-> Nerf his jungle item. -> Nerf his boots. -> Nerf his turtle shield and phoenix stance.
I have literally lost all faith in Riot now. They nerf the problem (the items), but then also nerf the champion in the same patch. A champion that has been balanced for 3 years.
RiotMeddler37 votesOn one hand we are hitting three things that will impact Udyr in a single patch.
On the other hand Udyr's significantly out of line and the individual changes are all quite small:
If those changes are enough to take Udyr from one of the strongest champs in the game in solo queue to a terrible state then we must be in a situation where everything's so balanced even tiny changes have monumental impacts. Given we've got a bunch of other balance issues to work on though that seems unlikely alas, so I'm personally more worried about needing to look into follow up nerfs than that we'll hit Udyr too hard.
Jesus is Savior2 votesOn one hand we are hitting three things that will impact Udyr in a single patch.
On the other hand Udyr's significantly out of line and the individual changes are all quite small:
- 3% less MS on Runic Echoes
- 5 less shield/damage per rank on Turtle and Phoenix
- 5 less MS on Boots of Swiftness
If those changes are enough to take Udyr from one of the strongest champs in the game in solo queue to a terrible state then we must be in a situation where everything's so balanced even tiny changes have monumental impacts. Given we've got a bunch of other balance issues to work on though that seems unlikely alas, so I'm personally more worried about needing to look into follow up nerfs than that we'll hit Udyr too hard.
To be honest I'm a little worried that he'll be crippled if you ever rework/delete Runic Echos, and he starts building devourer or cinderhulk again (because of the shield nerfs - since that means no more AP jungle item for shield AP ratios to compensate). Which is sort of a valid concern, considering we've already trashcanned the 2 previous AP jungle items fairly recently.
If something like that happens, will you guys... Remember he exists and consider reverting the nerfs if necessary?
Jorencice15 votes[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=06deWs4s,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2016-02-17T09:22:51.928+0000)
To be honest I'm a little worried that he'll be crippled if you ever rework/delete Runic Echos, and he starts building devourer or cinderhulk again (because of the shield nerfs - since that means no more AP jungle item for shield AP ratios to compensate). Which is sort of a valid concern, considering we've already trashcanned the 2 previous AP jungle items fairly recently.
If something like that happens, will you guys... Remember he exists and consider reverting the nerfs if necessary?
Doesn't his Devourer build also have a 56% win rate?
I know that's not the 58% of runic but still.
NelomS2 votesif you will hit Udyr more in future then please I beg you
don't nerf Runic Echo more since it made lot of AP jungler more fun to play... it's less struggle/suffering and more fun to play them despite they maybe aren't "meta" or that much viable in high elo or competitive (except Elise). During Runeglaive era 
abysed that item so it ended being gutted hard instead of hitting Ezr so don't do the same mistake with Runic Echo
rework Udyr Tiger stance so it not garage when you compare it to cookie cuter Phoenix stance that offers everything: aoe dmg, tons of dmg, splitpush power, etc... Tiger is so bad and literally no one use this build (you mostly pick 3 levels in it at lv 16, 17 and 18 or 1 point in mid game for the attack speed buff to make Phoenix even hit harder)
Big Lincoln7 votes3% movespeed isn't a gutting
Hello I am Bird4 votes3% ms... Thats like... 7 MS!
PrinceOfStorms1 votesWhen anything over 5 MS is considered significant, that's pretty significant. Plus, assuming 450 MS, it's equates roughly to an MS nerf of 13.5. This is -huge-. It would be like nerfing Lee's base MS to Zyra levels.
200220123 votesExcept no champion actually has 450MS.
NelomS1 votesI think he meant with few item/full build.
For example Diana or Ekko with Runic Echo, Lich Bane and fully enchanted boots (specially Swiftness boots) can be quite fast. Although I can't actually say right now if they can hit 450 MS with those item +/- movement speed runes or masteries
Sightless663 votesSure, but she'd only be hitting 450 MS because of the % movespeed items, and those don't function together. % MS items will only calculate off of base movespeed + flat increases. So, she'd be losing 3% off of what she would have had without regard to the lichbane movement speed and any runes/masteries she had.
