Garen rework misconceptions

Moody P··30 votes·13,017 views

A lot of people don't get why these changes are good or are misinterpreting them as nerfs or knee-jerk removals after a sudden appearance in pro play. Truth is, its almost entirely buffs, either in flat power or in usability.

But there's a reason - a few in fact - that these are well received by Garen players.

I'd like to start on the thing I see most repeated; that Garen is having defense nerfed for damage. No; he is losing 20 of his defensive farm stars because his passive is being buffed quite enormously. His up front defense has been shifted to superior sustain and lastability, because its more visible and more satisfying. He will be the same if not better into ranged matchups because of his better lastability.

Speaking of his damage, the reason its going up is quite simple; Garen's damage sucks. With a large part of his damage being tied to Villainy and an isolation mechanic that nobody really notices or cares about, removing it means that his general damage is going to go up. This is not damage creep; it's normalization and rational changes. It makes perfect sense that a champion who has his damage entirely limited to melee range scraps with no hard CC to lock you down in that range should have frightening damage when he gets you in that range. You can say whatever you like about that, but that's just how it is.

Another big and under stated reason these changes are excellent is because they give Garen synergy. The way his E works now (applying onhit, scaling off of AS) actually opens more bot lane combos than Yuumi where Garen is the carry as he is meant to be, because supports can now actually contribute to raising his damage threat as enchanters are supposed to do for their carries. Lulu with Ardent stacking buffs onto a Garen is a very scary thing, and this alongside his passive changes are likely two enormous boosts to his high elo viability in any lane.

I think my only concern here is that there's too little consideration for low ELO in these changes. I don't care about it, and I don't think riot should either, but Riot does, and none of these changes have moved his skill expression around at all; he's still very low floor and with how volatile a champion like him can be at low rank play, I think he might be too strong with these buffs.

That's all.

57 Comments

Jimmy Rustles10 votes

Getting 50 armor/mr from his W was such a huge sink for his power budget, so as hilarious as it is getting that much for free, I am glad its going back to 30 so he can actually have some damage again

The one big thing Ill miss, is ironically the Villian mechanic, but only for those situations when its a tank as the villian and get to see that massive 2k+ true damage execute while yelling DEMACIA

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Lemme tell you, his ult stays a true damage execute. So you always get your high point, just without having the tank as the villain.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

His old villian passive made each spin, his Q, and his autos do % hp true damage too. So, that helped kill tanks a tiiiiiiiiiiiiiny bit.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Yeah, I know.

However:

get to see that massive 2k+ true damage execute while yelling DEMACIA

This still stays an achievable high point. Well, at least for 1.5k+ damage, that is.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

True. Reaching that said high point was easier back then than it is now. First he has to do enough damage to said tank to enable his execute.

DragonShea2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0BUIuRJc,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-17T01:43:49.141+0000)

Getting 50 armor/mr from his W was such a huge sink for his power budget, so as hilarious as it is getting that much for free, I am glad its going back to 30 so he can actually have some damage again

The one big thing Ill miss, is ironically the Villian mechanic, but only for those situations when its a tank as the villian and get to see that massive 2k+ true damage execute while yelling DEMACIA

50 resistances and Good damage in exchange for range is fair in my books.

Illabethe4 votes

I'm scared tbh. The Buffs are really scary:

Judgment applying up to 10 INNATE On hits to targets less than 50% HP? WTF? Garen could build a item 3153 and literally shred someone to death without even using his ult. (and the Botrk would increase the ticks to 11). Also, keep in mind life steal is an on hit effect! This change is going to make him life steal from spinning.....

Also, Non Epic Monsters are never going to disable his Life regen? Doesn't that shift his role from top to a jungler, since he can just item 1039 + passive and sustain better than any jungler in the game? (His sustain per second is greater than Mundo when it's active).

The rest just looks like tweaks. But these two changes look HUGE.

I'm not saying the changes necessarily will change the Garen meta to build item 3153 or meta him to jungle; I'm saying that the scalability is there and it will be abused and people will not be able to adapt to it fast enough when it happens. It'll snowball a game when players aren't ready for it.

The change arguably makes Garen one of the best users of item 3091 by far, since it is a pure on hit mod, and once it's scaled up to level 18, that's 80*12 = 960 extra damage a spin...... and if Garen gets low enough it'll almost auto heal him up to half HP. How do you feel about a guaranteed execute basic skill that heals a juggernaut to half HP on a low cooldown ready for the next target?

