It feels like Riot and the community have very different ideas of "unfair" mechanics.

Shadow Gilgamesh··52 votes·9,530 views

A lot of times when riot nerfs something that doesn't seem to be readily apparent as OP they say things like "hidden power", these like, hit a button and you're better abilities like Warwick W, which got nerfed by almost half it's duration, Taric's W aura and team wide steroid on ult (both also nerfed a while back), etc. skills with low interactivity whose effects may not be readily apparent to the untrained eye.

But whenever I see people complaining about a mechanic on the boards or elsewhere, it's not "hidden power" it's power that is inherently low on counterplay. % max HP true damage on Vayne for just auto attacking Long or frequent periods of untargetable via the pool of tears and troll poll on Vladimir and Fizz Or mobility that still has very little direct counter other than "pick someone with mobility too", you can use your mobility to be gone long before Taric stun hits you due to low missile speed or dodge all the CC that's been reworked into skillshots.

The things the community finds to be unbalanced are things that are apparent and clear on what is happening, and it FEELS skillful to use, but when you're on the other end of it, there's very little you can actually do. % max HP true damage can't be itemized against, except for attack speed slows on the armor items that do nothing to mitigate the true damage's actual damage. The troll poll and such are effected by what, DoTs applied before using the skill and tethers applied before activation? The only counters to all the mobility are toxic in their own right and complained about too, such as Annie's stun Tibbers with no warning, Ryze's perma root, etc. Other than these, the answer is usually "just CC them before they can do anything" which would be fine if these kinds of issues weren't so common, you don't have the CC every game to keep 3 or 4 of the 5 opposing team from moving while you 100-0 them, that happens once in a blue moon.

This has led to patch after patch of things being nerfed that didn't seem like all that big of deals, while idea after idea is pitched to deal with the problems players want to see fixed and see nothing in return. I've seen untargetable can get hit by AOE moves. I've seen make all CC work like Veigars new cage where the second you get CCed you drop dead in your tracks, even if mid dash. I've seen the idea of a CC specifically to stop mobility, cripple. I'm thankful that there's been a burst of feedback from Riot, so I felt like now was the time to make this post, since it doesn't seem like it'll just fall on deaf ears.

110 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir60 votes

I'm actually not sure our definitions of unfair are all that different, because a lot of the stuff you described as unfair is unfair when considered in isolation. Champions should be allowed to do unfair individual things if they are exciting and fun so long as the full package they're bringing to the game is not unfair. Vlad pool is unfair on its own, but its cooldown and cost are intended to come at some consequence to him when he uses it.

The examples of Warwick W and Taric W aren't so much unfair as they're just not satisfying for how much power they're actually giving, so more often than not it can be good to emphasize the power of champion kits in areas that are more appreciable.

This may not be how everyone feels, and please do correct me if I'm alone, but when I'm playing a champion, I (as a player) don't want to be fair. I want to feel powerful and cheap as all hell but actually be balanced.

Troy24262117 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually not sure our definitions of unfair are all that different, because a lot of the stuff you described as unfair is unfair when considered in isolation. Champions should be allowed to do unfair individual things if they are exciting and fun so long as the full package they're bringing to the game is not unfair. Vlad pool is unfair on its own, but its cooldown and cost are intended to come at some consequence to him when he uses it.

The examples of Warwick W and Taric W aren't so much unfair as they're just not satisfying for how much power they're actually giving, so more often than not it can be good to emphasize the power of champion kits in areas that are more appreciable.

This may not be how everyone feels, and please do correct me if I'm alone, but when I'm playing a champion, I (as a player) don't want to be fair. I want to feel powerful and cheap as all hell but actually be balanced.

I'm totally fine with a skill like Vayne's % max health true dmg ignoring counterplay. She's supposed to be a tank shredder, so obviously tanks SHOULDN'T be able to completely negate that.

The caveat is, when a champion has a skill with inherently low counterplay, they NEED counterplay elsewhere in their kit that can be punished.

ZephyrDrake12 votes

{quoted}

I'm totally fine with a skill like Vayne's % max health true dmg ignoring counterplay. She's supposed to be a tank shredder, so obviously tanks SHOULDN'T be able to completely negate that.