Coolkipp2 votesExcept Lee sin has 350 ms while Zyra has 325.
Thats a 25 ms difference, which is the same as having a 300g gold lead at level 1.
Lee sin has this on alot of Champs and it's part of the reason I believe he's broken.
NelomS2 votesmb. I was thinking about future changes to Udyr. I hope that they won't target Runic Echo more because of him but actually focus on source of the problem aka champ not item. Hope they won't make the same mistake like they done with Runeglaive Ezr in past = nerf item not cancer champ that abuses item
Silas2 votesOn one hand we are hitting three things that will impact Udyr in a single patch.
On the other hand Udyr's significantly out of line and the individual changes are all quite small:
- 3% less MS on Runic Echoes
- 5 less shield/damage per rank on Turtle and Phoenix
- 5 less MS on Boots of Swiftness
If those changes are enough to take Udyr from one of the strongest champs in the game in solo queue to a terrible state then we must be in a situation where everything's so balanced even tiny changes have monumental impacts. Given we've got a bunch of other balance issues to work on though that seems unlikely alas, so I'm personally more worried about needing to look into follow up nerfs than that we'll hit Udyr too hard.
good logic.
can you apply it more to champions in need, or at least use the PBE more?
for starters: zac receives 25% cc reduction during his ultimate, jarvan's flag armor reinstated. by the way, consulting the other (2) challenger zac players and myself, swapping zac's W base cooldown for the blob-reduction mechanic was harmful. it loses him dps in the vast majority of fights, especially when it involves chasing. i beg you to revert this.
warpenguin5551 votesTrust me you don't need to worry about things being too balanced right now
SnugglePuggle942 votesNerf his movement speed, NOT runic echoes or boots of swiftness. Because if you do that, you are nerfing them also for the rest of champions who like to use them. Not cool, man.
WiegrafOfValor1 votesOn one hand we are hitting three things that will impact Udyr in a single patch.
On the other hand Udyr's significantly out of line and the individual changes are all quite small:
- 3% less MS on Runic Echoes
- 5 less shield/damage per rank on Turtle and Phoenix
- 5 less MS on Boots of Swiftness
If those changes are enough to take Udyr from one of the strongest champs in the game in solo queue to a terrible state then we must be in a situation where everything's so balanced even tiny changes have monumental impacts. Given we've got a bunch of other balance issues to work on though that seems unlikely alas, so I'm personally more worried about needing to look into follow up nerfs than that we'll hit Udyr too hard.
Why don't you just nerf his E? And leave Swiff and Runic Echos alone?
From: BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED: 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 / 35%
To: BONUS MOVEMENT SPEED: 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30%
Fikule1 votesSounds more like he needs some of them thar "county plays" so e' has his highs and lowwws
folsomdsf2 votesOn one hand we are hitting three things that will impact Udyr in a single patch.
On the other hand Udyr's significantly out of line and the individual changes are all quite small:
- 3% less MS on Runic Echoes
- 5 less shield/damage per rank on Turtle and Phoenix
- 5 less MS on Boots of Swiftness
If those changes are enough to take Udyr from one of the strongest champs in the game in solo queue to a terrible state then we must be in a situation where everything's so balanced even tiny changes have monumental impacts. Given we've got a bunch of other balance issues to work on though that seems unlikely alas, so I'm personally more worried about needing to look into follow up nerfs than that we'll hit Udyr too hard.
No, you're nerfing one build of udyr and fucking the others. His laning is already garbage and you're making it even worse as well. Manage is a huge constrictor on his other builds and now he gets less per use of it?
He's also been nerfed recently with the change to how on hits work with blinds/dodges. Oh and even funnier, a lot of those that now block udyr's stuns and crap(that didn't before) still don't block Ezreal Q's or even his autoattacks. This is super obvious on shen, which seriously.. wtf. how are you taking a hit that applies ON HIT affects with 100% dodge?