WoonStruck2 votes

item 1041 might actually be better depending on how the item and his E are coded.

He won't need item 1039 sustain with his passive.

Moody P18 votes

You've misread it. He applied on hits for 50% damage, not when the enemy is below 50% HP. So 10 spins would do as much damage as normal on hit effects applied 5 times through auto attacks.

That said, yes, its definitely a power up.

Illabethe1 votes

I'm just wondering....... whose downvoting this?

Did you see the Professor Akali video above?

Literally 1 shots entire teams with E, and there is nothing you can do about it, because Garen heals up on Botrk/Wits End..... With Dance, he can't even be damaged....

#And yes. I know. Professor Akali.... always off meta sensationalist. But this is real. It's on a simple champion with no real learning curve, no mana costs, where the only real decision you have to make is when to go in and when to back off. In other words, this WILL be the meta. I even forgot about Tiamat/Hydra procs.

The only difference between High Elo and Low elo will be: Low elo: Goes 20/4 in 20 minutes, because they make mistakes and hesitate at applying pressure (so they won't get 2+ kills a minute, unless a smurf, who WILL get 2+ kills a minute)

High elo: Goes 18/4, because someone will rush early Grievous wounds, and while killing 2-3 people, he will die not to mistakes, but to overwhelming teamwork. Team will capitalize on the death, take turrets, and end the game faster than low elo.

Pierce The Veal11 votes

So let’s see, a diamond and past really high elo player kicks ass on the pbe. Who would’ve thought.

Literally building a bramble vest makes garen delete himself on you. Because yes, the bramble vest’s damage procs on every spin. Furthermore

Like seriously, stop bullshitting here lol.

Here’s your professor clickbait video. Note how he gets a kill within the first two minutes. He’s playing against idiots as a half decent player. No shit he’s going to get fed. It’s furthermore against players who have no idea what to do against garen. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hzAZWT0rcvo

Illabethe1 votes

What you're denying is

  1. The fact I cede Akali is a sensationalist

  2. EVERYONE underestimates Garen when he's in play so getting early kills isn't unusual for Garen.

  3. It wouldn't happen much different if a Silver was playing it versus a Silver, because Garen's skill cap isn't that high.

All you have to do in Silver with this Kit:

Pressure turrets and force the enemy to either respond or lose objectives. You don't have to "hunt" like Akali was doing to make this work. You just have to make them want to hunt YOU.

Pierce The Veal7 votes
  1. ceding it and buying straight into the sensation means you might as well not have ceded it.

  2. bullshit. No extra explanation needed. Everybody since the dawn of time has respected garen and his capability to fuck shit up. I remember back when real runes were in the game dyrus has a runepage of full amor. Seals marks quint glyphs, all armor. Just to deal with garen.

  3. yes it fucking would. Did you open your eyes while watching the video? His opponents basically ran it down so many times. Dying the same way over and over while not respecting their lane opponent in the least.

For the kit to be that “op” you need to be full build or have multiple items. For that your opponents need to be r%%%%%ed enough to let you get fed in the first place. It’s just not going to happen. At the end of the days all that will really change is you’ll see garens running lethal tempo and getting titanic hydra. Literally nothing else has changed. Stacking attack speed is risky when it’s so easy to be kited.

Don’t let the sensationalists fool you. This won’t change much.

Illabethe1 votes

Nearly 80% of his kills were chasing them. Not them coming to him. There were a couple times where they thought they could 3v1 him, but that's a semi rational instinct. Most of the time they just made the mistake of coming within 1000 or so range of him, which should be a safe distance. But Garen has a speed boost, and a Botrk, so it's NOT.

Part of the entire point of the video was how easy it CS's as well. Ie..... HE WILL HAVE ITEMS. First Back: Tiamat. 100% CS Secure.

P.S. I developed my opinion of this rework BEFORE watching the video. The video just confirms my analysis.

Pierce The Veal5 votes

20% of those kills were enough to make him able to chase them for 80% of those kills.

He had a full item before anybody had half an item. All because he was playing against people who very frankly ran it down.

John Westlin4 votes

Instead of fixing the damage meta, they make Garen a bruiser, not a tank anymore.