The caveat is, when a champion has a skill with inherently low counterplay, they NEED counterplay elsewhere in their kit that can be punished.

she has no waveclear, short range, is squishy and AS slows hurt her a lot

Rundus118 votes

{quoted}

she has no waveclear, short range, is squishy and AS slows hurt her a lot

Her range is hardly short enough to cause concern thanks to her mobility, she had various defensive mechanics in her kit (q,e, ulted q invis) and builds lifesteal first, she also builds AS first usually (Bork) and has her w to help with clearing minions faster. Also, her ability to chase down enemies indefinitely make AS slows a little less effective in 1v1 or even 2v1 scenarios. Sure, she has weaknesses, but none so great that you can capitalize on them without having 2+ assassins, an oracles, and a tank with frozen heart plus some CC just for her late game. Then you just have to go in and hope her team can't punish you for having to focus her down or keep you off of her. If they can, well there's not much that can stop her from shredding your entire team, starting with the full tank Braum trying to shield an ally that she 6 shot.

Thryale6 votes

all of the what? 2 atkspd slows available to ppl to buy? And from the looks of it, riot seems to be phasing out atkspd slows from champ kits over time. it's only a matter of time before nasus loses his. :/

Meeks0112 votes

Come on guys, it's only like 6000 gold and two slots spent to counter one champion.

windwolf7771 votes

Well, to play devil's advocate a little bit, it doesn't just help vs her, but it also helps vs the rest of her team too. (Honestly I would just remove the flat true damage, and think she's only being played because of the more tanky champs being played but that's just me as a somewhat Vayne main)

Meeks0111 votes

Yeah, Veigar's burst will be significantly reduced once you get those two items. Soraka will become useless, jungle Sejuani won't do shit, and Nasus hasn't left top yet.

windwolf7771 votes

I'm sorry I don't understand what you're saying? I'm going to reply to you as if I think you're arguing she has a team (Not trying to be an ass I am legit confused)

Yes, it is a team game? Your point being? With those points what's not to assume that your team is Ezreal mid, Draven ad, Nami supp, Amumu jung, and Sion top? Mid and AD make Nasus work harder to itemize, Amumu can gank before Sejuani can, Sion can make life miserable for Nasus , Draven can bully Vayne out, Nami can catch Vayne in a bubble and empower Draven axes. Ezreal can just burst Vayne down. This is a team game. Why assume your team is useless? (I mean, I could name a worse matchup for Nasus but I'm not too familiar with top so Sion was the first one that came to my mind)

(And why Sorakka? Why not something like Nami, Lulu, or another support? First one that came to your mind?)

Meeks0111 votes

Except that like most of all games are not draft pick. It isn't that easy.

windwolf7771 votes

Possibly save your pick for last? However I do see your point in this. That post was a combination of a what if and possible ways to deal with her. Sorry about that

T RexHasTinyArms2 votes

Except she has fairly average range for many ADCs. It may be a disadvantage vs poke lanes, but in team fights where ADCs become more reliant on auto's and skills become about peel and mobility, Vayne really isn't any less risky than many of the ADCs currently and has 2 forms of peel and maneuverability before considering cases that her ult can help out w/ staying safe.

At least that's what I've been lead to believe about her numbers. I'd have to check ranges to make sure, but I'm not an ADC main and I'm lazy.

RiotRiotRepertoir8 votes

when a champion has a skill with inherently low counterplay, they NEED counterplay elsewhere in their kit that can be punished.

I totally agree. They need a clear path to success against them despite their low counterplay element(s).

Zhugan6 votes

They why was Vayne given a kit that makes her a great duelist with one item AND flat true damage + % health true damage? That literally means that the "counterplay" to Vayne is bringing enough people to kill her that she can't kite/dodge them all. Which would be a great example of counterplay if that didn't work against literally every champion in the game.

hmmmmmmmm1 votes

In competitive play she isn't even that good of a pick. Her early game is very weak and she is very short ranged. Even if she has mobility to get to her targets that also means that the enemies are closer to her. Her late game is nothing compared to AOE basic attack Jinx.

