If you aren't going to make Black Cleaver melee only, at least make it so they can't stack Cleaver with either Mortal Reminder/LDR
At least this way there's somewhat of an incentive to not get black cleaver on adcs
Pokemonred2005 votesWell, one thing to think about is that the way %pen stacks, it's less effective if you get it from multiple sources (You're not getting 35% + 24% = 59% armor pen, you're getting 51% armor pen (The actual reduction will be less than this, since Last Whisper doesn't factor base armor)). This is still a lot, but it's better than what it could be.
I can't speak for 
, since it's really there for the grievous wounds and has always had its niche, but with those nerfs to 
, I don't see any reason to stack it with Cleaver (the health on 
/
causes LDR's Damage to go down) anymore.
However, I'm currently not really seeing much of a point to nerf the interaction between Cleaver and Last Whisper regardless, because the only marksman I'm aware of that frequently builds both in the same build is 
, and I'm pretty sure she's going to be getting nerfs of her own fairly soon.
LordGeovanni1 votesMore penetration sorces how less effective
Battalion4 votesWith no slightly tanky alternatives left open to Marksmen, I am fully against this. Melee already has 
the only other relevant stats on marksmen would be between and a very distant 2nd of 
.
So no... 
item trees are too valuable for marksmen to let go. Especially for marksmen that need to be able to kite in an increasingly mobile game.
EDIT: Please look at responses before you post again. Also I would like to make a statement that for everyone of you complaining about a somewhat tanky item on a marksmen, others are crying about 
being too OP on marksmen. So what the consensus is on the board is to nerf the marksmen class in all aspects besides mobility. That is if you aren't talking about the Phage movement passive, which would only be granted on a largely wasted, highly expensive item such as Tri-Force, or the largely inferior Frozen Mallet.
No tanky items =/= No defensive items, tanks build substantially more HP than resistances, as resistances have diminishing returns. I am talking specifically about the HP granted by the Phage item tree.
LankPants5 votes
.
There's absolutely no defensive items for them to build though, none at all.
BLACK REALM GOD2 votesinb4 they add icons to show rune builds to the forums.
Battalion1 votesThat is not what I said at all, you can stop making hyperbolic statements now. Not a single one of those besides the Frozen Mallet and Trinity force gives health. Trinity force is extremely expensive as well as the spellblade passive is wasted on many marksmen and I already addressed that Frozen mallet is by far the inferior of Black Cleaver.
LankPants2 votesWith no slightly tanky alternatives left open to Marksmen, I am fully against this.
You said that. You said exactly that.
Battalion1 votesThank you. Now please tell me how
With no slightly tanky alternatives left open to Marksmen, I am fully against this
Is equivalent to insinuating this:
There's absolutely no defensive items for them to build though, none at all
Tanks, in large part, build Health (HP) and as such I was making a reference to HP. I even clarified that it was the Phage item tree that provides the only health based alternatives with damage left open to marksmen. What you listed above was 70% resistance only items without a shred of HP.
I did not say there are no defensive items, that was your own statement, not mine.
Z3Sleeper6 votesI'm against them having tanky options in the first place. You're a marksman not a ranged bruiser.
Unless you're Graves/Urgot.
Battalion1 votesThat is a very narrow view of game design.
General Esdeath 1 votesOK let's give all tanks attack speed on their items and flat AD/AP.
Battalion1 votesThere are hybrid items that cross both into tank and damage classes such as Black Cleaver. I am fine with that. Tanks already do build attack speed or damage items, the most common one I see is Blade of the Ruin King due to high returns when battling their lane opponent. Though mostly I see this on Gnar who is also a hybrid himself.
**Hyperbolic Statment time because that seems to fashionable in this thread: **
You people bitch and moan ** constantly ** about Riot forcing you to play a certain way. Then I get on these boards, advocating the freedom of choice in builds, and what do I get? Constant, ill thought-out responses from board users who don't seem to know that the upvote/downvote system does not give legitimacy nor take away legitimacy of what is posted. Have you taken a single moment to actually theorize the legitimacy of what I have posted? Or did you just breath really hard on the keyboard and start whining about a non-black & white system of game design? There's already a caveat listed of:
Unless you're Graves/Urgot
So then what do you do? Add a special line of code that item locks specific items? That's even more constricting than pigeonholing champions into the same tired, linear builds.
