Why can't we have an AP Black Cleaver for fighters?

Arcyyy·Sep 1, 2017·14 votes·1,290 views

Haunting Guise Rework

1250 Gold

Builds from

+200 HP +25 AP

Unique Passive (Rage): Dealing Magic Damage to an enemy champion grants you +20 Movement Speed. Kills grant +60.

Avid Buyers:

The Magic Stick

3000 Gold

Builds from

+400 HP +60 AP +10% CDR

Passive: Reduces targets magic resist by 4% every time you deal magic damage, stacking up to 6 times for a maximum of 24% magic resist reduction.

Passive: Dealing Magic Damage grants you +20 Movement Speed. Kills grant +60.

Avid Buyers:

38 Comments

chipndip1Sep 1, 20175 votes

Why fuck over Haunting Guise to do it?

Critmaster GarenSep 1, 20174 votes

because mages with dots and short cd abilities exist.

Annie Malzahar Ryze Cassiopeia Azir also Corki

it would be the equivalent of marksmen abusing cleaver to kite and shred armor of the same melee champions who are supposed to benefit the most from the item.

how do you propose to prevent that from happening?

plus, ekko is supposed to be an assassin and not able to just 1v1 tanks. i dont think giving him such an item is a good idea.

ArcyyySep 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0FrN3Npf,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-09-01T11:08:32.294+0000)

because mages with dots and short cd abilities exist.

also

it would be the equivalent of marksmen abusing cleaver to kite and shred armor of the same melee champions who are supposed to benefit the most from the item.

how do you propose to prevent that from happening?

plus, ekko is supposed to be an assassin and not able to just 1v1 tanks. i dont think giving him such an item is a good idea.

Make it melee only. Done. Only problem is then fiddle wont get it.

Also Ekko can easily burst tanks by building Void Staff Pen Boots...

An Undead bratSep 1, 20172 votes

As item 3071 is melee only?

ErockandrollSep 1, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0FrN3Npf,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-09-01T12:45:15.346+0000)

As is melee only?

Honestly, I find it hilarious that people will complain about stats checking. Yet at the same time, think that melee's should have better stats on their itemization.

And given the fact that casters like Rumble have been pretty good. (Up till the Tank meta anyways) I could probably see such an item going two ways. Either the likes of Rumble, Mord, etc, will get balanced around the item and get pidgin holed into buying it. Or Riot will look at the rest of the champ list (Like Vlad and swain) and decide that theirs no good reason to make it melee only.

Considering that Black cleaver is a Bruiser item, the only reason to have an AP version is to support AP Bruisers. Yet the fact that you would have to fiddle with it this much, suggest that the approach itself is kinda flawed. (Also Ekko? He already had a Bruiser build. And people hated it. So why would people not hate an AP Version?)

Mens Hair ClubSep 1, 20172 votes

is there a reason melees shouldn't have better stats on items

An Undead bratSep 2, 20171 votes

Because unless the item is a Hydra ranged would abuse it.

Better for the balance if their base stats are better.

Mens Hair ClubSep 2, 20171 votes

then their base stats aren't good enough right now

An Undead bratSep 2, 20171 votes

I don't play them, I can't judge (except for Camille , but honestly, it's more inting than playing, lol).

Mens Hair ClubSep 2, 20171 votes

most bruisers have very marginally higher base stats than ADCs right now, and barely more armor, or sometimes the same. usually not more than a giant's belt at level 18 and in some cases ADCs have HIGHER base stats early game. i think that's completely ridiculous to be frank

Leaf on BushSep 1, 20171 votes

To be fair if you have top laner with cleaver in a team fight, the ADC will benefit from that armor reduction. However mages already benefit from the fact that tanks tend to build less MR than Armor and on top you have item 3001 which increases damage item 3020 which has no equivalent AD item and item 3135 that affect total MR not just bonus MR.