Zhugan3 votes

I didn't say that I think Vayne is overpowered. I think on a pure numbers basis a good argument could be made that Vayne is balanced numbers wise.

But a champion with balanced numbers can still have a broken kit. Vayne pretty much perfectly fits that bill. Because of how Vayne's kit works she is allowed to melt squishies with her two bonkers AD steroids, and she's allowed to melt tanks with her percent health true damage (which I've seen deal up to 40% of my hp before). And, for some unthinkable reason there is insane synergy between those two things because her AD steroids are so big that she can itemize way more attack speed than normal for an ADC without losing significant damage. All while being one of the best duelist in the game.

She should get to pick one of those choices, maybe two, but definitely not all three. Which means that, regardless of numbers, her kit is broken.

fractalfantasies1 votes

{quoted}

They why was Vayne given a kit that makes her a great duelist with one item AND flat true damage + % health true damage? That literally means that the "counterplay" to Vayne is bringing enough people to kill her that she can't kite/dodge them all. Which would be a great example of counterplay if that didn't work against literally every champion in the game.

Her teamfights are weaker than many of the teamfighting potential of other ADC's.

Zhugan1 votes

... Name those ADCs... Seriously, though, name them. I'm really interested to know what ADCs (other than Kalista and Jinx for fairly obvious reasons) that can out teamfight Vayne.

One thing to be clear about here: safer =/= better. Being safer is part of a champion's utility in teamfighting, along with damage, peel, kiting, CC, etc.

I could go through the entire list of ADCs and why she is at least in the top half of teamfighting ADCs if for no other reason than she has so much peel for herself combined with her steroids that let her deal as much damage with less AD, which means when she gets her big AD/crit items she hits like some sort of titan.

However, I find it silly that you'd argue a champion that gets a 90 ms boost to chase enemies, a 2 second cd stealth dash (that's also a 50% damage steroid for her next attack), a 70 AD steroid, a slow on autos (let's be real, she'll have red buff), a knock-back/stun, and % max hp true damage is bad at teamfights just because they "only" have 550 range.

She can close gaps, create gaps, kill tanks, kill squishies, and has the ability to fairly easily dodge skillshots. That is a champion that is at least good at teamfighting when played well, and likely terrifying in teamfights if the enemy team makes so much as a single mistake when trying to kill Vayne in a teamfight.

fractalfantasies1 votes

{quoted}

... Name those ADCs... Seriously, though, name them. I'm really interested to know what ADCs (other than Kalista and Jinx for fairly obvious reasons) that can out teamfight Vayne.

One thing to be clear about here: safer =/= better. Being safer is part of a champion's utility in teamfighting, along with damage, peel, kiting, CC, etc.

I could go through the entire list of ADCs and why she is at least in the top half of teamfighting ADCs if for no other reason than she has so much peel for herself combined with her steroids that let her deal as much damage with less AD, which means when she gets her big AD/crit items she hits like some sort of titan.

However, I find it silly that you'd argue a champion that gets a 90 ms boost to chase enemies, a 2 second cd stealth dash (that's also a 50% damage steroid for her next attack), a 70 AD steroid, a slow on autos (let's be real, she'll have red buff), a knock-back/stun, and % max hp true damage is bad at teamfights just because they "only" have 550 range.

She can close gaps, create gaps, kill tanks, kill squishies, and has the ability to fairly easily dodge skillshots. That is a champion that is at least good at teamfighting when played well, and likely terrifying in teamfights if the enemy team makes so much as a single mistake when trying to kill Vayne in a teamfight.

If you can get either Kog or Twitch as well as the 2 you mentioned to late game, they all have better teamfights than her.

Equally post rework sivir occasionally gets out of control too.

Zhugan1 votes

That just leaves 4 ADCs, out of a long list of ADCs, that are hypothetically better than Vayne in teamfights.

And she is one of the two best duelist amongst ADCs. And has a weak, but SAFE laning phase.