I'm waiting for this post to go to -6, at that point I'll know I made a valid comment.
General Esdeath 1 votesHP =/= tanky
You can get as much HP as you want but if you have no armor/mr you just get shredded by items like 
or 
You don't fix the problem of linear build paths by offering more items, you do it by making more items worthwhile.
Upvotes and downvotes show how many people agree/disagree with you. And if people have disagreed with your statement, for multiple seasons, I think you may be wrong.
Battalion1 votesYou have, so far, not shown a single, legitimate counter point to the argument I am making. You are telling me now that Health based items are not designed for tankier builds? Obviously resistances are key to more effective health, but I would not call a AP mid with Zhonyas tanky, but I would if they built 
and you know the difference? Spoiler: It's health.
You don't fix the problem of linear build paths by offering more items, you do it by making more items worthwhile.
And yes, yes I agree. So lets not add another item that does what Black Cleaver does already sometime down the road to fill the niche, and instead lets keep it available to everyone as being a worthwhile investment.
General Esdeath 1 votesI don't know if your trolling or just have a different definition of tanky than I do. When I see a Cho with 6K HP and no armor/MR I think he's big, but not tanky.
Battalion1 votesThat's a shame. Most tank items have significantly more HP than resistances because HP creates more effective health whenever paired with armor. A tank is better with more HP items than resistance items due to diminishing returns. If you do not know what that means or you have a different definition of diminishing returns, I suggest you look it up, preferably in Websters.
DrAtomMagnumMDPh1 votesThere are no tank classES. Fighters are tanky but they are a damage class as well.
DrAtomMagnumMDPh1 votesI never seen botrk on a tank. They srly do that? :o
Battalion1 votesBecause it does a consistent 8% of current HP which when you're fighting a laner that has 2500HP+ that comes out to a lot of consistent damage, more often, with some lifesteal. It's not for every top laner, but it's not an uncommon item in my experiences.
DrAtomMagnumMDPh1 votesI understand the logic just never seen one.
LordGeovanni1 votesYou describing fighters not tanks aka the og dps role that is currently obsolete because adcs can do their role without giving up their own role (which is ranged constant damage not high amounts of damage just constant application) at a better range and with better damage output.
Battalion1 votesYour comments are a lot about "The good old days" as if you're the only one with some knowledge of how this game started out. You think I got this name 7 years after it's been out? A dictionary defined term? Stop trying to talk about "Season 1-3" when I've already been through it.
LordGeovanni1 votesCant because those Seasons are what defined what a champion is and what they do and you who know what fighters are yet saying tanks build are the type of person who ends up on the side of the boards (road) rambling and ignored because of what you say.
DrAtomMagnumMDPh1 votesRiots own definition of marksmen is that they are ranged damage dealers who rely on their teammates for protection. So blame them. Second tier zeal items have bonus movement speed for those kiting purpose on them for marksmen. Plus the phage tree is not for tanks but fighters. Tank items do not have no ad or ap.
Battalion1 votesBuilding a single item that gives them 400HP without resistances does not change the definition of a marksmen.
LordGeovanni1 votesIt does it as fragile or squishy should be in that definition. And it also changes the counter play to marksmen too which is to burst them before they get going.
LordGeovanni1 votesConsidering that every other class has this and things like tank ekko were massively nerfed because of that game design view even though bruiser was one of the things that was ekko was designed in mind with what makes adcs special when they already do that just with crit and lifesteal.
General Esdeath 3 votesThe class meant to go full damage has no defense items?
was changed to benefit them more than anyone else
gives them a shield AND lifesteal
can turn into ONE thing ( ) and it's only good on them.
offers A LOT of lifesteal and a shield
Battalion1 votesI said tanky, not resistances. See my above post, I'm not repeating myself for everyone of these ridiculous repetitive posts. The only marginally admissible example is a 3700 Blood Thirster .
DrAtomMagnumMDPh2 votesTanky means resistance if you think about healt as resistance as well. But resitance is not equall with hp. Phantom dancers percentile damage reduction is defensive.