Dyabolic1 votesOn one hand we are hitting three things that will impact Udyr in a single patch.
On the other hand Udyr's significantly out of line and the individual changes are all quite small:
- 3% less MS on Runic Echoes
- 5 less shield/damage per rank on Turtle and Phoenix
- 5 less MS on Boots of Swiftness
If those changes are enough to take Udyr from one of the strongest champs in the game in solo queue to a terrible state then we must be in a situation where everything's so balanced even tiny changes have monumental impacts. Given we've got a bunch of other balance issues to work on though that seems unlikely alas, so I'm personally more worried about needing to look into follow up nerfs than that we'll hit Udyr too hard.
So you nerf two items cause of ONE champ? How about just nerfing the champion alone? There will be more champs suffering from these 2 nerfs (undeservingly) other than Udyr, you know?
Pixelhouse1 votesI hate people like you, Udyr was perfectly fine before the MS items. He had to be in your face to do something. Also hardly anyone played Udyr thats why his winrate was a little higher(because he was played by people that knew how to play him) then lee or elise because they are more known/played. Stop giving bad advice. They either revert the items or remove the MS from them bit nerfing Udyr now is just plain ridiculous.
Sand Clone2 votesSo you nerf two items cause of ONE champ? How about just nerfing the champion alone? There will be more champs suffering from these 2 nerfs (undeservingly) other than Udyr, you know?
since boots of swiftness is becoming too popular they are nerfing it because its crowding out all other choices
Craig1 votesAh, the "nerf everything except the champion itself" strategy
Undespu1edFight2 votesThank You, I wouldn't mind if you nerfed him to the point of urgot. A completely unbalanced bullshit, anti fun with very minimal counterplay
AFK Grooly1 votesYou have no idea what to do to stop an Udyr do you?
SH Azykan1 votesto be fair looks like he plays mostly AD assassins, who udyr loves to run at and kills pretty easily. Zed, Rengar, Shaco, Aatrox. None of those do well against an udyr on equal terms
Raphael Dawn1 votesMy question is ...why have ap ratios at all on a melee fighter with his kit? The dps tank splitpusher. Isnt it a bit off? Wouldnt it be better if he had base dmg and ad ratios adjusted?
TwinDenis1 votesImo the phoenix should do %maxhp damage instead of magic damage, he gets buffed by rage-blade so much. But with this idea he could use phoenix as executive move or lowering tank hp. Think is he doesnt directly benefits from building tanky, Only to approach the enemies and kill them. I think he should be like his shield be %max of his hp as a shield, phoenix do %maxhp or more %missinghp on the enemy, his tiger should be the same somewhat, so it would be like tiger for lowering their hp and then phoenix to finish them, his passive is good but changing stances he needs mana which is a minus, his bear should be as it is, they could change it to something like every 3rd attack mini-stun and knockback the enemy champion instead of insta-stun, kinda like dota's mini-bash from monkey king bar. I think this kit makes him perfect for both balance and uniqueness. What do you think? @Morello
TwinDenis1 votesI had to comment on that one, Udyr is the least of the problems actually, he is just totally annoying and just the last year's changes in the game made him very strong, it is easy to lose track of balance when you add something into a game or change the overall itemization, especially that. Anyway he is just annoying in my opinion, you can chase him on the whole map and still not be able to catch him, in my opinion master yi should outrun all of those champions because he lacks tankines which is something udyr can have. One thing I hate in the game is underpowered champions, instead of making champions weaker why not make other champions stronger? I mean take for example Azir which in the casual hands feels weak. The stronger mid laners in my opinion are at the moment ahri, lux, zed. Considering I play veigar because I like mid/late game hyper-scaling, I get poked so much from ahri. It is a mage with a strong CC but at the same time it is a skillshot, she feels not over powered in sense of balance but her utility/damage kit is strong, talon is strong too but falls off quickly and its a wasted slot if he is not getting fed early. I personally like unique kits like singed, jhin (he is a ranged assassin and not adc, he gives the impression that he is OP yet he needs