She shouldn't get to be all of those things.

lB2kGRlc8y4 votes

I don't feel that logic was applied to Veigar's gutting, since his stun had many built in counters and was his only means to land dark matter or self peel. That alone was what broke him, but the ultimate nerf and the Q rework just removed the reward for skillful play from Veigar, replacing it with 100% reliability on the enemy tripping up.

Anidan6 votes

Just to ask: What were the built in counters to Veigar's cage? People like to say items like Banshee's don't get to count, because that's counter-building, not counter-play. So, removing an item that blocks an unforeseen spell, what counter was there to a Veigar within about 1000 range just dropping a stun on you much more frequently than Annie's Tibbers and for much longer duration? There was no reliable action the enemy could take against his stun. It was pretty absurd if you actually remember being on the receiving end of it as well, especially from a support Veigar who only had to use it to peel or just CC a vital target, without having to worry so much about how he'd get to the target himself.

The ult nerf is uniformly bad, though, that's because nerfs are bad things, usually. The Q rework though.. doesn't that now reward him even more for skillful play? It allows you to potentially kill 2 minions per Q, which isn't too likely, I understand, or kill a minion while harassing the enemy champion at the same time, which is much more likely than the boards have led me to believe. That sounds more rewarding for skill than a point-and-click "+1 AP or harass" to me.

What skillful play was there to be seen from someone who only had 1 hard to land ability, which could be made negligibly easy to land by landing a fairly easy stun (gonna be honest: I barely even played Veigar but still had a very high chance of landing that stun by making sure the edge was on the champion, it was incredibly easy), paired with 2 point-and-click abilities? That sounds like the type of kit that most people complain about, to be honest.

So I guess that brings me to another question: Was he actually fine or are people wanting to say he was fine because they want what they once had unchanged? Was he actually healthy or are people just saying he was because of how much power budget was in his stun therefore it deserved to feel like it was broken?

Because from what I remember, during both the boards and forums, there were a lot of complaints about the stun. It was pretty unanimously agreed upon that his stun was pretty damn bullshit to play against. A Veigar that knew what he was doing (or at least knew how to land the stun anyway) could make the game much more miserable for one or two players than any Riven or Vayne I've ever seen.

air tiger3 votes

Baiting was, and is, a huge counterplay tactic for Veigar's cage.

I'm not QQing over the changes, I think he's in a decent to below avg spot (relative to your elo, gets worse as you climb). Could be better.

Champion Skin2 votes

The thing was that against most assassins and such Veigar couldn't just hold onto his cage he had to use it actively or he risked getting instantly blown up the moment they got in range (and no it isn't actually instant it had a 0.25 seconds delay) and if the enemy juked and backed off Veigar would be without his stun and highly vulnerable

Also if Veigar is trying to use it offensively... well given his short ranges he usually have to walk towards his target which kind of gives it away

Angry Monster2 votes

This may not be how everyone feels, and please do correct me if I'm alone, but when I'm playing a champion, I (as a player) don't want to be fair. I want to feel powerful and cheap as all hell but actually be balanced.

I play tanks,true tanks aka naut, leo, ect so i never feel the way you do. Since my champs are usually the hated children of riot, no ever seriously thinks they are unfair ever.

aperson15 votes

Personally I prefer the opposite. I want to feel like I outplayed the opponent not because I pressed my buttons in the right order to delete them, nor because I put them in a lose-lose situation with one of my abilities, but because I could predict his moves and outplay them with that knowledge. It's the difference between waiting in a bush waiting for your opponent to blow an ability to CS faster allowing you to go in on them, and waiting in a bush because you know you can go in on them when they go near the minion wave regardless of their CDs.

Most balance changes and reworks recently have been really good about this, but a few of the latest champion releases not so much (looking at you, Kalista!).

Nameless Voice2 votes

Agreed. Playing champions who seem "fair" feels more satisfying to do well with and are much more fun to play against for the enemy.

Retnus5 votes

I think fair is a subjective view, to be honest. I can think of a series of examples that would feel unfair in comparison to the ones mentioned in the original post, but that may be just my point of view. For one, I've never had issues with Vladimir's pool, since like you mentioned, it has a hefty cost for using it, along with a sharp cooldown. Even Annie's combo doesn't bother me, and I typically main characters that can easily be destroyed in a blink of an eye. I do hate the sheer carry potential Vayne has, but that's her character by nature.

