lane i don't know what i have to say. Ever thought about looking for a pair of arms at your local pawn shop?

The thigh guy2 votes

{quoted}

Why are liers even getting upvoted? Oh yeah it's the boards they LOVE reversing history.

Fact is tanks are such broken abominations we actually had 8 tanks per match just a year ago.

If you feed to a bruiser in lane i don't know what i have to say. Ever thought about looking for a pair of arms at your local pawn shop?

Found the hashinshin.

Ragnaveil1 votes

I wonder why we did... -looks at ADCs during that time period-

Light Burner1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-18T18:21:54.162+0000)

Wait tanks are bad ? I thought the main complain was Conq , now that's it's nerfed , how are they bad ? they were good before Conq and we all know that

i MaIn TaNk So I cOmPlAiN oN bOaRdS tAnKs ArE bAd To GeT mY cHaMpIoNs BuFfEd :)

Tr4shB4NSYST3M1 votes

Not only that but tanks lose most lane matchups, so their lane opponent will generally have a cs advantage and a better chance at the turret plates, which means their damage items will be on pace or outpacing the tank's items, so the tank who is supposed to have a more powerful midgame spike doesn't even get to utilize that window of power.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Not only that but tanks lose most lane matchups, so their lane opponent will generally have a cs advantage and a better chance at the turret plates, which means their damage items will be on pace or outpacing the tank's items, so the tank who is supposed to have a more powerful midgame spike doesn't even get to utilize that window of power.

One thing about this is that tanks fall off because they lack some kind of EHP amp - Most bruisers have a shield, in combat sustain, or powerful resistance amp that allows them to function AS a tank despite lower resistances. I think proper tanks like Leona and Braum need some kind of ability or no-negative item to GIVE them an effective EHP amp in the form of a shield; Sion and Camille for example function VERY well as tanks explicitly because of their powerful scaling shields. And while People would say item 3190 does this very thing... If youre using locket selfishly youre using it wrong. Putting a 10% HP shield on warmogs that regens with health would be a MASSIVE effectiveness buff to proper tanks, since no bruiser in their right mind would ever buy warmogs. Or just bring back sightstone as a component item for the eye items and give us back the old quest rewards.

Tr4shB4NSYST3M1 votes

Other than Camille as a tank (???????????) i hear what you're saying.

That said, even in competitve, other than supports like braum, alistar, Tahm Kench as well as a couple in the JG Sejuani Zac and the occasional item 1413 JarvanIV , Sion barely even sees play as a Solo lane tank. (not counting solo lane Galio as a tank because he builds AP when he plays from the midlane).

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

Other than Camille as a tank (???????????) i hear what you're saying.

That said, even in competitve, other than supports like braum, alistar, Tahm Kench as well as a couple in the JG Sejuani Zac and the occasional item 1413 JarvanIV , Sion barely even sees play as a Solo lane tank. (not counting solo lane Galio as a tank because he builds AP when he plays from the midlane).

Have you never seen Camille? item 3078 item 3053 item 3748 item 3047 item 3026 with her shield passive, she functions pretty well as a tank. Most bruisers do.

Sejauni has her passive and in high ELO play is mostly used for her ult engage. Zac is used in coordinated play... ... Jarvan and sion are bruisers and have shields. Galio has a shield too (albiet a magic shield).

Minimac20001 votes

{quoted}

Have you never seen Camille? item 3078 item 3053 item 3748 item 3047 item 3026 with her shield passive, she functions pretty well as a tank. Most bruisers do.

Sejauni has her passive and in high ELO play is mostly used for her ult engage. Zac is used in coordinated play... ... Jarvan and sion are bruisers and have shields. Galio has a shield too (albiet a magic shield).

Galio is irrelevant lol

Sir Saltarin2 votes

Yeah he's only a Tier S supp on pro play, irrelevant.

The thigh guy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-19T09:42:26.317+0000)

Yeah he's only a Tier S supp on pro play, irrelevant.

You are not a pro. Pro play and average play are two very different things.

