What can I build for CDR against non-tanky teams as a bruiser/fighter?

ValyrianBlade··2 votes·441 views

Primarily playing J4 JarvanIV

I find whenever I'm against a moderately tanky (or more) team, I can rush Black Cleaver which gives me damage, health, and 20% CDR. I seem to frequently do extremely well in these games, especially late game. I run 10% scaling CDR glyphs and the 5% CDR cap increase mastery, so with Black Cleaver and one other 10% CDR item (often either Locket, Spirit Visage, or Warmogs) I have 45% CDR and the uptime on my E-Q combo becomes unreal (6 second cooldown on my flag which lasts 8 seconds, 3.3 second cooldown on my Q, and can't complain about the sub 50 second cooldown on my ult).

However when the enemy team has no tanks, I just don't know what to build. I can build Black Cleaver still and it works alright, but often it feels like wasted stats with the armor shred not doing as much.

I often end up building a tiamat item (item 3748 item 3074 ) which is great for my damage but I find mid-late game that second or so extra on my E and Q cooldowns can get me killed or deny me a catch that would have been a game-changer.

So I'm asking, hoping that someone else plays a max CDR J4 and has had success building something in place of Black Cleaver first.

Items I've thought of: item 3025 item 3110 item 3142 item 3812

16 Comments

TehNACHO1 votes

If the enemy team is full of squishies, you could take advantage of it by building Flat Damage and going pseudo assassin on them.

Trinity Force is also an alright item in this case.

Fondling Gems1 votes

I support iceborn for the dmg and slow. Deaths dance is good for 1-2 dmg items into full tank.

If you wa t to go full dmg and oneshot squishies then youmuus for the active and armour pen

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AOh8FYd,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-31T22:23:51.795+0000)

I support iceborn for the dmg and slow. Deaths dance is good for 1-2 dmg items into full tank.

If you wa t to go full dmg and oneshot squishies then youmuus for the active and armour pen

I definitely prefer 1-2 damage items in to full tank.

For an idea, my ideal build on J4 (i.e. when the enemy team calls for it at all, I like this the most) is: item 3071 > item 3111 > item 3742 > one of item 3065/ item 3083/ item 3190 to max CDR > two of item 3143 / item 3156 / item 3748 / item 3053 / item 3075 / item 3068 / item 3102 depending on the situation and who's fed.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Ok so based on this let me drop some suggestions on you. Please note I don't play J4 but the general build fits quite a few champs that stat wise want similar items.

To replace BC I would grab IBG. The only exception I would make is if about 80% of their dmg is ap or they have a lot of AD AS dependent champs in which case you want Heart and stacking that much mana is bad on J4.

If you aren't grabbing IBG due to lots of AP then I would build a maw for the Armour pen early.

If you aren't grabbing it because you want heart then I would get A) Rav Hydra B) Deaths Dance or C) Trinity

If you went Maw get boots and an IBG

If you went Rav/Dance get boots and Trinity. If you went Trinity get Rav for burst, Dance for standing in teamfights forever.

After that go standard tank.

Miror B1 votes

One cool item for mana-reliant bruisers is always item 3110 . It doesn't always work too well (like into full AP teams), but on certain things like graves it can make you almost unbearably tanky.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

One cool item for mana-reliant bruisers is always item 3110 . It doesn't always work too well (like into full AP teams), but on certain things like graves it can make you almost unbearably tanky.

I think Frozen heart would be great, but what item do I rush first then? I feel like I need a damage item first - maybe not, but probably.

I guess ideally it would be a high health item with some damage (to compensate for FH's no health)? So a frozen mallet? Or I guess I could stick with Titanic Hydra, then go Frozen Heart second.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

item 3083 item 3065 item 3190 item 3078 aswell.

you should get some item combination for 40% cdr together.

especially triforce is a good item against squishies for the burst damage it adds.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AOh8FYd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-05-31T22:26:58.536+0000)

item 3083 item 3065 item 3190 item 3078 aswell.

you should get some item combination for 40% cdr together.

especially triforce is a good item against squishies for the burst damage it adds.