Thing is though...the only real issue that doesn't feel "fair" at all is Fizz. Sure, his escape is also a nuke/slow, but the cost gets outweighed by the sheer power it offers on such a short cooldown. Sure he offers high levels of fun for the player, but his opponent deals with a VERY high level of frustration at any point beyond lvl 5. His kit as a whole feels detrimental to the feeling of the game, at least in my eyes. Question is, how could you fix that without gutting him?

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

Vlad pool is unfair on its own, but its cooldown and cost are intended to come at some consequence to him when he uses it.

did you intentionaly dodge fizz ?

a champion who needs 1 second to burst you down and can wait the entire cooldown of his troll pole under the safety of zhonyas

The entire package of what fizz contributes is purely unfair ... mainly for the reason that whatever possibilities you get of dealing with him are patched by other areas of his kit or items

i once saw a fizz misplay ... he ate a cc when he was alone ... so 2 of our carries ... one was me ... we just unloaded on him ... troll pole with 200 hp op. .. and the thing is that he still competed to the next teamfight with no hp ... just stood a little back to be safer but our capability to kill him was still barely existent while he carried most of the teams damage

Stars Shaper8 votes

Isn't it then unfair because not satisfying for Mordekaiser to lose 1/3 of his tools if he chooses solo lane which in pure coincidence is his "get hp back" tool too?

Also sorry but Annie stun and Ryze permaroot don't have downfalls at all. It would be like Morde saving his ghost in is poke(ball) untill he has pushed to the objective or the teamfight has started. Like if Xerath ultimate's shot were on charge and not just "shoot them all in the small ulti time window".

Something that really brings frustration in this community is the application of double standards.

Outside of performance, why is Akali able to have: mobility, stealth, burst, short CDs, no health nor mana costs, slow and sustain while Morde can't have half of them?

Why All other Juggernauts have been reformed into being more solid in solo lanes while still be totally fine (if not better) in team while Morde has been relegated into a Support's Support?

HeeroTX2 votes

{quoted}

This may not be how everyone feels, and please do correct me if I'm alone, but when I'm playing a champion, I (as a player) don't want to be fair. I want to feel powerful and cheap as all hell but actually be balanced.

I may be in the minority, but this is actually the exact OPPOSITE of how I want to feel. I don't want my champ to be at a big handicap, but I also don't WANT to play a champ that seems broken as all hell. I want to think I beat my opponent because I am better than them, not because the champion I selected is stronger (balanced or no). In fact, I PERSONALLY love mirror matches, so that I KNOW if I win it was because I played my champ better since I know my opponent is playing the same one.

But then, I also GENUINELY feel bad if the opposing team is down a man and as an ADC main I even spent the front end of a game slow playing farm rather than bull-rushing the enemy ADC when their support was afk/dc for the first 10 mins of a game. While I want to win, I don't get ANY satisfaction from feeling like a BULLY, and frankly, if Riot thinks that their playerbase does (or should) enjoy that feeling, then maybe that's a big reason the playerbase is so toxic.

Vekkna4 votes

But what about when the package is unfair? MasterYi

Joquan1 votes

No offense but complaints about master yi is more of a personal problem.

If he's destroying everything in your elo you need to build properly, I mean no harm but you have ninja tabi and spectre cowl on leona, instead of a locket.

You may also need to play peeling supports such as alistar or janna.

Vekkna4 votes

I was getting owned by a blitz, so I was trying to rush a item 3102 . But don't get me wrong, I know nothing about Leona and only picked her that game because I (mistakenly) gave into bullying from the adc. My problems with MasterYi honestly have nothing to do with one game on a champ I had never played (and suck at, tbh). His kit is just objectively bloated as fuck compared to other assassins not named Nidalee. But I appreciate the effort to comb through my history for a horrible game to discredit my point without bothering to engage it.

Some examples of unnecessary power: Meditate 50% turret damage reduction. Meditate damage reduction. Meditate +% healing. Ulti duration. True damage. Untargetability. Immunity to slows. Takedown CDR and on-hit CDR.

