It actually baffles me

BALDG1VEN BOOMER·Oct 20, 2017·80 votes·11,414 views

That Cho'Gath nerfs are still no where to be seen.

Hello?

214 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectarOct 20, 201759 votes

Out of curiosity, why do you feel like he is in need of any nerfs?

Darkdemon653Oct 20, 2017102 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=04eJWKFF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-20T23:18:30.942+0000)

Out of curiosity, why do you feel like he is in need of any nerfs?

His combined CC, damage output, and survivability is absurd.

CoIpsumOct 20, 201717 votes

{quoted}

His combined CC, damage output, and survivability is absurd.

So he plays his tank role well?

Darkdemon653Oct 20, 201769 votes

{quoted}

So he plays his tank role well?

He plays his role too well, yes.

AmazoXOct 21, 201715 votes

{quoted}

So he plays his tank role well?

Playing his tank role well is perfectly fine 1K+ True Damage on a tank doing perfectly fine TANK role wise is not FINE.

Imagine if this was Yasuo, People would lose their shit and flip.

KennysDreamGirlOct 21, 20171 votes

cho gath can do 1k true damage and nasus is an unkitable super tank that does700 damage every second with q..riot doesn't balance tanks well get over it

Ariel the CruelOct 21, 201726 votes

Susan is a Juggernaut. His only CC is a slow and death. Tank cho has 2 hard CC and almost no damage outside [near-]instant death to a squishy of his choice (in range).

Tenth LeperOct 21, 201722 votes

Silence is not hard cc

Ariel the CruelOct 21, 201710 votes

It's not "immobilizing" CC, but it still locks out part of your champion's functionality and therefore qualifies as "hard CC" in my book.

The Last BalladOct 21, 20179 votes

Crowd controls are grouped into one of two categories depending on whether or not the effect removes total control of the player's character. Hard CC completely removes all control of a character, while soft CC only partially removes it.

That's the league wiki definition of it.

Ariel the CruelOct 21, 20176 votes

By that definition, only Stuns (and displacements by inclusion) qualify. Pardon me if I have a hard time labeling Morgana's snare as soft CC. (>_>)

TerozuOct 21, 20172 votes

Your abilities arent controlling ur character. Its movement that counts as control.

Ariel the CruelOct 21, 20172 votes

Is the game using the abilities for me? I'm pretty sure I controlled when and where to use my character's abilities.

EnloctOct 21, 20173 votes

It also includes suppressions, charms, taunts, fears.

Ariel the CruelOct 21, 20172 votes

It does! Pardon the brain fart.

WimbledofyOct 21, 20174 votes

If a silence is hard cc since it locks out part of your champs functionality, then Nasus' wither is also hard cc since it locks out adc's from a part of their functionality as well.

Ariel the CruelOct 21, 20178 votes

Wither doesn't lock anything though. You can still move with reduced MS, and you can still AA with reduced AS. With silence, you can not use abilities (Trynd ult and Cleansing effects exempted).

As I interpret it: Soft CC inhibits functionality, Hard CC removes functionality.

kalima994Oct 21, 20174 votes

Yeah you can move 2 units lmao

CowseedOct 21, 20173 votes

Silence isn't hard CC

ElikainOct 21, 20172 votes

In order to reach high levels of ult damage, cho needs to have absurd HP value in the first place. The fact that he one-shots a squishy at that point as a tank is irrelevant because that's way into the late game and only when they get caught in his CC. Cho can't approach and leisurely take a bite out of them with no resistance from the other team.

Blackstone01Oct 21, 20172 votes

He achieves the high level of HP with stoneplate. Doubles his health (which counts as bonus health) which more than doubles his ult scaling. He doesn't need to be super late game either for that.

Ariel the CruelOct 21, 20172 votes

Stone-plate was psuedo-nerfed. 50% of the steroid is added as base health.

chipndip1Oct 21, 20172 votes

Dodge the knock up and Cho is literally unable to do anything.

He could buy RG, but so could Nasus, anyway.

GripaAviaraOct 20, 20178 votes

Well, does riot feel ok for a champion that builds full tank to deal almost 1k true damage after a burst of cc and silence (2 cc), when a squishy champ has like 2k late game?

I'm very curious to hear your design team opinion why cho is balanced

The Yetii RiderOct 20, 201713 votes

{quoted}

Well, does riot feel ok for a champion that builds full tank to deal almost 1k true damage after a burst of cc and silence (2 cc), when a squishy champ has like 2k late game?

I'm very curious to hear your design team opinion why cho is balanced

Probably because it's melee range and every other juggernaut can kill a 2k health squishy if they get into melee range.

Darius can do it multiple times.

SuperLuigiLXIVOct 20, 201710 votes

Darius doesn't have a knockup he can cast from a mile away.

The Yetii RiderOct 20, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Darius doesn't have a knockup he can cast from a mile away.