DarwinTheory5 votes

[{quoted}](name=John Westlin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0BUIuRJc,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-08-17T05:02:51.489+0000)

Instead of fixing the damage meta, they make Garen a bruiser, not a tank anymore.

Garen has neither been a bruiser or a tank for 4 seasons.

GayrensTari2 votes

{quoted}

Garen has neither been a bruiser or a tank for 4 seasons.

Garen is never a tank he is a tanky fighter.

Aatrox Airlines3 votes

He was never a tank to begin with, always a bruiser. Classified as juggernaut, which is a subclass of bruiser

ChaddyFantome2 votes

Garen has never been a tank. Never. Hes always been about dealing damage.

Wyrmblade3 votes

I'll support any revert from the mass reworks except maybe Darius. The juggernaut update was when Riot jumped the shark.

Zekrom10101010102 votes

{quoted}

I'll support any revert from the mass reworks except maybe Darius. The juggernaut update was when Riot jumped the shark.

Darius is the only champion who got out of the juggernaut rework healthier than before. Pre rework Darius was literally the simplest champion in the game; at least Garen had/has to time his W well to get the most out of it. Reworked Darius is much much more popular and shows up in pro play occassionally without warping it.

crippler383 votes
  1. I want to try clepto Garen.

  2. I agree with everything you said.

  3. I especially believe that these changes had Zeal items in mind since Garen scales really hard off crit but his E made attack speed kinda bad on him before. Now his E applies the lightning from Shiv and the attack speed makes him spin more. Plus Conq was a rune he couldn't use at all before, now he can.

KFCeytron3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0BUIuRJc,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-17T01:12:52.307+0000)

lastability

*longevity

Moody P2 votes

dielessitude

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Livemoreination

Danyoja2 votes

I agree, once the rework comes out I can see the forums begging for nerf (I mean there are actually plenty already). Unfortunately with a kit as simple as Garen if it's made to do okay in high-elo it will stomp in lower elo. I think for changes they will increase the cooldown of his ult and maybe move it back to magic, but time will tell. I be happy for a base move speed increase. I know it just got nerf, but til now I thought it was weird that Tahm was faster than Garen via base if they have to take some damage away because he's too strong I hope they give him a little speed or something to compensate.

Lukáš Mrákošlap2 votes

item 1416 + item 3153 +item 3124 +item 3091

Sounds legit to me.

Wild Geese2 votes

proccing 21 onhit effects in 3 seconds is busted.

Deny it all you want, but you will all be crying when it all goes live.

5050BS2 votes

You can get 24 if you go Lethal Tempo (thats 96% current HP with just BotRK procs)

He is so busted its not funny.

Reaversal4 votes

{quoted}

You can get 24 if you go Lethal Tempo (thats 96% current HP with just BotRK procs)

He is so busted its not funny.

It's actually less than that, since each proc is going to do less damage than the last (since 4% of the target's current HP will be a smaller number with each successive hit).

IMelchorI7 votes

{quoted}

You can get 24 if you go Lethal Tempo (thats 96% current HP with just BotRK procs)

He is so busted its not funny.

lethal tempo gives 110% attack speed max + 50% base attack speed = 14 spins at level 18.

item 3153 with 50% damage is 56% current health when you add it.

but it is less because the first botrk loses you 4%. with 1000 health = 40 damage

then the second one another 4%. with 960 = 38.4 damage.

item 3153 gives less damage on every spin.

so it is less than 56%

5050BS1 votes

You dont build just BotRK sheesh

from my PBE testing

item 3153 item 3124 item 3748 item 3091 item 3078 item 3071

You dont need boots

Anything under 200 armor is true damage to them. You Q wait 1.5s and E for 22 attacks spin that does (you get 24 if you trade item 3748 our for like item 3046 but item 3748 is way better.) Rageblade and Black Cleaver stack instantly

With this you do about 2800 DPS for Q>E on a Dummy (yes I know % hps items and dummies. Its just a Bench mark for all builds with BotRK on Dummies.)

Oh fyi Rageblade Ghost hit works in his E so he gets 7 ghost hits in one E

Sherogarth1 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzAZWT0rcvo

The problem is that in current form this rework is quite busted. His E applies all on-hit effects... its really funny to see him apply item 3748 3 times in one sec.