He's just a ball of stacked offensive bonuses, defensive bonuses, and diving safety rolled into one package. Nearly every game I see him in results in some absurdity. LIke R > Q to delete a squishy, then proceed to Q on a 1-3 second cooldown through the rest of the team. If he gets in trouble, he just runs into some fog to heal for 800 hp (on a 10-sec CD, natch!) before running back in to finish the job. Behind your turret? No problem for him!

The combination of healing, damage reduction, insane CDR snowball, uncounterable speed (for most champs), and on-hit effects is the definition of an overloaded kit. It's like an unholy hybrid of Irelia and Katarina that you can't target before you've already lost.....but faster, with more crits, and with a Devourer.

Joquan2 votes

He is supposed to be a melee adc. His job is to wreck shit. Every melee ADC has a way to not get messed up. Trynd: Ult, Heal, Dash. Irelia: CC Reduction, Heal. Yasuo, Shields, Dashes, Wind Wall. Master yi: Meditate Fiora: Before ( untargetable) Now: Dashes ( and many of them)

I mean no harm to you but master yi is in no way overpowered. You claim he is a monster ( which he is) but even in late game teamfights he only breaks even in winrate http://champion.gg/champion/MasterYi

The key to dealing with master yi is CC and then blow him up. Same way you deal with any melee ADC. and if you cry " Why do i need CC for master yi"? Then go to any assassin ( hi leblanc and kat) and see what happens with no cc.

Trash ADC Btw3 votes

They could also try building Thornmail and a Banshee's Veil. Counteract the magic damage from Devourer, prevent initiations, reflect damage. Works better with a taunt tho.

Meeks0111 votes

As Nunu I was dying in 1.5 seconds to Yi. I bought a Thornmail then I died in 1 second.

You have to build against current health damage, true damage, 1000 physical damage per hit, and magic damage.

Joquan2 votes

I mean you no harm and I know how this sounds, but I just looked at your recent builds, you would be much better off if you took a quick look at some mobafire guides.

Meeks0112 votes

I know how it looks... Essence Reaver on Miss Fortune, but hear me out: I need that shit.

Guinsoo's on Irelia, Karma, and Ekko 3 games in a row. Oops. But I did great those games, you see? And full AP Sejuani is the best Sejuani. Full tank Lulu is much better than AP, her scalings are shit. Rushing Warmog's means you have double the health of your opponents.

Full AP Skarner, I was thrust into support at the time and we had a really bad game. Burst Poppy OP, 2000 damage one Q. 6 Tears Darius, the potential man. Karma jungle has some seriously good sustain, ganks, and clears. Miss Fortune jungle two games in a row with Devourer, Guinsoo's, and Sorcerer shoes... that's hard to explain.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

though still these mechanics often end up with very binary Champs that very well are unfair 50% of the time and hardcountered the other 50% (or oppressive when ahead and useless when behind like Akali)...

AmazingGoat8 votes

I actually think the difference largely comes down to the fact that:

(1) many players are frustrated by kits which become oppressive when ahead, while (2) Riot seems more concerned with kits which provide lots of power in an otherwise even game.

Fizz, Vayne, Annie, Vlad, etc. are all totally fine if they aren't ahead, but once they get a lead and begin to snowball, they are oppressive and it feels massively unfun to play against them. Riot is totally okay with the concept of snowball champions. The reality is that some champions snowball incredibly easily with a lead, while others are only slightly stronger when ahead.

On the other hand, some champions have abilities that are incredibly strong even when even or down in gold. These abilities frequently offer hidden power that may completely determine an otherwise even game. Taric's armor aura or Warwick's ability to single handedly neuter an enemy carry are both abilities that don't require many resources to be incredibly effective. These are the abilities Riot seems to be more concerned about. In reality, these probably are the type of abilities that have a bigger impact on more games, as champs with these abilities frequently do tend to have a higher win rate than champs with great snowball ability, but these champions generally don't feel oppressive in the same way that a fed Annie does.