But he can do this to multiple targets.

Nuking one squishy champ in the late game isn't an issue. Zed has been able to do that for years. So has Rengar. Just stay away from him.

Sp33d Zer0Oct 21, 20178 votes

While I don't like Assassins style gameplay, that is not a fair equation, as Cho is a tank designed to take damage, and zed rengar are not.

SpiritOfOdysseusOct 21, 20173 votes

I love this whole "tanks are designed to take damage" thing. Have you ever seen a fucking behemoth in a movie like Godzilla, able to withstand cruise missile level of damage, knocking everyone into the air- but can't even kill a fly because their "damage" is too low.

Do you even know what a tank is? A big ass fucking machine capable of taking a lot of hits and yet also capable of destroying a house in a single shot of high explosive.

They're called TANKS not fucking highly resistant dummy-targets.

TeCoolMageOct 21, 20177 votes

Yeah we should make tanks able to consistently 1v1million or else they're extremely weak and need buffs!

Prestige EveOct 20, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=04eJWKFF,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2017-10-20T23:40:14.669+0000)

Probably because it's melee range and every other juggernaut can kill a 2k health squishy if they get into melee range.

Darius can do it multiple times.

Most champs can't generally do that with a single click of a button while also ignoring any form of resistance. The rest of his kit is irrelevant when he can simply flash and basically destroy a squishy with that one click. It's not about how badly he wastes flash or anything like that. It just shouldn't be able to happen. I don't know why people want to defend this. It's true damage for crying out loud. It should not be able to scale that high.

The Yetii RiderOct 21, 201718 votes

"With a single click of a button"

Cho'gath can't do it with a single click of a button either. He has to get to the enemy. This is why we defend it, this is why we think your crying is ridiculous. You think that it should not be the burden of the squishy character to kite away. We think it should, because it is the burden of the melee character to avoid being kited.

"Ignoring any form of resistance"

No one cares about Cho chomping on tanks. They care about him deleting squishies. Mages, assassins, supports and marksmen do not build resistances. The main thing that people are actually annoyed about is that the damage is not reduced by Phantom Dancer's passive, but again if you cannot kite you deserve to die.

"It's true damage for crying out loud. It should not be able to scale that high."

It's an ultimate, on an immobile champion. Immobile champions need something to compensate for them being immobile. For Cho'Gath, that compensation is high single target damage once per 60 seconds or so. That's fair. It's barely different from Veigar, except Cho'Gath is tankier and Veigar has more range.

DurzakaOct 21, 20172 votes

Darius is a Juggernaut.

Cho'gath is a Tank.

Very distinct difference

Variks the LoyalOct 21, 20171 votes

Is Jarvan IV a Tank or a Fighter?

DurzakaOct 21, 20171 votes

Hes a Fighter.

More specifically, a Diver.

Variks the LoyalOct 21, 20173 votes

Correct.

In game, though, he's tagged as a Tank, just like Cho'Gath.

With that in mind, do you still think Cho'Gath is a Tank, be it a Vanguard or a Warden? Or do you think ingame tags are outdated and unreliable?

5000000000000000Oct 21, 20174 votes

I'm pretty sure the ingame tags are outdated. They released an official list of subclasses a while ago, and updated it again with the removal of "controllers" and introducing "catchers."

Variks the LoyalOct 21, 20172 votes

Right you are. And this is why people's obsession with calling Cho'Gath a Tank baffles me.

We know the ingame tags are outdated, and Riot has a different class system. I suppose not everyone knows about it, but I would think most people who post on these boards know about it.

He's not a Tank. Riot calls him Unique, but personally, I'd just call him a Juggernaut.

5000000000000000Oct 21, 20173 votes

I think why people consider him a tank is because each of his spell except ultimate has heavy CC. Q is a 1 second AoE knockup followed by 60% slow for 1.5 seconds. W is a 1.6~~2.0 second AoE silence. E is a 30~~50% AoE slow for 1.5 seconds for each of the 3 next AAs.

A lot of juggernauts have CC, but often not as much as Cho'Gath. His CC is on the high side compared to juggernauts, although on the average/low side for tanks.

Darius has a small AoE pull followed by 40% slow (1 second), and a single target 90% slow (1 second). Garen has a 1.5-3.5 seconds silence. (that one is actually pretty high) Nasus has one slow that starts at 35% and grows to 47~95% over 5 seconds Udyr has a 1 second stun. etc.

I always thought of Cho'Gath as a high single target burst tank, but once I put down the CC duration, he's actually more like a hybrid between a juggernaut and a tank, except unlike most juggernauts, most of his damage is limited to a single target. After that burst, his role is mostly locking down enemies. I guess I see why Riot would categorize him as unique, although I'd agree that he's a tank/juggernaut hybrid.

rtbf214552814Oct 20, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=04eJWKFF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-10-20T23:18:30.942+0000)

Out of curiosity, why do you feel like he is in need of any nerfs?

limit the amount of minion stacks on his r, shouldnt get free stats easily

JaghataiOct 20, 201728 votes

Um they are ... you can only get 6 stack from minions. Everything else has to come from champs or epic monsters.