help), azir (well... yeah we need to look into that more), graves (very strong but if bullets get tanked he gets denied), Leblanc (sorta fun to play), Poppy (needs some help as well, unique yet situation-ally strong, more of a counter champion). Kassadin (unique way to be a mage K-assassin using an enhanced blade, blinking around is fun and now more balanced...oh season 1... ) To sum up some champions need help, like Vladimir to feel more enjoyable to play, essentially you press 2 buttons all the time and either get kills and HP or stay around and wait for a kill or dive and die. I like the concept of Aoe damage in team fights when using a mage, now he may be a bit tankier than other mages (3000hp with full ap build average) but he feels like the old poppy. I like the fact that he plays TOP and Mid though, I also like the concept of infinite sustain and use Hp management to do damage, I know he is not a vampire but a blood-Bender though I would like to see a vampire character arise from the lore, I know its cliche but some people actually like this. Also Azir feels not so easy to play when playing casually or ranked, it is not an easy champion to use but at the same time it punishes players that attempt to master him from early on even with experience in the game and in league. Aatrox is the same way, for example I can play yasuo but I cannot play Aatrox or Azir but I like them both and the result is a harsh game and very punishing. So you end up farming and waiting for items to keep you intact. An idea I have for Singed this time is his poison damage should scale off max% Hp per 5 sec (stacking/refreshing the longer you stay in poison) and remove the Ap scale. This for making him a champion that the longer you stay near him the worse it becomes. But this is a balance if you think about it, tanks tend to buy MR so they will take less damage and Low hp champions like lux will take a fixed value of damage. So basically the poison will sort of balance the Hp bars of the opponents, you do the math of course. He could have a %magic pen passive on his ult to do damage to tanks too of course. This champion for some reason is one that in every game I see feeds the enemies and laughs like a maniac but he feels unique and creates a hidden rule in the game (Never...ever chase singed), he is only annoying though and skill lever impacts what he can do and how good he is as a champion.
TwinDenis1 votesTake my kit suggestion from below if you wish for udyr. I would like the idea of donating this with the lol community.
AFK Grooly1 votesI understand the Swiftness boot nerfs, and the Runic Echoes Nerf but reducing the base shield and base damage of Phoenix Udyr wasn't fair. However, reducing his AP ratios would have made more sense.
1YearNoFap1 votesU are calling it 5 less at all ranks. But its 33% decrease at rank one.. GET IT THRU UR HEAD.
Crossette10 votesUdyr hasn't been balanced. Hell, he isn't balanced now.
He deserves this because he has synergized and gotten almost EVERY jungle item nerfed or changed.
Jesus is Savior5 votesUdyr hasn't been balanced. Hell, he isn't balanced now.
He deserves this because he has synergized and gotten almost EVERY jungle item nerfed or changed.
He's not the only one who gets jungle items nerfed.
Plus they are STILL nerfing the jungle item, so...
Crossette1 votesI was waiting for that Ezreal face to appear.
Pretty much, but they've finally nerfed Ezreal instead of spellblade. (which I feel needs toned down a bit anyways but whatever, i'm tilted because Jhin right now)
BluePolarizer4 votesHmm, seems like the pain of Hecarim players:
Balanced in patch 5.23 with exactly 50% win rate jungle and top
Now is worse than Urgot was in season 4.
alfavhunter3 votesThe item changes (specifically the new AP jungle item) were huge buffs to his power
Sure certain build paths didn't get much, but some of them got good to great buffs with item and mastery changes
Jesus is Savior4 votesThe item changes (specifically the new AP jungle item) were huge buffs to his power
Sure certain build paths didn't get much, but some of them got good to great buffs with item and mastery changes
And now they're nerfing both the items AND the champion, in usual Riot style.
alfavhunter3 votesI know
I used to play Sion and sij
It's just a repeat of the same thing
Nerf champion
Nerf item that broke champion
Champion rots
Sir Yamazuki1 votesI know
I used to play Sion and sij
It's just a repeat of the same thing
Nerf champion
Nerf item that broke champion
Champion rots
Sej isn't even bad.
stealthfox941 votesThose nerfs are quite minor.