All of that being said, I personally think there is still something wrong with champions that feel too oppressive when ahead. The reality is that most of League's player base isn't playing in high level play where deaths are less frequent, and it is very common for snowball champions to start snowballing. When a snowball champion gets fed off one bad enemy laner, the power fantasy of these snowball champions has a significant negative impact on the play experience of every other player on that enemy team. In my opinion, this is what breeds lots of toxicity. When the enemy Annie or Fizz gets a couple of solo kills early on your mid laner, there isn't really any light at the end of the tunnel in most games.

Champions who are very oppressive when ahead create a culture of blame which undermines team play. Rather than try to figure out how to win, because it seems hopeless, many teams instead resort to calling out a player for having "fed" the oppressive champion. This obviously breeds toxicity.

Further, however, champions who are very oppressive when ahead also sometimes have a negative impact on the players who play them. The power fantasy of these champions frequently devolves into being able to walk around the map with impunity and kill anyone they encounter, even 1v2ing or 1v3ing at times. Players who experience this power fantasy, or players who watch it spin out, or who are forced to try to deal with it, frequently draw the wrong conclusions and mistakenly view this as core to the league experience. These experiences are what spawn the "carry" mentality, where players start to believe they have to single handedly carry games or else they are going to lose. This leads players to start to feel that if an enemy player is snowballing, the game is over, and they stop playing. Some players take it further and begin to feel like if they give up even a slight lead, they aren't going to be able to carry, and thus aren't going to be able to win.

Trash ADC Btw3 votes

You hit the nail RIGHT on the head. Thank you very kindly for your perfect summation of exactly the situation. slowclaps

Rammus This humble Rammus main thanks you. I try to turn around losing games, personally... but that's the job of a tank.

Sire Hippington2 votes

The examples of Warwick W and Taric W aren't so much unfair as they're just not satisfying for how much power they're actually giving, so more often than not it can be good to emphasize the power of champion kits in areas that are more appreciable.

I really don't like riots thinking here. Yes, most players probably don't apreiciate those kind of skills and are unstatisfyed with it, but not all. I for one really apreaciate those 'hidden powers' and feel good about useing them. Not everychamp/kit has to be appealing for the majority, it's totally ok to have champs with a rather low playerbase.

By discardeing the concept off buffs on a greater scale, you limit your options for uinque and interesting kits. The Garrenrework for example, the vilian passive doesn't feel fitting, it feels kinda forced for the sake of a unique mechanic. It's lossly tied to the katarina stuff in hi lore, but not really reflects who he is as a character in any way. He'S the primexample of the demacian army ans spirit, his an inspiereing idol, fearlessly leading any charge. Haveing some abillitys to bolster his allies(W granting some defenseive boost on aoe, decicive strike granting a small aoe speedboost, ult granting some aoe buff if succesfully executing an enemie) would perfectly reflect him as 'inspiereing idol' while giving him an unique niche as 'buffing juggernaut', bossting his team while beeing a tanky frontline guy leading the charge.

p.s. i would argue that vlad as a full package is unfair, you can't avoid any damage, he outsustains all and everything past revolver+level 7, he can clear waves with ease, he can counter burst/cc and even toweraggro with his pool...if you can't out stat him(which is hard todo vs a champ that is prettymuch 100% stats with nearly no utillity), all you can do is avoid him or outrange him. Playing vs vlad in many matchups simply is a really, really poor experience, where are no windows to use, he can hold his W back and else he has no cds, he will never really be on low health, he can't miss a skill...definitly one of the worst designs in league.

Puppet33r2 votes

It is not satisfying at all. especially being on the receiving side of all this. Spellshields of Sivir Nocturne are satisfying and can be played around(baited out), Fiora's new w is satisfying because all of those require perfect timing and skill to use. But those "become invulnerable at a touch of a button" are mundane and frustrating to play against.

Old Man Teeto2 votes

"Unfair to an extent"

Ryze's perma W was beyond that limit.

However, Kalista's perma hop mobility is acceptable.

fractalfantasies1 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually not sure our definitions of unfair are all that different, because a lot of the stuff you described as unfair is unfair when considered in isolation. Champions should be allowed to do unfair individual things if they are exciting and fun so long as the full package they're bringing to the game is not unfair. Vlad pool is unfair on its own, but its cooldown and cost are intended to come at some consequence to him when he uses it.