Battalion1 votesYou're spinning off what a Resistance means. Health is not resistances, resistances are resistances; that is why they are called Resistances.
DrAtomMagnumMDPh1 votesAccording to lol wiki it is. Including health regeneration, which i find wierd.
LordGeovanni1 votesIf you want tanky stats buy tank items it was good enough in seasons 1 2and 3 but when adcs dropped building defensive items mages followed suit and both complained and got max hp buffs in season 4. now adcs crying why dont i get defensive items with ad on them they already stole ga from every other class same with mages why dont i get more armor ap items.
Battalion2 votesThat is an extremely, extremely simplified and not wholly accurate rendition of history. I wonder why ADCs needed to be tankier (assassins). GA was too powerful on other classes like Tanks, that's why it was moved over. The reason that it was the ADCs who picked it up was because there was no Zhonyas equivalent, at all, and there still really isn't. ADCs get targeted by everyone, all the time, to say that they do not need some items with a bit of health is ridiculous. You're ridiculous.
LordGeovanni1 votesIts not ridiculous at all. if they need items with health build Defensive items like i was already saying but dont ask for damage items to bolster your defense
Sightless661 votesit was good enough in seasons 1 2and 3
It really wasn't though. Under that system of itemization, we had two major problems. First, carries couldn't viably itemize into defensive options. The opportunity cost was simply too high, with the sole exception of periods where GA was broken enough that 3-5 members of a team would purchase it. Having defense was not a real option, no more than buying an IE is for a tank trying to increase their damage nowadays. Doing it was a very, very good way to lose. It was always better to take the risk on your enemies making a mistake and you getting to be useful, rather than building a pure defensive item and guaranteeing you wouldn't be useful. Having items with damage and small amounts of defense (PD rework, Death's Dance) allowed for defensive itemization to actually be an option for carries, instead of just a trap.
Second, ADC itemization at the time was incredibly cookie-cutter. You had no choices except highest-dps, so that's what you did. It was the exact same items, in the exact same order, on almost every character. Adding items with alternative strengths allowed for giving up some dps to actually be a realistic option.
when adcs dropped building defensive items mages followed suit
Mages never bought defensive items. Mages who bought defensive items were either trolling or terrible, often both (again, excepting the "GA is OP" period). AD carries tried to in season 1 and eventually learned that it was a trap, but mage never were never stupid enough to believe that building a real tank item was anything but a trap. They built Zhonya's and relied on it if they needed safety.
redniwediS1 votesI like getting both Black Cleaver and Mortal Reminder on melees, but I'd gladly give that up if it meant fewer ADCs with Black Cleaver.
oOBestEveNAOo1 votesHey hey bud!
Wanna add it to the list of things we talking about here:
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesAs a Kled player I gotta say no to that. I NEED those items to fight tanks up here in the top lane. Otherwise that Nasus my team says: "Just kill him early" to... guess what, he AIN'T going down early I need both those items in tandem to stay viable in the laning phase and without them I have no alternatives. If that happens he buys his gauntlet/frozen heart and my whole team will suffer.
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesHeck, even GP has this issue sometimes!
Z3Sleeper2 votesThat's one long ass laning phase if you can complete both items during that time.
Mokuto Bunshi1 votesIn the example its a Nasus, its not like hes going anywhere. But this applies to tank comps too. If it gets later into the game I need BOTH items for the damage I need. Normally I build a B/C and a dusk blade/youmuus late. But if they were to have maybe 2 or more tanks I build lord doms earlier instead then go tanky with maybe a gargoyles as the game goes. MY POINT IS, there are fighters why need the dmg from those items, so the SPECIFIC idea of not being able to build both might not be the best solution. I think there should be other incentives/ways to keep adc's from abusing the items.
FPS P1 xSolusGod1 votesPlease leave Black cleaver alone, JUST PLEASE STOP COMPLAINING! I want to play whatever style I want and pretty soon that will disappear if more people complain about things they dont understand.
LankPants1 votesConsidering Sterak's and Hex don't stack I don't see why these should.
Mimr1 votesWouldn't like that, at least not without some notorious armor stackers (Rammus and Malphite primarily) getting a nerf as well.