Iota Theta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0MMuw5b2,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-19T09:42:26.317+0000)

Yeah he's only a Tier S supp on pro play, irrelevant.

And even then, the proplay I've seen from him, he doesn’t build straight tank, but rushed Redemption because...umm...idk why all the pro tanks supports are rushing Redemption.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

Would reducing Tower Plating gold from 160 to 100 be a solution?

What other sources of "ambient gold" are you seeing being a problem?

Minimac20001 votes

I disagree, imo tank items are just bad because they don't have the stats to compete. Not to mention the fact that most other classes build single items that just flat out ignore half-75% of any items they build anyway, so it's really more of a systemic problem than a "just slow gold down" or "just add more resists to tank items" kind of thing. Also off topic, but the fact that Vayne is the undisputed best adc is a problem considering tanks are currently the least played and weakest they have ever been

ArtumisPrime1 votes

I disagree. It's not like tanks were getting more gold before (except maybe during HoG, Philo Stone, Kage's Lucky Pick era) and are suddenly now in a defecit relative to the other roles.

The problem is also not necessarily that tank items are too weak--although they have definitely been weakened while damage sources have increased in power--even though this definitely is a factor.

The largest problem is the mastery system. Before Keystones circa season 6, runes gave small, flat (or even smaller, scaling) stats. The meta was to stat defensively with these, for most champions. Armor yellows, MR blues, often health Quints, etc. Then masteries were also just minute bonuses. E.G. 5% increased attack damage, +16 AP at level 18, etc. Now, "runes" (masteries) reforged give massive damage bonuses. Electrocute, for example, is a 40% AD ratio...which is absurdly higher than 5%.

Additionally, defensive masteries used to be reasonable defensive counterparts. The resolve tree used to give actual defensive options...like +5% bonus armor/MR, +3% max HP, and so forth. Nowadays it's mostly damage. Do more damage and gain max HP, do more damage for CCing someone, do more damage when shielded, do more damage to towers. It's ridiculous. Half the DEFENSIVE tree is more damage.

The other problem is how items have evolved over the years. There are a lot of interesting items in the game now...but damage items have become far more powerful relative to their defensive counterparts. Particularly in one area. And, that is penetration. The amount of shred/pen in the game right now is just bonkers.

TL;DR -- In summary, damage up + too much penetration, defenses down, runes reforged and keystone masteries suck balls.

Cosnirak1 votes

I think you're at least mostly correct about some of the problems that are resulting in many tanks being weak, though there are other contributing factors as well, but I disagree with your proposed solution. It's all way too complex to just cut gold generation and call it fixed. The gold was increased for a reason.

Tanks are in fact quite good still, but their usefulness has narrowed. Their team fighting is still typically worth while. But getting to that stage in decent shape is a struggle. Nerfing non tanks is super complex and is likely to have unwanted and unforeseen consequences. It's hard to buff tanks without causing some other problem (tanks doing too much damage, non tanks abusing tank items, tanks being unkillable, ect.).

I think the best way to buff tanks is by buffing specific abilities in their kits to better reward them for skilled mechanical and tactical play. We don't want to make tanks too mechanics reliant though or else they become like Azir/Kalista/Ryze, so this can only get us so far, but there are a number of tanks who this could help.

Aside from that some tanks could use minor buffs to their early game tankiness stats to help them get through lane in better shape. Relatedly, a few bruisers and items they use are a bit too strong right now and could use some nerfs (Jax, Riven, maybe some others). Won't go into exactly what to nerf on them though, as that's its own big discussion. And finally, yeah some systematic stuff could use minor nerfs. In particular, % penetration items and runes (again, too large a topic to go into detail here).

But I think it's really important to realize that ALL of these things need to be changed, ideally around the same time, and most of them by only small amounts. If Riot were to say attempt to bring the worst tanks to a balanced state by just buffing them directly first it would end up with them being overpowered if Riot eventually got around to addressing the other stuff. And runes in particular they have to be very careful with because it's kind of like messing with gold generation, it affect everyone and can easily have unintended and unwanted consequences, though there are likely at least a couple runes that could be changed without much risk.

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