Solidair3Sep 1, 20173 votes

item 3070 item 3091

Nagoh ShanSep 1, 20171 votes

Yup, just imagining Kayle stacking wit's and this new item to move at mach 8, and shred their MR by 25 flat and 39% total.

HopeStartsWithUSep 1, 20172 votes

Cassiopeia would be busted af lmao, cool idea tho :P

LimrickSep 1, 20172 votes

Rumble would fully stack it instantly with Q, then massacre anyone. No thanks, don't buff the cancer rat.

LordGeovanniSep 1, 20172 votes

black cleaver is toxic enough on armor magic resist is so much less and less avaliable. Does Mordekaiser need more Damage.

AhristocatsSep 1, 20171 votes

black cleaver already imbalances the game

let's make one for AP LUL

Skins ProjectSep 1, 20171 votes

Vohiyo :3

DariusDemiurgeSep 1, 20171 votes

Didn't they plan on making abyssal scepter into one then trashed it because swain/Vlad last yearish?

MordepoolSep 1, 20171 votes

Ap fighters need a better option not sure if this is it

Shuriman CuratorSep 1, 20171 votes

I think this would be a good buy on Shen as well.

Darkdemon653Sep 1, 20171 votes

The answer is because magic resistance would require a total overhaul. It's the same reason there are only two MPen items and why the non-boots one is mediocre.

SelegunSep 1, 20171 votes

If the MR reduction was applied on auto attacks instead of magic damage I could get behind this item. There needs to be a deterrent for softer champions picking up the item and making them get close to the opposition would very much help.

OverloadroadSep 1, 20174 votes

item 3091

LordGeovanniSep 1, 20171 votes

wits end could be an end game item with just 300 hp

HenzoAFSep 1, 20171 votes

Malzahar item 3020 item 3151 item 3135 item 3380 The God!

Rockem SockmSep 1, 20171 votes

They had Abyssal Sceptre till it was removed due to being abused buy every single mage.

That truly made it equal to black cleaver

StarboyˇSep 1, 20171 votes

No thanks

Nagoh ShanSep 1, 20171 votes

Kayle

GrandpaTheGreatSep 1, 20171 votes

It probably would need to be based on something like the amount of time in combat rather than instances of damage, otherwise anything with a DOT could stack it instantly (Especially the ones that tick multiple times a second such as Singed and Rumble)

0 HogapuSep 1, 20171 votes

I am fine with this item, but I think it is a bad idea to remove another magic pen item from the game :/

FirethornSep 2, 20171 votes

Might want to put in Unique passives for "The Magic Stick"

BârdSep 2, 20171 votes

Because cloning items is just lazy.

Currently, the equivalent is item 3001 or item 3091 depending on what you're looking for.

RankOneUgandaSep 2, 20171 votes

I do agree that we can't make the item reduce MR based on magic damage because it would be too universal

reducing MR with auto attacks would be better.

SukishooSep 2, 20171 votes

How about no? There's already more Armor in the game then there is MR. So why give something that reduces it?

IcyPepperSep 2, 20171 votes

You know, it'd be interesting if they took item 3091 and gave it a cleave passive. Make it completely auto-attack based, but with an aoe to better proc the effective.

You won't be able to 100-0 the enemy team with a single rotation from a safe distance, but if you dive and survive long enough you might be able to do some serious damage.

Elkington VISep 2, 20171 votes

AP bruisers/fighters have historically been very hard to balance. Might as well add all of these champs while you're at it, because they would all benefit from it...

Ahri Cassiopeia Akali Evelynn Kayle Chogath Gragas Taliyah Malzahar Vladimir Teemo Singed Nidalee Fizz Elise Annie Shaco Katarina Leblanc Swain Ryze

Riot tried to do this a long time ago with an item called the Blackfire Torch, but it just ended up warping the balance of the game on the maps it was available for. AP champions can't have a Black Cleaver-ish item because they all end up benefiting from it and it causes a ton of problems across every single class.