Jesus is Savior4 votesThose nerfs are quite minor.
The shield nerf is huge.
stealthfox942 votesYou are joking right? That's a 20 point nerf late game, not that huge.
Jesus is Savior1 votesYou are joking right? That's a 20 point nerf late game, not that huge.
When you use it 10-20 times in a drawn out skirmish, all of a sudden those "20 points" become 200-400 health.
Awkward Couch2 votesAll of Udyr's abilities have a cool down of 6 seconds. At 45 percent CDR, that's 3.3 seconds per ability without taking into account that he has a short delay between switching stances, so let's say 3.5 seconds between stances. In order for your numbers to be correct, you'd have to be fighting for more than 35 seconds per skirmish.
Even then, you have to take into account that Udyr is not going to be taking damage every time that he as his turtle stance up. Let's take Trick2G for example, he can go in, stun, do a bunch of damage and get out. Often times what he will do is go back in once he has his passive stacked fully, and if your trying to stack your passive, you aren't missing out on any extra HP.
I think a more realistic number of the HP that you would no longer be getting would be around 80 - 100 which is still less than a ruby crystal.
Jesus is Savior1 votes[{quoted}](name=Awkward Couch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=06deWs4s,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-17T09:22:47.378+0000)
All of Udyr's abilities have a cool down of 6 seconds. At 45 percent CDR, that's 3.3 seconds per ability without taking into account that he has a short delay between switching stances, so let's say 3.5 seconds between stances. In order for your numbers to be correct, you'd have to be fighting for more than 35 seconds per skirmish.
Even then, you have to take into account that Udyr is not going to be taking damage every time that he as his turtle stance up. Let's take Trick2G for example, he can go in, stun, do a bunch of damage and get out. Often times what he will do is go back in once he has his passive stacked fully, and if your trying to stack your passive, you aren't missing out on any extra HP.
I think a more realistic number of the HP that you would no longer be getting would be around 80 - 100 which is still less than a ruby crystal.
A nice drawn out chase -- usually through 2 sets of turrets -- can last 30+ seconds. Udyr is a tank/bruiser, not an assassin. He tries to slowly slap people to death while being an unkillable menace.
Awkward Couch1 votes[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=06deWs4s,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-17T09:31:56.526+0000)
A nice drawn out chase -- usually through 2 sets of turrets -- can last 30+ seconds. Udyr is a tank/bruiser, not an assassin. He tries to slowly slap people to death while being an unkillable menace.
Even in a long drawn out chase, you're still not going to be taking damage the entire time. Often in a chase like that, you're using turtle to keep your passive up, not to absorb damage. I still think your 200-400 hp you would no longer be getting is still too high. This is intended to be a nerf, and it is going to hurt him a bit, but I don't think it will be nearly as much as you think.
Grozni ZVER1 votesUdyr is pure melee fully kitable martial artist. He's been balanced for about 3 years (like OP said). Now that the new cookie cutter item is presented, that everybody cries NOT to get nerfed, you instead nerf Udyr himself. This wont have this problem solved, since it's purely the item's fault, and not the Udyr. As for win rate, it's only start of the season, ofc it will be unrealistic percentages still, and cant be taken that seriously. We'll see how it goes.. My 2 cents is that Runic Echoes is the item to be reworked/hit, and not the champ himself.
The Bearded Bard1 votesFirst off, 'his' jungle item isn't Runic Echoes. That item was made for ap junglers. Udyr abuses it, that doesn't make it his.
Second off, Udyr hasn't really been balanced ever. Yeah you can kite him, but you certainly can't stop him from raping your base. He's probably the best backdoor champion in the game.
1YearNoFap1 votesRiot, Fuck You.
p.s. 
1YearNoFap1 votesill be honest, i agree 100% with the evelynn on this one. I am fucking mad that riot nerfed him so hard when he was so balanced. i will never play him until he gets RIGHT BACK to where he is. U FUCKEDDDEDEED MY MAINNNNN. WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THIS SHITTITITIT