Ah good point - the new TF should be awesome for J4. With regards to the other 3 items you listed - they're great for later in the game but I don't think it's very good to rush them. I feel like I need some damage in my first item or I'm just useless early game.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

Yea the new item 3078 will be great for you then because it's CDR is increasing to 20% next patch. In case you didn't see the changes to it, the price is going down a little (almost 100g cheaper), CDR going from 10% to 20% and attack speed going up from 15% to 40%...The only thing it's losing is the 20% crit which shouldn't matter to much for JarvanIV.

Also since you said that you had 10% CDR from runes, and 5% from masteries..instead of buying item 3065 you could just get item 3158 and still have max CDR with item 3071 or new item 3078.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sacred Knight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AOh8FYd,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-05-31T22:29:37.302+0000)

Yea the new item 3078 will be great for you then because it's CDR is increasing to 20% next patch. In case you didn't see the changes to it, the price is going down a little (almost 100g cheaper), CDR going from 10% to 20% and attack speed going up from 15% to 40%...The only thing it's losing is the 20% crit which shouldn't matter to much for JarvanIV.

Also since you said that you had 10% CDR from runes, and 5% from masteries..instead of buying item 3065 you could just get item 3158 and still have max CDR with item 3071 or new item 3078.

Great point on TF. Not a fan of Lucidity boots as I almost always want to get Mercury Treads if they have CC (admittedly less likely if they don't have tanks) and swiftness boots if they don't (easy to catch and escape). I don't always go Spirit Visage (typically only if I end up with lifesteal or have a healing support on my team) but Warmogs and Locket are reasonable options as well. Admittedly I liked the old SV / BV options compared to the new ones (I feel like BV gives too little health, SV too little MR).

Miror B1 votes

Ooh, completely forgot that black cleaver is also potentially an option on jarvan. Pre-devourer removal, I used to run that alongside black cleaver/titanic hydra/tank items to become a complete and udder nuisance once given decent farm. Easily one of the better items you can get on him.

Doctor Jarvis1 votes

Trust me, the armor shred on BC is doing enough. A lot of champs, even if they aren't building armor, have scaling armor, along with armor runes. It lets you ignore 15 armor against a champ with 50 armor, or, to put it another way, increases your damage by 7%. Against a target that has scaled up to 100 armor, it increases your damage by 9%. In addition to the AD, health, and MS it brings, flat 9% damage increase FOR YOUR WHOLE TEAM (the ones that deal physical damage, anyway) is pretty rad.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0AOh8FYd,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-05-31T23:06:03.130+0000)

Trust me, the armor shred on BC is doing enough. A lot of champs, even if they aren't building armor, have scaling armor, along with armor runes. It lets you ignore 15 armor against a champ with 50 armor, or, to put it another way, increases your damage by 7%. Against a target that has scaled up to 100 armor, it increases your damage by 9%. In addition to the AD, health, and MS it brings, flat 9% damage increase FOR YOUR WHOLE TEAM (the ones that deal physical damage, anyway) is pretty rad.

So build Black Cleaver anyways...

I guess with the recent cost reduction it may be a very valid point. Even shredding a bit of armor for the ADC adds a lot of overall damage. Any suggestion if my allies are all AP then? (e.g. AP mid, AP jungle, and a Corki adc)?

Dark Nephthys1 votes

Also as mentioned before by other people about getting Frozen Heart, it's a decent item on JarvanIV but like you mentioned before, I wouldn't get it first item. item 3748 into FH is a decent idea or getting another tank item into FH is also good. I think the only champion that can rush a first item FH would be Chogath and maybe Nasus.

CR4ZYRONDH4VI1 votes

item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071 item 3071

Maximum Morde1 votes

Cleaver. It works on squishies just fine.

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