The examples of Warwick W and Taric W aren't so much unfair as they're just not satisfying for how much power they're actually giving, so more often than not it can be good to emphasize the power of champion kits in areas that are more appreciable.

This may not be how everyone feels, and please do correct me if I'm alone, but when I'm playing a champion, I (as a player) don't want to be fair. I want to feel powerful and cheap as all hell but actually be balanced.

+1

This board complains far too much, honestly I am really happy with Riot's direction.

Vayne's W, Kalista's passive and all the wizardry Riven can do just means that those champion's kits have been balanced around these powerful factors. It's more fun to have a champion with clear strengths and weaknesses rather than too many all rounders.

Nameless Voice9 votes

While I agree on the general point you are making, I disagree with your examples where you talk about Vlad and Fizz.

You talk about Vlad's pool and Fizz's trollpole both being really unfair abilities, but they are actually counterexamples of each other. Vlad is a champion with relatively low burst but high sustained damage, who is meant to survive for a long time during fights, continuing to deal damage. Because of that, his pool allows hit to maybe get an extra two spells off during a fight where he might otherwise be killed, or maybe allows him to dodge some high-impact spells or escape a gank. On the other hand, this skill has a huge cost to Vlad - 20% of his health and a massive cooldown.

Meanwhile, Fizz in a champion who can instantly kill you if you get close to him. He has massive amounts of burst damage. His trollpole has a much, much shorter cooldown and merely a mana cost to use, which means that he can deal massive burst damage and then become untargetable to avoid any repercussions for his risk move; he also gets to wait for his cooldowns in safety, and his individual skills are much more impactful than Vlad's once he gets them back up.

With some CDR and mana regen, Fizz pays almost nothing for this skill, so he is able to use it much more freely to dodge less-important spells. It's also much more versatile because it allows him to reposition and deals massive damage to anyone nearby when he comes down. Enemies are punished for waiting for him to leave his untargeable state because of the AoE damage. Compare this to Vlad, who only gains a slight movement speed boost and whose pool does relatively little damage. Enemies can easily wait for him to come out of his pool and then murder him afterwards.

In my opinion, Vlad is an example of how to do untargetability properly - a long-cooldown high-cost ability that allows Vlad to avoid a few seconds of pain, and survive a little longer in fights to deal a little more damage, placed alongside a kit of slow, sustained damage and immobility.

Meanwhile, Fizz is an example of the wrong way to do untargetability - a short-cooldown low-cost ability that can be used to dodge almost anything, which also deals heavy damage, allows Fizz to choose if he wants to re-enage or not, and is coupled with a kit of extreme burst damage.

PeachsProperty8 votes

Community haas views that vary on each champion.

RIOT has statistics.

Shadow Gilgamesh2 votes

While true, statistics do say a lot, and can sometimes be an indicator of problem champs, they don't always paint as full a picture as you would think.

As a key example, when they took LBs silence she wasn't a top pick, and she had a sub 50% winrate, that was a while back when they were removing a low counterplay mechanic from a lot of assassins because it WAS unfair, regardless of if the champ(s) was massively OP or not.

Remlap12233 votes

Alright kids, today's keywords are "windows of counterplay."

Both Annie and Vel'Koz can stun you, deal ridiculous amounts of magic damage over a very little amount of time, and are both immobile mages. The difference is that Vel'Koz has a clear window of counterplay (when his E is down, show him where it's going, cuz he's seen enough hentai) while Annie's window of counterplay is actually sealed off with bricks and concrete. Annie can keep her passive up as long as she wants, and all her abilities are so quick that you're not going to be able to tell that you're fucked until Tibbers is beating you like the red-headed stepchild (pun completely intended).

Same thing goes for Akali and LeBlanc. Both are leap happy assassins that can nuke you, only differnce is that with each of their power curves, you can shut Akali down early game and react to her late game, but LeBlanc can 100/0 you before you can react the instant she hits level 3 and gets a QEW combo off (2 if you're squishy enough, or she harassed you enough in lane).

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