Wimbledofy1 votes

He could also use Klepto with his E right? That would sound funny, but he'd have to make sure not to hit any minions first.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzAZWT0rcvo

The problem is that in current form this rework is quite busted. His E applies all on-hit effects... its really funny to see him apply item 3748 3 times in one sec.

E applies on hit effects at 50% damage.

Blade of the Ruined King and Titanic Hydra only apply on basic attacks.

BladeSteel2 votes

Nope, they apply as on hit. They get double proc with rageblade. How about you actually watch the video/learn about on hits before saying incorrect things.

Mighty Mortein1 votes

{quoted}

E applies on hit effects at 50% damage.

Blade of the Ruined King and Titanic Hydra only apply on basic attacks.

His E is counted as a basic attack for on-hit items. Weirdly enough, it can't proc PTA.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

I think PTA requires unique instances and his E still counts as 1 instead of individual auto attacks.

DarwinTheory5 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzAZWT0rcvo

The problem is that in current form this rework is quite busted. His E applies all on-hit effects... its really funny to see him apply item 3748 3 times in one sec.

No. Th problem is you have a world top tier akali main streamer playing against lowbies on the test server. Don't assume it's broken, 27 kills is godly by even pyke standards,

Sightless663 votes

Any champion is busted when you have a challenger player up against bronzes and silvers, which is exactly what this game was. He's got dozens of videos just like this for as many champions. There's a reason every time anything new happens, these youtubers have a "MOST BROKEN THING EVER 100/2/30 NERF THIS NOW!!!!??:!?!!!" title on their videos. It's not because everything is broken, it's because they're playing against people who aren't anywhere near as good as them, and hyping shit up makes for a more popular video.

Seriously, the guy had first blood and more kills fed to him by an Ekko who didn't know what his B button did. This is not representative of actual balance.

IMelchorI2 votes

{quoted}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzAZWT0rcvo

The problem is that in current form this rework is quite busted.

as busted as this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBTFdC6DiFg

"better than akali"

Eotfofyl1 votes

New changes are really bad, I really don't want Garen to become another fighter...

GayrensTari6 votes

{quoted}

New changes are really bad, I really don't want Garen to become another fighter...

Are you high? Garen is a fighter! lmao

ChaddyFantome2 votes

Garen has always been a fighter. The heck are u saying lol. Reminds me of how people call Mundo a Tank. NO HE ISNT!

DarwinTheory1 votes

I have 2.4 million Garen points. I know the champ pretty well.

Garen's core was always a lane bully who fell off late, even MarineRevenge who was one of the biggest Garen names back in S5 quit lol for a time because of the BS juggernaught rework. His tankiness and E was his straenght but RIOT seem hell bent on switching his power to his Q and not understanding Garen's identity.

The W nerf is a placebo nerf to stop lowbies crying. Has no relevance lane phase, too long to stack.

The E buff could be a game change...I'm undecided I think late game it won't make a difference because Garen's telegraphed attacked will be countered before he gets a chance to make use of the buff especially with slightly lower W stats.

The R buff I like. For me and my playstyle that thing will be beautiful. Can't wait. Should notch my lane win rate up 10% or so. can't wait.

GayrensTari4 votes

{quoted}

I have 2.4 million Garen points. I know the champ pretty well.

Garen's core was always a lane bully who fell off late, even MarineRevenge who was one of the biggest Garen names back in S5 quit lol for a time because of the BS juggernaught rework. His tankiness and E was his straenght but RIOT seem hell bent on switching his power to his Q and not understanding Garen's identity.

The W nerf is a placebo nerf to stop lowbies crying. Has no relevance lane phase, too long to stack.

The E buff could be a game change...I'm undecided I think late game it won't make a difference because Garen's telegraphed attacked will be countered before he gets a chance to make use of the buff especially with slightly lower W stats.

The R buff I like. For me and my playstyle that thing will be beautiful. Can't wait. Should notch my lane win rate up 10% or so. can't wait.

Yea I've no idea why some one think Garen is a tank. It clearly says he is a fighter in his bio.

Sukishoo1 votes

Fighter isn't a term in league anymore though, he's a juggernaut.

Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility.

GayrensTari1 votes

{quoted}

Fighter isn't a term in league anymore though, he's a juggernaut.

It's in garen's bio. Role: fighter. not tank.

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