AmazoXOct 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Um they are ... you can only get 6 stack from minions. Everything else has to come from champs or epic monsters.

Gromp, Golem, Drakes are considered ''Epic Monsters''

The Stabby TabbyOct 21, 201713 votes

lolno, only drakes from that list

YumaS2AstralOct 21, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanguis Signum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=04eJWKFF,comment-id=00020002000000000000,timestamp=2017-10-21T04:41:22.803+0000)

lolno, only drakes from that list

and Rift Herald and Baron Nashor, don't forget.

YoungFarmerOct 20, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lonely Together,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=04eJWKFF,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2017-10-20T23:41:00.602+0000)

limit the amount of minion stacks on his r, shouldnt get free stats easily

He has a limit its 6. I think its good that he can have that many stacks, it means hes more likely to have no ult.

SpiritOfOdysseusOct 21, 20174 votes

I think its too good that ADCs have as many advantages as they have over the 100+ other champions that are too "good" 2 be meta. But oh lets nerf cho because the only late game champions MUST HAVE A GUN, CROSSBOW/BOW AND ARROW, or other ranged pr0sk1ll basic attack.

DuskDaUmbreonOct 20, 201721 votes

He feels impossible to fight. You can't beat him down in lane because of his passive, you can't beat him in late because of his ult.

He's a tank with the strongest nuke in the game (seriously. His ult can out-damage Veigar's ultimate). He has a lot of CC (including the highly-hated Silence), a lot of damage even before considering his ultimate's instakill (and without AP!), he has good wave clear, decent sieging capabilities, negligible mana costs, cool downs that aren't that high, moves at a reasonable speed (for a tank), can opt into a lot of items to run at insane speeds...

He just doesn't feel fair to fight in the slightest. And it's not even a Yasuo kind of unfair, where it just sucks to fight him, and you need to wait for him to outplay himself to blow him up. Because he can't really do anything to outplay himself. He just has the worst qualities in a champion. You can't do much to beat him in early (passive means you can't really poke him terribly well, and his actives mean he essentially autowins trades against you), at 6 he gets to nuke you, and in late-game only a Vayne can beat him, because of his insane health totals, tankiness, CC and ability to just obliterate anyone he chooses to. His only weakness is his massive hitbox. And that's a huge problem.

ThefrostyvikingOct 21, 20172 votes

Dunno if Veig is the best example here, he is kind of the mage with the highest burst potential in the entire game.

However stating that Cho can outburst Syndra is not wrong, at least against tanks and others who get some resistances.

And what you described......it kinda goes for all tanks? They all somewhat quick these days, extremely hard to kill and it's hard to play aggro into all of the currently played ones.

Cho is just the tank that is weaker earlier on but gets stronger later.

cocacolalipsOct 21, 20178 votes

He shouldn't be simultaneously one of the best tanks in the game and one of the best assassins in the game, the roles are contradictory and should be mutually exclusive, similarly to how Alistar was the best tank in the game and the best healer in the game before you gutted his heal and moved it from his E to his passive.

Infinitely scaling stats are a mistake anyway, they are balanced with the average game time in mind, and a game is rarely average, but often shorter or longer, and now you have a champion that is massively under tuned early on and massively over tuned later on and it feels terrible to play and play against. Having different power curves is fine, Infinite stats cross the line.

The simple fact that an outdated and braindead champion like Cho'Gath is pick/ban in every single competitive game shows how grossly over tuned he is, for a simple champion with very obvious weaknesses not to be exploitable at the highest level of play, he has to pack some of the most overpowered strengths to make up for it, and he does, he is simultaneously the biggest health sponge in the game while also packing tons of crowd control and he has the single best execute in the game.

EkyonKunOct 21, 201710 votes

I'm sorry, Nectar. I'm sure you mean well and all. But Cho'Gath in his current state is simply unhealthy. A tanky, CC monster that also has range, sustain, and tons of burst on top of sticking power with his E, not to mention his percent health scalings reward him for building tanky by offering even more damage.

One could say I'm listing only his strengths and none of his weaknesses, but what weaknesses does he have? Everything but his Q is almost assured to land, and even then, his Q isn't that difficult to land against anyone immobile. His one weakness is lack of mobility, which he can make up for with item 3742 item 3800 . But a ton of champions have lack mobility and have other weaknesses besides that. And if you really want to stretch, maybe you could say he has no DPS. Well, besides skirmishers and ADCs, very VERY few champions have any real DPS. His weaknesses are few and far between, and FAR from unique or punishing.